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Firstly - I know absolutely nothing about Daemons rules, but this seems a little to OP
Okay so I have a friend who collects Daemons, recently he has bought a Lord of Skulls. Apparentley he has this thing called Daemonic gifts (or something) and if he rolls really well (apparently its hard even though hes got it like every game) he get a +1 to all ++ Saves and he can re-roll all ++ saves... So I'm versing a LoW, with a 2++ and if he rolls a 1 he can just re-roll it because of this Daemonic gifts
Is that even possible!? This seems to OP to be real.

Thank you in advance!

It sure is. And Daemons aren't alone. Dark Eldar teamed up with Craftworld Eldar can do it, too.

If it mollifies your outrage, many large tournaments house rule it, either banning it outright, or ruling that the reroll only succeeds on a 4 or somesuch.

There is no daemonic reward that gives +1 to a model's invulnerable save, though there is a reward that allows the model to re-roll failed invulnerable saves (it's called Dark Blessing, iirc).

Now, there is an artifact (the Daemon equivalent of Space Marine relics) called the grimoire of true names, which increases a daemon's invuln save by 2 (so a 5++ would become a 3++), and there's also the malefic psychic power cursed earth, which improves a unit's save by 1.

There's so much darn setup required to pull it off perfectly, and it's honestly not too scary if you just ignore the unit that it's affecting.

Sure if it's a Daemon Prince you might want to come up with a plan fast, like throwing bodies at it to bog it down forever, but reality is, if he's investing that much points into something even like a ScreamerStar he's throwing a LOT of points away for durability, which means he's going to be lacking Offensive Power somewhere.

For starters, a Lord of Skulls can't take Demonic Rewards so if your friend is rolling up Gifts for it he's doing it wrong. A Lord of Skulls cannot get the 'Re-roll all Invulnerable Save' Greater Reward.

The best you could get a Lord of Skulls to is a 2+, not re-rollable. The only units that can get a 2+ Re-rollable are units of Tzeentch Demons due to their ability to re-roll saving throws of 1.

Lord of Skulls - 5+
Grimoire of True Names (+2) - 3+

Cursed Earth Psychic Power (+1) 2+
OR
Warp Storm (+1) - 2+

Keep in mind though that the Grimoire has a 1/3 chance to fail and instead make the save worse (Kairos Fateweaver can mitigate this though). There is also an equally likely chance that the Warp Storm will subtract from all Demon invulnerable saves as it will add to them.

Cursed Earth/Grimoire of True Names are the most likely combination, but remember both those require another model to be casting the power and/or holding the Grimoire (probably a Tzeentch Herald, Demon Prince or Lord of Change). You could try targetting that model to remove the support first.

Even if he has a rerollable 2++ throw a ton of shots at it. I've found that models with big saves like that have average toughness of 4 and only a few wounds. Pump a ton of bolter / small arms fire into it. Force a ton of saves and he WILL fail a few.

Or as mentioned - ignore it and take out the rest of his army. ig he's spending on super durable Death Star combos maybe he's lacking In other areas. Punish him there.

 DarthSpader wrote:
Even if he has a rerollable 2++ throw a ton of shots at it. I've found that models with big saves like that have average toughness of 4 and only a few wounds. Pump a ton of bolter / small arms fire into it. Force a ton of saves and he WILL fail a few.

That sounds reasonable. In order to kill a T4 W3 Herald of Tzeentch with a 2++ rerollable, you just need to get 3 x 2 x 1.5 x 36 bolter shots off at him. That's just 324 bolter shots, so you should be fine.

Although, I must say I am most curious to learn how you got your 162 Tactical Marines into rapid fire range of his Jetbike-fast Screamerstar.

I think it is Daemon of Tzneetch, come with 4++ rerolling 1s, crused earth for plua one inv save, Grimore add another one, that becomes 2++ rerolling 1s.......

The masque can do it too. She rerolls all failed saves. However she's nowhere near worth the investment of her own points let alone the buffs.

Tzeentch Daemons only have a 5++ by default. Grimoire adds 2.

Also the Lord of Skulls isn't a Daemon of Tzeentch, and afaik there's no way for it to get a re-rollable 2++, only a 2+ (Grimoire + Cursed Earth/Warpstorm/Forwarning).

Best advice, shoot the model with the Grimoire. This will remove the +2 reducing the save to a 4++. Typically the model holding it won't be that tough (T3-4 with 2W, 5++) unless they put it on a DP or a Greater Daemon,but even they aren't as tough as a LoS.

You can make a 3++ rerollable and even 2++ rerollable purely with the Inquisition Codex. Take a henchmen unit with Crusaders (have a storm shield for 3++) and a priest for war hymens. Pass a leadership test and you can pick rerollable saves for the unit. If you take a psyker in the unit then you can roll on the Daemonology: Sanctic discipline. If you get sanctuary then you can boost that invuln to 2++. Take GK allies for a far more reliable source of sanctuary with a libby. I heard that the sisters codex can take priest and add them to a squad so throw them into a squad of storm shield space marines and a GK libby with sanctuary

 DarthSpader wrote:
Even if he has a rerollable 2++ throw a ton of shots at it. I've found that models with big saves like that have average toughness of 4 and only a few wounds. Pump a ton of bolter / small arms fire into it. Force a ton of saves and he WILL fail a few.

Failing a 2++ rerollable is 1 in 36. You have to hit, wound, and then they have to roll 2 1s per wound. There is a reason that the ITC has rules making 2+ rerollables a 2+/4+ roll as it drops it down to 1 in 12 which is still incredibly powerful.

Anecdotal evidence but I had a game against Decurion Necrons where my 1K+ points of Tau, (mostly fire warriors and pathfinders with some broadsides, ion hammerhead, devilfish, kroot, and even fusion crisis suits while all supported by an Ethereal). The Necron Overlord stood in rapid fire range of my entire army as I unloaded 2 full rounds of shooting into the thing and did a total of 1 wound between its 2+ rerollable, (4++ rerolling 1s vs the fusions), plus its 4++ reanimation rerolling 1s. I did 1 unsaved wound when im shooting 40+ str 4 shots, 125+ str 5 shots , 12x str 7 shots, 6x str 8 AP1, etc and all while supported with markerlights for BS5 a good amount of the shooting. This same group chewed through a canoptek harvest formation and mowed down the sword + board lychstar supporting the lord before they could get into charge range. Throwing dice at 2+ armor is fine but throwing dice at 2+ rerollable is impossibly difficult.

It's possible. Demons can do it

I just realized, that it would be cool to run a full sized squad of warp talons\possessed grimoired up with a suitable choppy character once tzeentch daemonkin comes out. 2+ rerollable on those units would be downright silly. Also would make the warp talons alot more survivable when they deep strike, making their blind thing not as risky. Not to mention daemon icons should affect them too.

Tzeentch can have quite a few cheap sources of cursed earth\forewarning to make it possible.

Funny how thats going to be a thing but I suggested giving Ghazghkuul a 2++ Non rerollable and people flipped out

Could actually be a decent counter to scatterbike spam. Two full units of 2++ rerollable warp talons dropping midfield, forcing them to stay in their backfield or risk boosting into your lines. Lots of ap3 attacks there that jink can't save them from.

Decent against wraithguard too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is of course assuming TDK will have access to those units.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 DarthSpader wrote:
Even if he has a rerollable 2++ throw a ton of shots at it. I've found that models with big saves like that have average toughness of 4 and only a few wounds. Pump a ton of bolter / small arms fire into it. Force a ton of saves and he WILL fail a few.

That sounds reasonable. In order to kill a T4 W3 Herald of Tzeentch with a 2++ rerollable, you just need to get 3 x 2 x 1.5 x 36 bolter shots off at him. That's just 324 bolter shots, so you should be fine.

lol

Sarcasm is horrifying when you use it.

Tzeentxh heralds are T3 W2.

I don't know what army you play, but anyway. Tie down his 2++ rerollable unit with a tarpit, and leave them there and deal with the rest of his army.

Alternatively, house rule it like the bigger tournaments have FAQ'd it, to be 2++ / 4++.

 Vankraken wrote:
and a priest for war hymens

A relatively cheap way of helping you deal with the daemons is a Culexus. If you can get him close enough to whoever is holding the Grimoire the rest should be a bit easier.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Tzeentxh heralds are T3 W2.

Not when they are on a Disc

 CrownAxe wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Tzeentxh heralds are T3 W2.

Not when they are on a Disc

It doesn't matter much whether he's on a disk or not... The bearer of the Grimoire can never gain the +2 bonus to his own save!

Sure, if the Tzherald is in a Screamerstar, he's still difficult to pick out. But Screamerstar is only good at not dying. It's damage output is pretty damn weak in 7th, making it more of a noob slayer list. (hint: if he puts up a re-rollable 2++, just ignore the freaking unit or feed it some chaff/tarpit)
If the Grimoire however is on a DP or LoC, focus fire that gakker down! Again, 7th nerfed FMC's survivability overall, and Daemons can't flood the board with them like Tyranids can... A fully tooled LoC is a little over 300pts, while a decently kitted DP is typically 270+ pts. Point your anti-air at them, and/or your small arms. Only use your typical anti-MC/tank weaponry on them once they're grounded.

Yup, because this game should totally have a 2++ rerollable save in it, am I right guys?

I, for one, am looking forward to a new Daemons Codex.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Yup, because this game should totally have a 2++ rerollable save in it, am I right guys?

I, for one, am looking forward to a new Daemons Codex.

inb4 the new codex allows multiple units to get re-rollable 2++s.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Yup, because this game should totally have a 2++ rerollable save in it, am I right guys?

I, for one, am looking forward to a new Daemons Codex.

Fair point, definitely needs to be house ruled out.

At the same time, I do hope you'll take that same attitude to broken things in your own Codex, because I've seen the horror stories about current 'Crons and it's not pretty...

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Funny how thats going to be a thing but I suggested giving Ghazghkuul a 2++ Non rerollable and people flipped out

Because nobody should have a 2+ invuln save in the first place.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Yup, because this game should totally have a 2++ rerollable save in it, am I right guys?

I, for one, am looking forward to a new Daemons Codex.

Fair point, definitely needs to be house ruled out.

At the same time, I do hope you'll take that same attitude to broken things in your own Codex, because I've seen the horror stories about current 'Crons and it's not pretty...

I understand. But I'm in a mindset where I actually field things like the Annihilation Nexus, C'Tans, Monoliths, Named HQs (Like Anrakyr and Imotekh, le gasp!), and full units of Immortals. I understand Necrons can be just as broken, but I refuse to play them like that. Or this game like that, in general.

But for real doh, a 2++ rerollable save really shouldn't exist. I'll stand behind that to my grave.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Funny how thats going to be a thing but I suggested giving Ghazghkuul a 2++ Non rerollable and people flipped out

Because nobody should have a 2+ invuln save in the first place.

This guy gets it! Here, have a cookie!

Om nom nom nom nom

Although the Night Shields weren't that bad, since they'd go away as soon as you'd fail a save, just gotta have e'm be unable to be rerolled.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Funny how thats going to be a thing but I suggested giving Ghazghkuul a 2++ Non rerollable and people flipped out

Because nobody should have a 2+ invuln save in the first place.

The Shadowfield is OK when it's not rerollable because it is on a t3 model and is removed if you fail it once.

On a T5 character, not so much...

I'd rather have a removeable 2+ rather than a permanent 3+

This crap is why the ITC ruled the best reroll you can get on an invun save is a 4+. Its also one of the reasons I don't run my mechanics without a culexus assassin for canceling out super annoying buffs.