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 Psienesis wrote:
The personal Kinetic Barriers drop after, like, 2 hits.

The games we are drawing this "information" from are designed to be both balanced and challenging for players, not to create factual evidence.
If we use gameplay as evidence then the krogan will win easily. Space marines fail 1 in 3 of their saves, so all the krogan has to do it shoot 3 times with a pistol.

And gunships/IFVs have worse armor than WW2 Light tanks since you can knock them out with infantry small arms.

But the number of barriers doesn't change the number of shots needed to drop one. You might have 10 barriers up, but a burst of 20 shots from an SMG eats them all (or 2 shots from a sniper rifle).

And, for both Halo and Mass Effect, the highest difficulty is generally considered "canon" since that is what presents the most challenge. The setting otherwise seems like any chump with an assault rifle could have done this.

 Psienesis wrote:
And, for both Halo and Mass Effect, the highest difficulty is generally considered "canon" since that is what presents the most challenge.

What? No. That's stupid. I don't even know where you're pulling that out of. Platinum difficulty is most certainly NOT canon.

I would in fact argue that the cutscenes are the only parts that could be considered canon since the gameplay and level of difficulty defeating enemies changes between settings whereas the actions in the cut-scenes do not.

Also does ME have any novels or literature to give some fluff?

 Melissia wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
And, for both Halo and Mass Effect, the highest difficulty is generally considered "canon" since that is what presents the most challenge.

What? No. That's stupid. I don't even know where you're pulling that out of. Platinum difficulty is most certainly NOT canon.

Afaik, highest difficulty = cannon is only something Halo had, as per Word Of God from the creators.

It was Heroic difficulty iirc.

Ignore this, discussion marched on way faster than I thought.

In which case Krogan Battlemasters are dropped by an unaugmented human with a riflebutt to the back of the skull.

ME1 melee is brutal.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I would in fact argue that the cutscenes are the only parts that could be considered canon since the gameplay and level of difficulty defeating enemies changes between settings whereas the actions in the cut-scenes do not.

Also does ME have any novels or literature to give some fluff?

I agree with your first point.

And yes, it does.

 Melissia wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
And, for both Halo and Mass Effect, the highest difficulty is generally considered "canon" since that is what presents the most challenge.

What? No. That's stupid. I don't even know where you're pulling that out of. Platinum difficulty is most certainly NOT canon.

Seconded.

It makes no sense. The enemies in higher level difficulties down you in a couple of shots, but you must empty entire clips into them.
What does this show? That Mass effect humans are ridiculously weak, or super humanly strong?

 Selym wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
And, for both Halo and Mass Effect, the highest difficulty is generally considered "canon" since that is what presents the most challenge.

What? No. That's stupid. I don't even know where you're pulling that out of. Platinum difficulty is most certainly NOT canon.

Afaik, highest difficulty = cannon is only something Halo had, as per Word Of God from the creators.

Either way, I know one thing-- Platinum difficulty is NOT canon. It's pretty much explicitly created to be an impossible challenge that breaks the normal rules of the game (and in fact is harder than ME3 single player's highest setting).

One might be able to argue Gold is canon, but if you go by that standard, then a Phantom would have to be as tough to kill as a Space Marine, and I just don't see that.

I would like to see your sources for which difficulties are canon, Melissia. You make a lot of assertions, but do you have links to any dev blogs, tweets or whatever they use?

Also, I played Gold, and I assure you that Phantoms are still far easier to kill than Astartes.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I would like to see your sources for which difficulties are canon, Melissia. You make a lot of assertions, but do you have links to any dev blogs, tweets or whatever they use?

You're the one making the baseless, asinine, and irrational assertion that we MUST ABSOLUTELY USE the highest difficulties.

Back up your own damn assertion for once.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
And, for both Halo and Mass Effect, the highest difficulty is generally considered "canon" since that is what presents the most challenge.

What? No. That's stupid. I don't even know where you're pulling that out of. Platinum difficulty is most certainly NOT canon.

Seconded.

It makes no sense. The enemies in higher level difficulties down you in a couple of shots, but you must empty entire clips into them.
What does this show? That Mass effect humans are ridiculously weak, or super humanly strong?

Shepard's journey in the Mass Effect series is not meant to be easy. The galaxy is not intended to be fair, the enemies are not intended to be push-overs. That's what makes it an epic, heroic event of legendary proportions.

If you can wade through a score or more of enemies and slaughter them with naught but brief pauses to catch one's breath and allow one's shields to repop, then just about any idiot could accomplish what Shepard accomplishes.

The same is true of Halo, of course. If the Covenant were as stupid and easy as they are on the "medium" levels of gameplay, then Master Chief isn't really needed to do the things he does... or, alternately, the Covenant aren't really that big of a threat, and the game is more a reflection on the results of rampant military spending without regard to national infrastructure.

Furthermore, ME3 itself says normal difficulty is the way the game is meant to be played. In other words, "normal" is canon. And, I should note, in ME3 multipalyer, normal is equivalent to Bronze. Anything above normal is just an additional challenge for the player; anything above bronze is an additional challenge for the multiplayer aspect.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
And, for both Halo and Mass Effect, the highest difficulty is generally considered "canon" since that is what presents the most challenge.

What? No. That's stupid. I don't even know where you're pulling that out of. Platinum difficulty is most certainly NOT canon.

Seconded.

It makes no sense. The enemies in higher level difficulties down you in a couple of shots, but you must empty entire clips into them.
What does this show? That Mass effect humans are ridiculously weak, or super humanly strong?

Shepard's journey in the Mass Effect series is not meant to be easy. The galaxy is not intended to be fair, the enemies are not intended to be push-overs. That's what makes it an epic, heroic event of legendary proportions.

If you can wade through a score or more of enemies and slaughter them with naught but brief pauses to catch one's breath and allow one's shields to repop, then just about any idiot could accomplish what Shepard accomplishes.

The same is true of Halo, of course. If the Covenant were as stupid and easy as they are on the "medium" levels of gameplay, then Master Chief isn't really needed to do the things he does... or, alternately, the Covenant aren't really that big of a threat, and the game is more a reflection on the results of rampant military spending without regard to national infrastructure.

That actually sounds more plausible than the Halo storyline.

 Melissia wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I would like to see your sources for which difficulties are canon, Melissia. You make a lot of assertions, but do you have links to any dev blogs, tweets or whatever they use?

You're the one making the baseless, asinine, and irrational assertion that we MUST ABSOLUTELY USE the highest difficulties.

Back up your own damn assertion for once.

What?

When did I make that assertion?

Even if I had, it does not excuse you from backing up your own.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Even if I had, it does not excuse you from backing up your own.

Already done.

 Melissia wrote:
Furthermore, ME3 itself says normal difficulty is the way the game is meant to be played. In other words, "normal" is canon. And, I should note, in ME3 multipalyer, normal is equivalent to Bronze. Anything above normal is just an additional challenge for the player; anything above bronze is an additional challenge for the multiplayer aspect.

If you want a cited source on this, simply open ME3 up and look at the description the game itself gives for the difficulties. Normal explicitly states this is the way the game is meant to be experienced.

 Melissia wrote:
Already done.

Again, I ask you to provide a quote for me saying the highest difficulty is the right one.

And as for 'evidence', if you mean some 'the ideal game experience' blurb at the difficulty selection screen, that doesn't imply anything related to game lore. It only means it is the ideal gameplay experience (for most people, anyway). Nothing more, nothing less.

 Ashiraya wrote:
And as for 'evidence', if you mean some 'the ideal game experience' blurb at the difficulty selection screen, that doesn't imply anything related to game lore. It only means it is the ideal gameplay experience.

Do you have any evidence supporting the ludicrous idea that Insane and Platinum (which is actually built to be harder than insane difficulty) are canon?

The game itself says normal is the way it's meant to be, and everything else is either more or less of a challenge... for the player. Given that no evidence has been provided to contradict this, I suggest this stands.

Do you have any evidence that it is, beyond some vague gameplay number tuning to accomodate the average gamer's skill (which again has nothing to do with game lore and thus isn't really evidence at all)?

You're ascribing the value of an average gameplay experience to also mean lore-correct portrayals, a relation that, well, doesn't exist.

And for the third time, I ask you for a quote that shows where I said:

 Melissia wrote:
You're the one making the baseless, asinine, and irrational assertion that we MUST ABSOLUTELY USE the highest difficulties..

Because you can't just tell me that what I say is baseless, irrational and asinine, and when I don't take that at face value and ask for evidence, you immediately cease to adress the point.

Well without converting these things into arbritary game stats ( which we all know are a HORRIBLE way of describing the fluff of space marines unless you use the movie marines rules)


lets do this with feats.

I don't know Krogan well enough to speak, but here are some SM facts.

*Around 7-8ft tall.
*Extremely high running speeds. Has been described as capable of catching a land speeder ( this of course may be non-canon) A good guess would be to say 35mph.
*Wears powered armor that increases reflexes, has built in energy reserves, and has limited self-repair/healing abilities. Also has on-board targeting systems, along with in-built vox and other features.
*Primary firearm liquifies humans when hit from the huge amount of mass being propelled at rocket speeds and then (sometimes) exploding.
*Strength is defined as 'superhuman'
*Vet would have centuries of combat experience.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Do you have any evidence that it is, beyond some vague gameplay number tuning

I don't need anything more than this, because even this is more evidence than anyone has produced for the ludicrous and baseless assertion that insane and platinum must be canon. And the fact that you can't provide anything to contradict it is proof that you know that I'm right.

 Melissia wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Do you have any evidence that it is, beyond some vague gameplay number tuning

I don't need anything more than this, because even this is more evidence than anyone has produced for the ludicrous and baseless assertion that insane and platinum must be canon. And the fact that you can't provide anything to contradict it is proof that you know that I'm right.

Notice that I never asserted which difficulty is canon, as you will find if you look through my posts, despite you saying I did and saying how terrible that was. I only question the assumption that normal is canon, because the only evidence that has only looks like evidence, and isn't really when you look at what it means.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
lets do this with feats.

Hoyt linked fethtons a few pages back.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
And, for both Halo and Mass Effect, the highest difficulty is generally considered "canon" since that is what presents the most challenge.

What? No. That's stupid. I don't even know where you're pulling that out of. Platinum difficulty is most certainly NOT canon.

Seconded.

It makes no sense. The enemies in higher level difficulties down you in a couple of shots, but you must empty entire clips into them.
What does this show? That Mass effect humans are ridiculously weak, or super humanly strong?

Shepard's journey in the Mass Effect series is not meant to be easy. The galaxy is not intended to be fair, the enemies are not intended to be push-overs. That's what makes it an epic, heroic event of legendary proportions.

If you can wade through a score or more of enemies and slaughter them with naught but brief pauses to catch one's breath and allow one's shields to repop, then just about any idiot could accomplish what Shepard accomplishes.

Not disagreeing with this, the enemies in a game need to be challenging to make it enjoyable.

However, what I take issue with is the fact that many normal humans are much tougher than shephard on higher difficulties. I don't mean they are simply a difficult fight, I mean they can literally tank a clip to the face and keep on going. If we are going to use a level of difficulty from a game to use as the 'normal' state, then it should be the one where another human enemy has the same durability and damage output as shephard.

Personally I feel that the halo devs only released that comment about heroic being canon simply because they made their most basic enemies to be walking pinatas who were no real threat. On normal they are just a joke.

Well from Hoyt's feats I would say that the Krogan doesn't even have a chance.

Its pretty much a land-slide victory .

That's actually pretty sad I was hoping for it to be closer.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Lets do this with feats.

I don't know Krogan well enough to speak, but here are some SM facts.

Krogans:

Around 7-8 feet tall (Warlords tower over common Krogans, who themselves are taller and more massive than humans).

Charging Krogans run as fast as elite human soldiers in the ME universe, but with far more stamina. Keep in mind, elite human soldiers in the ME universe are cybernetically enhanced with superior muscle and bone structure, as described in the lore from ME1.

Krogans wear powered armor, but what features an individual krogan's armor has varies too widely to speculate on what is "normal" because even amongst professional militaries there is a great deal of customization going on. However, by the time of ME3, all Krogans have shields in their armor, and throughout the entire series, their armor is extremely durable and protective by the standards of the setting-- and armor only gets stronger and stronger as the series goes on.

Primary Firearm, the Claymore shotgun, which started out as a heavy shotgun too powerful for a human to use without shattering their limbs from the recoil. Further advances in technology allowed it to have even greater firepower while reducing the recoil to the point where humans can use it without too much risk of injury. It turns human sized enemies in to gibs, cutting through their shields and armor to destroy them in a single hit. This weapon is almost invariably heavily modified; Wrex had a Claymore that could fire at least two shots before reloading, compared to the normal one shot, while in multiplayer, the common mods for it include heavier barrel and smart choke, both of which drastically raise its accuracy and ability to do damage through armor. As noted, however, the ME setting does not have the same level of standardization as in 40k, as such it's difficult to say what any individual battlemaster would be wielding. Heavy shotguns are, however, the "norm" for Krogans.

In both single and multiplayer, Krogans are capable of feats with their bare strength that humans need to use technology to accomplish. Grunt, a young and inexperienced Krogan soldier (not a battlemaster) is capable of lifting up and throwing what is effectively a living artillery piece with minimal effort. Wrex effortlessly knocked a similar creature aside. In multiplayer, their strength as well as their blood rage ability allows them to rain blows down on enemies that do more damage than the standard soldier's monomolecular edged blades made of flash-forged (and still glowing hot) metal, as well as all the other countless variations of omni-weapon.

Regarding experience, the definition of a Krogan Battlemaster is something that is not easily pinned down. However, I would argue that the title is not given to just any young Krogan with biotic powers, but rather must be earned-- the lore mentions that normally young Krogans who join a clan's army serve under a battlemaster. It's not simply those who have biotic powers, but those who are extremely experienced in the ways of combat. Indeed, there's other kinds of Krogan biotics (Shamans, namely) that aren't necessarily combat specialists. Krogans normally die young due to violence, but those that survive long enough to be considered Battlemasters or Warlords are true veterans, fighting in countless wars, battles, and skirmishes over the course of hundreds of years. Matriarch Aethyta's father, for example was over 1000 years old, and Warlord Okeer was around 1200 and still capable of fighting. So once again, this varies widely based on your definition of a "Battlemaster".

It seems like an even fight, all things considered, though I would still say the Battlemaster has an edge because of biotic powers. Especially if you go with the standard vanguard power which is given to battlemasters in multiplayer, Biotic Charge. If the Krogan Battlemaster opened up with that, the space Marine would be at a massive disadvantage, as he would be instantly thrown off-balance and stunned for the few crucial seconds it takes to land a hammer blow or aim a claymore at his helmet, blowing his head in to scraps of bone and grey matter.

I think I would go with the Krogan Battlemaster because of the Biotic powers. He's basically a special Krogan as opposed to a "normal" Marine. A Krogan Battlemaster's equivalent for Space Marines would actually be a Librarian. That would be a fairer fight.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Well from Hoyt's feats I would say that the Krogan doesn't even have a chance.

Its pretty much a land-slide victory .

That's actually pretty sad I was hoping for it to be closer.

Agreed. Krogan are extremely impressive in their own context, but this is just out of their league entirely.