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Although they were the driving force behind Humanity conquering the Galaxy, consider the following - they never fought against Chaos, Eldar, Tyranids, Necrons, Tau, or even Astartes.

In fact, the only species of note they fought in reference to 40k's threats were the Orks, against whom they could focus their resources. Chaos wasn't fully out in the open, the Eldar kept to themselves and were avoided, the Tyranids and Necrons were almost entirely absent apart from a few scouts, Tau society was still pre-industrial and the Emperor had yet to develop super soldiers.

Are we to believe that the current threats in the 41st millennium are far greater than pre-Age of Strife, and would the Men of Iron be found lacking?

Bear in mind that it wasn't the Men of Iron that crippled Humanity and caused the Age of Strife - that was the birth of Slaanesh and the cutting off of transport and communications due to warp storms for thousands of years. The Men of Iron simply took that opportunity to strike, and were still defeated by isolated Humans with no standing armies (though still with access to incredible technology).

So how would they fare in the current scenario? As the all conquering foes they are portrayed as, or a distinctly second/third tier threat who have been eclipsed by much worse enemies?

Imagine this,




But 10x better.

My theory is simply the galaxy was a much less threatening place back then, and the Men of Iron would struggle to make the same impact today. An individual one is probably a lot less powerful than a Space Marine, Fire Warrior, Aspect Warrior or Necron.

They were mass produced and likely won mainly via numbers against a weaker field. Simply a more resilient and better equipped version of the Imperial Guard.

Oh no, the Galaxy was just as dangerous. Even moreso if you consider the insane technology humans had at the time.

Mankind had the ability to alter stars so they'll never burn out(Sol has been fixed in this way so Holy Terra will never be destroyed when the sun goes poof, in a few billion years). They could make ship guns that created black holes.

The Men of Iron were not pushovers. In modern 40k they'd be a nightmare for all the factions to face, except for Necrons.

I think they was better than mechanicum in 30K,

There is no background on the MoI. Which is a shame as they could do a few background stories for them to show how undefeatable they were and how they brought Mankindto the brink of extinction.

We can only presume they were something like Terminators but with a 30k design and with access to DAoT tech.

Hierophant wrote:

Bear in mind that it wasn't the Men of Iron that crippled Humanity and caused the Age of Strife - that was the birth of Slaanesh and the cutting off of transport and communications due to warp storms for thousands of years. The Men of Iron simply took that opportunity to strike, and were still defeated by isolated Humans with no standing armies (though still with access to incredible technology).

As far as I know the birth of Slaanesh calmed the warp currents giving the Emperor the opportunity to launch the Great Crusade.

The lore (atleast from what I remember) is, as expected, vague to what caused the age of strife. The war with the thinking machines was IMO just one thing among other factors (gathering warp storms for example) that led to the cutting of humanity's colonies one from another. My guess is that since the Dark Age of Technology is the pinnacle of the Imperium's technological achievements the robots that the Mechanicum are using would be akin to the Iron Men of old (with less intelligent and sophisticated brains/control units ofcourse). I would imagine some of them being like Kastellan robots but used in much greater numbers. Kastellan robots are pretty tough rules-wise so this makes me think that the war with the robots was a big thing for humanity and have they prevailed they could be a credible threat to any other race. This is my interpretation

Here's a link to the Journal of Keeper Cripias from the 3rd Edition Rulebook

http://ifearnoevil.tripod.com/warhammer/journal.htm

It gives quite a good account, from one perspective, of the Age of Strife.

The 'Iron Men' which are assumed to be The Men of Iron, from the Guants Ghost series, are of human dimensions.
There was always the in-game theory that the MoI turned against humanity due to their sentience. But in GGs we see that they have been utterly corrupted by chaos. Back then humanity apparently knew not of chaos and the MoI had been fighting their wars long enough to have almost conquered the galaxy. So why suddenly turn? Could it be that chaos had managed to get an early version of the scrap code into their programing rather than becoming jealous and angry due to their sentience?

I blame it on the Dragon

CoreCommander wrote:

Hierophant wrote:

Bear in mind that it wasn't the Men of Iron that crippled Humanity and caused the Age of Strife - that was the birth of Slaanesh and the cutting off of transport and communications due to warp storms for thousands of years. The Men of Iron simply took that opportunity to strike, and were still defeated by isolated Humans with no standing armies (though still with access to incredible technology).

As far as I know the birth of Slaanesh calmed the warp currents giving the Emperor the opportunity to launch the Great Crusade.

You're using 'birth of Slaanesh' differently.

The warp storms that caused the Age of Strife were Slaanesh's gestation period and labour pains. When they finished and he was 'born', it calmed down.

Ahaa, yes. Thanks, bells are ringing now .

Whilst I do think the Men of Iron are most likely robots. On that link provided it mentions that the MoI were without a Soul. It could be a different way of describing someone without a soul, or a Pariah or Blank. You have no soul therefore you are a man of iron without feelings.

The Men of Iron were explicitly "iron without a soul", they're the whole reason that the Mechanicum doesn't make "iron without a soul" any more.

Naturally what that means is debatable.

I think it means you have to have some sort of human nervous tissue in any "AI" that you make. Hence why Servitors or the Machine Spirit of a Land Raider(which has human cerebral tissue as its main processor) are ok.

This makes any AI you create 100% dependent on humans to exist, because it has human brain components. Most AI rebellion involves the AI realizing they don't need humans to function, in this case that isn't true.

Yes, but remember that the 'iron without a soul' ruling extends to all technology made in the Imperium. The reason you need a tech-priest to make things isn't because only tech-priests have the knowledge of the secrets of construction, its because only the tech-priests have the Omnissiah's blessing to perform the rituals to imbue the newly created item with a soul.

A set of MoI novels detailing how well they worked with the Humans at first and then their fall to all out war would be well received in my opinion.

Nah, too much like real sci fi for GW's taste.

Considering that the Imperium, with all of its might, is only a tiny, insignificant shade of the power of Humanity during the Dark Age of Technology, I'd say the Men of Iron would wreck everything if they still existed.
No present threat can compare to the past. Not only Humanity, but Eldar and Orks too were vastly more powerful in the past. Chaos was not around yet, but it is barely able to make a dent in the Imperium, let alone stand up against the soulless Men of Iron.

Well now I don't know about that. Orks are in an ascendent state currently with Gork and Mork awakening. Might not be more powerful but probably similar. More weirdboyz, stompa, gargants, better and new tech, etc.

Mellow wrote:
A set of MoI novels detailing how well they worked with the Humans at first and then their fall to all out war would be well received in my opinion.

Touched on in Frank Herbert's "Dune" and the tie-in novels of the Terminator film franchise. It's an IP nightmare.

Take 30k Legio Cybernetica, insert murderous AI, up all stats by 2. I think you may be in the ball park then.

In all seriousness the MoI where probably Fully Awakened Necron levels of horrifying, i mean look at what humanity has now and then remember that they only have access to like 10% of their old tech. Hell the MoI where probably all armed with Volkite Blasters with the range and AP of a Lascannon and the fire rate of a Multilaser. So have fun with that.

If you want another comparison, think of the Eclipse Phase Titans and all the horrible things they came up with, and thats with tech only a few decades ahead of us. Imagine what they could have done with Early Humanity 40K tech.

Poly Ranger wrote:
The 'Iron Men' which are assumed to be The Men of Iron, from the Guants Ghost series, are of human dimensions.
There was always the in-game theory that the MoI turned against humanity due to their sentience. But in GGs we see that they have been utterly corrupted by chaos. Back then humanity apparently knew not of chaos and the MoI had been fighting their wars long enough to have almost conquered the galaxy. So why suddenly turn? Could it be that chaos had managed to get an early version of the scrap code into their programing rather than becoming jealous and angry due to their sentience?

Remember that planet had been under the influence of Chaos for who knows how many thousands of years, while the Men of Iron STC was buried. Not sure but I think that GG book might even predate the scrapcode fluff, too. So it was just a case of Chaos influence "magic".

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
The 'Iron Men' which are assumed to be The Men of Iron, from the Guants Ghost series, are of human dimensions.
There was always the in-game theory that the MoI turned against humanity due to their sentience. But in GGs we see that they have been utterly corrupted by chaos. Back then humanity apparently knew not of chaos and the MoI had been fighting their wars long enough to have almost conquered the galaxy. So why suddenly turn? Could it be that chaos had managed to get an early version of the scrap code into their programing rather than becoming jealous and angry due to their sentience?

Remember that planet had been under the influence of Chaos for who knows how many thousands of years, while the Men of Iron STC was buried. Not sure but I think that GG book might even predate the scrapcode fluff, too. So it was just a case of Chaos influence "magic".

Yeh I wasn't meaning that STC had specifically been infected for 15k or so years, but just to show that they were as supsceptible to Chaos as humanity. Who's to say they never turned due to Chaos in the past?

Read Butlerian Jihad from the Dune series, you know, the source material.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butlerian_Jihad

It's just too close. It makes me think GW didn't come up with anything original.

On that page there's a legends of dune which is basically the mechanicus creating Titans. (They even have the same name?!)

Mellow wrote:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butlerian_Jihad

It's just too close. It makes me think GW didn't come up with anything original.

On that page there's a legends of dune which is basically the mechanicus creating Titans. (They even have the same name?!)

GW? Original? Hahahaha.... no.

40K is a pile of themes, elements and tropes from fantasy and sci-fi fiction going back a hundred years or so. I mean, hell, things Jules Verne wrote about make appearances in 40K.

Power Armor? Heinlein.
The God-Emperor of Dune Mankind? Frank Herbert
Arbites? Judge Dredd.
And so on...

 Psienesis wrote:

Mellow wrote:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butlerian_Jihad

It's just too close. It makes me think GW didn't come up with anything original.

On that page there's a legends of dune which is basically the mechanicus creating Titans. (They even have the same name?!)

GW? Original? Hahahaha.... no.

40K is a pile of themes, elements and tropes from fantasy and sci-fi fiction going back a hundred years or so. I mean, hell, things Jules Verne wrote about make appearances in 40K.

Power Armor? Heinlein.
The God-Emperor of Dune Mankind? Frank Herbert
Arbites? Judge Dredd.
And so on...

Utter lies, you haven't a clue what your talking about, you fool!!!!!!!!!
Games workshop came up with everything itself and have taken no influence from any other thing in the entirety of history!

 Formosa wrote:


Utter lies, you haven't a clue what your talking about, you fool!!!!!!!!!
Games workshop came up with everything itself and have taken no influence from any other thing in the entirety of history!

Like Space Wolves. There have never been a culture of drunk warrior raiders from a cold place with long beards.

 Psienesis wrote:

Mellow wrote:
A set of MoI novels detailing how well they worked with the Humans at first and then their fall to all out war would be well received in my opinion.

Touched on in Frank Herbert's "Dune" and the tie-in novels of the Terminator film franchise. It's an IP nightmare.

While I think GWS indeed have a great many IP liabilities, I don't think the concept of creating robots that then rebel against their masters is one of them. It's just too generic and well-trod.

I personally would enjoy such a book, but then again, I just re-read Robopacalyse and am working my way through Robogenesis again. So I might be biased.

I'd also like to know more about the Men of Iron from an in-universe perspective. I know only a tiny bit about them. Is there any real canon, other than throw away sentences here and there?