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The rise of the Men of Iron happened so long ago to the people of M40 as to be near-mythical. The only ones who actually know anything at all are the higher-ranking priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus and a few sagacious sorts like random archaeotech-investigating Inquisitors and the like.

The average person in the Imperium knows absolutely nothing about them, which probably includes most Space Marines as well. It's a foe that was defeated many, many thousands of years ago and eradicated.

Poly Ranger wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
The 'Iron Men' which are assumed to be The Men of Iron, from the Guants Ghost series, are of human dimensions.
There was always the in-game theory that the MoI turned against humanity due to their sentience. But in GGs we see that they have been utterly corrupted by chaos. Back then humanity apparently knew not of chaos and the MoI had been fighting their wars long enough to have almost conquered the galaxy. So why suddenly turn? Could it be that chaos had managed to get an early version of the scrap code into their programing rather than becoming jealous and angry due to their sentience?

Remember that planet had been under the influence of Chaos for who knows how many thousands of years, while the Men of Iron STC was buried. Not sure but I think that GG book might even predate the scrapcode fluff, too. So it was just a case of Chaos influence "magic".

Yeh I wasn't meaning that STC had specifically been infected for 15k or so years, but just to show that they were as supsceptible to Chaos as humanity. Who's to say they never turned due to Chaos in the past?

Even weapons have a presence (albeit a tiny one) in the warp. I could easily imagine what essentially is a weapon that can think for itself would be perfectly susceptible to Chaos, and could fall to it.

Ok bad memory here so feel free to check facts out yourselves ladies.

Men of iron rebelled, they had sentience but no soul to protect them from chaos, some were possessed, others simply rebelled, the men of iron built the men of gold if memory serves, these were very similar to humans, who won the war was left vague, so it's possible the men of iron eventually evolved to the point that they became indistinguishable from humans.

I'm gonna have a dig through my white dwarfs and try to find the issue that outlined this.

Mellow wrote:
A set of MoI novels detailing how well they worked with the Humans at first and then their fall to all out war would be well received in my opinion.

Plus, it would provide some great insight into the Dark Age of Technology.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Considering that the Imperium, with all of its might, is only a tiny, insignificant shade of the power of Humanity during the Dark Age of Technology, I'd say the Men of Iron would wreck everything if they still existed.
No present threat can compare to the past. Not only Humanity, but Eldar and Orks too were vastly more powerful in the past. Chaos was not around yet, but it is barely able to make a dent in the Imperium, let alone stand up against the soulless Men of Iron.

Chaos has been around since before the Emperor was born, there is no way in hell it wasn't influencing events.

Also, the Eldar of that time had technology that was at least the equal of DAoT tech. There is no record of them going to war however, and there is not way that it wouldn't be mentioned if they did go to war, as the fallout from said war would be cataclysmic.

Mellow wrote:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butlerian_Jihad

It's just too close. It makes me think GW didn't come up with anything original.

On that page there's a legends of dune which is basically the mechanicus creating Titans. (They even have the same name?!)

Dune titans are actually not the same thing, though everything in Dune was lifted by GW. The titans were called titans after Greek mythology. They were a group of humans who gave up their bodies to live on as just their brains, in fluid-filled canisters that made the brain immortal. They removed their bodies because then they could plug themselves into all sorts of robotic forms, from walkers to spacecraft. Think a titan princeps as just a brain in fluid.

Then the AI rebelled and they turned traitor and followed them instead of the humans, as they figured they were backing the winning faction. Also, they are all completely and utterly sadistic towards the "weak-fleshed" humans.

.

They are basically Dark Mechanicus if anything.

The Titans from Dune had interchangeable bodies, like someone said. some of those bodies were "crab like walkers" with multiple legs, large claws, armed with a Canon, missile launcher and flame throwers.... Kinda like a defiler. Another form was shaped like a giant bird of prey/dragon....kinda like a helldrake.. Hmmmm

 Formosa wrote:
Ok bad memory here so feel free to check facts out yourselves ladies.

Men of iron rebelled, they had sentience but no soul to protect them from chaos, some were possessed, others simply rebelled, the men of iron built the men of gold if memory serves, these were very similar to humans, who won the war was left vague, so it's possible the men of iron eventually evolved to the point that they became indistinguishable from humans.

I'm gonna have a dig through my white dwarfs and try to find the issue that outlined this.

one would think it would be very difficult to completely erradicate an artificial intelligence. It just takes 1 CPU left to keep it alive right? What if that 1 CPU finds a way to get to a factory?

I suppose every single STC was destroyed, but that is rather unlikely.

As formidable as Humans were supposed to be back then, I would assume they did something like a computer virus. I'm sure it had to be some sort of superweapon, to completely eradicate them.

For a short time after the Necrons were released in 2nd edition and then the blurb about the Men of Iron in the 3rd edition rulebook, I hoped that when they got their first real codex they were going to be some sort of Men of Iron remnants, long-buried and back to exterminate the humans.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
As formidable as Humans were supposed to be back then, I would assume they did something like a computer virus. I'm sure it had to be some sort of superweapon, to completely eradicate them.

For a short time after the Necrons were released in 2nd edition and then the blurb about the Men of Iron in the 3rd edition rulebook, I hoped that when they got their first real codex they were going to be some sort of Men of Iron remnants, long-buried and back to exterminate the humans.

That would be so much better than the current lore, IMO.

 dusara217 wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
As formidable as Humans were supposed to be back then, I would assume they did something like a computer virus. I'm sure it had to be some sort of superweapon, to completely eradicate them.

For a short time after the Necrons were released in 2nd edition and then the blurb about the Men of Iron in the 3rd edition rulebook, I hoped that when they got their first real codex they were going to be some sort of Men of Iron remnants, long-buried and back to exterminate the humans.

That would be so much better than the current lore, IMO.

omg would it

 Exergy wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
As formidable as Humans were supposed to be back then, I would assume they did something like a computer virus. I'm sure it had to be some sort of superweapon, to completely eradicate them.

For a short time after the Necrons were released in 2nd edition and then the blurb about the Men of Iron in the 3rd edition rulebook, I hoped that when they got their first real codex they were going to be some sort of Men of Iron remnants, long-buried and back to exterminate the humans.

That would be so much better than the current lore, IMO.

omg would it

totes, it would be, like, so, totally awesome

Mellow wrote:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butlerian_Jihad

It's just too close. It makes me think GW didn't come up with anything original.

On that page there's a legends of dune which is basically the mechanicus creating Titans. (They even have the same name?!)

Damn you, evil time traveling GW, you think you're so clever, stealing ideas 15, 20 years before they were even written! But we're on to you!

 AegisGrimm wrote:
As formidable as Humans were supposed to be back then, I would assume they did something like a computer virus. I'm sure it had to be some sort of superweapon, to completely eradicate them.

For a short time after the Necrons were released in 2nd edition and then the blurb about the Men of Iron in the 3rd edition rulebook, I hoped that when they got their first real codex they were going to be some sort of Men of Iron remnants, long-buried and back to exterminate the humans.

So they would be Zombie Terminators again? I would love that, not a fan of the Egyptian Terminators in Space Canoes.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
As formidable as Humans were supposed to be back then, I would assume they did something like a computer virus. I'm sure it had to be some sort of superweapon, to completely eradicate them.

For a short time after the Necrons were released in 2nd edition and then the blurb about the Men of Iron in the 3rd edition rulebook, I hoped that when they got their first real codex they were going to be some sort of Men of Iron remnants, long-buried and back to exterminate the humans.

Its possible the Men of Iron were all interconnected into some network that could be physically destroyed or disrupted. Maybe like the Battle Droids in Episode 1 were all controlled from 1 star ship in orbit. Except none of the Men of Iron survived to rectify that weakness.

It was probably some big Achilles heel exploit that led to them being defeated. I doubt it was through force of arms as its said mankind was pushed to the brink of extinction with the war so they probably didn't fight them back to a last stand just through combat power.

 Exergy wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Ok bad memory here so feel free to check facts out yourselves ladies.

Men of iron rebelled, they had sentience but no soul to protect them from chaos, some were possessed, others simply rebelled, the men of iron built the men of gold if memory serves, these were very similar to humans, who won the war was left vague, so it's possible the men of iron eventually evolved to the point that they became indistinguishable from humans.

I'm gonna have a dig through my white dwarfs and try to find the issue that outlined this.

one would think it would be very difficult to completely erradicate an artificial intelligence. It just takes 1 CPU left to keep it alive right? What if that 1 CPU finds a way to get to a factory?

I suppose every single STC was destroyed, but that is rather unlikely.

Like I said it was never stated who won the war, the men of gold at that point were near human, so it's possible they could have won the war and are the humans we see now lol. The hh space wolf book actually gave me this idea when linked to the old fluff, as the a.I they encounter claims the imperial forces encountered "are not human", how grim dark would that be, humanity created sentient machines, who created organic sentient machines, humanity is wiped out by these machines, but the machines are human for all intents at this point, 10k years pass and no one remembers the schism and who won, the machines are part of what's left of the humans, interbreeding, and no one knows the difference.

 Formosa wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Ok bad memory here so feel free to check facts out yourselves ladies.

Men of iron rebelled, they had sentience but no soul to protect them from chaos, some were possessed, others simply rebelled, the men of iron built the men of gold if memory serves, these were very similar to humans, who won the war was left vague, so it's possible the men of iron eventually evolved to the point that they became indistinguishable from humans.

I'm gonna have a dig through my white dwarfs and try to find the issue that outlined this.

one would think it would be very difficult to completely erradicate an artificial intelligence. It just takes 1 CPU left to keep it alive right? What if that 1 CPU finds a way to get to a factory?

I suppose every single STC was destroyed, but that is rather unlikely.

Like I said it was never stated who won the war, the men of gold at that point were near human, so it's possible they could have won the war and are the humans we see now lol. The hh space wolf book actually gave me this idea when linked to the old fluff, as the a.I they encounter claims the imperial forces encountered "are not human", how grim dark would that be, humanity created sentient machines, who created organic sentient machines, humanity is wiped out by these machines, but the machines are human for all intents at this point, 10k years pass and no one remembers the schism and who won, the machines are part of what's left of the humans, interbreeding, and no one knows the difference.

Wow that would be grimdark, though i feel that would be giving GW to much credit lol

The most logical theory I've heard was that the Golden Men are Humans from Terra, and the Stone Men are Humans from Mars.

Remember that by using terms such as 'Golden', we're already entering poetic, oral history territory, so to say the Golden Men 'created' the Stone Men could be as simple as meaning the Martians were descended from the Terrans. Mars and Terra, even early on, developed different cultures, and could have been seen as different branches of Humanity by historians.

The 'Golden' Terrans were joyful, hedonistic explorers and artisans, while the 'Stone' Martians were dour, logical scientists and engineers, who then went on to design and manufacture the Iron Men.

I get the impression that the Golden Race have all but died out. They could be the perpetuals perhaps, it's a long shot I admit.

The early humans were obviously keen to invent and create which helped them spread out among the stars. The stone men helped them do this with their machines and then the iron men were created which caused the problems.

The problem is what did the Emperor do during this time. Did he step up and help the final "attack" that broke the men of iron? Did he hide because his psychic powers had no effect on them? Was he off planet somewhere on a pilgrimage for more power?

It would be interesting to find out as we currently know he only came out of hiding to unite Terra AFTER all this happened.

Mellow wrote:
I get the impression that the Golden Race have all but died out. They could be the perpetuals perhaps, it's a long shot I admit.

Well, if you take the poetic interpretation, they did die out. They died out when the Golden Age died, in the same way the Victorians stopped existing when the Victorian Age ended. British people still existed, but Victorians did not. Humans still existed, but the Golden Men, and many of their achievements and ways, no longer did.

Isolated from Terra by warp storms during the Age of Strife, the Stone Men continued their traditions and eventually evolved into what we now know as the current Mechinarium.

Even during the Golden Age of Mankind, Terra and Mars retained culturally and politically seperate (yet allied) empires. So it makes sense that they would be referred to as two different types of men in scattered records. This continues today, with Forge Worlds being politically and culturally distinct entities within the Imperium, having their own unique religion and forces.

 Grimmor wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Ok bad memory here so feel free to check facts out yourselves ladies.

Men of iron rebelled, they had sentience but no soul to protect them from chaos, some were possessed, others simply rebelled, the men of iron built the men of gold if memory serves, these were very similar to humans, who won the war was left vague, so it's possible the men of iron eventually evolved to the point that they became indistinguishable from humans.

I'm gonna have a dig through my white dwarfs and try to find the issue that outlined this.

one would think it would be very difficult to completely erradicate an artificial intelligence. It just takes 1 CPU left to keep it alive right? What if that 1 CPU finds a way to get to a factory?

I suppose every single STC was destroyed, but that is rather unlikely.

Like I said it was never stated who won the war, the men of gold at that point were near human, so it's possible they could have won the war and are the humans we see now lol. The hh space wolf book actually gave me this idea when linked to the old fluff, as the a.I they encounter claims the imperial forces encountered "are not human", how grim dark would that be, humanity created sentient machines, who created organic sentient machines, humanity is wiped out by these machines, but the machines are human for all intents at this point, 10k years pass and no one remembers the schism and who won, the machines are part of what's left of the humans, interbreeding, and no one knows the difference.

Wow that would be grimdark, though i feel that would be giving GW to much credit lol

As has been previously mentioned, this would be completely discounting the Emperor (and the Sensei, along with other Perpetuals).

 dusara217 wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Ok bad memory here so feel free to check facts out yourselves ladies.

Men of iron rebelled, they had sentience but no soul to protect them from chaos, some were possessed, others simply rebelled, the men of iron built the men of gold if memory serves, these were very similar to humans, who won the war was left vague, so it's possible the men of iron eventually evolved to the point that they became indistinguishable from humans.

I'm gonna have a dig through my white dwarfs and try to find the issue that outlined this.

one would think it would be very difficult to completely erradicate an artificial intelligence. It just takes 1 CPU left to keep it alive right? What if that 1 CPU finds a way to get to a factory?

I suppose every single STC was destroyed, but that is rather unlikely.

Like I said it was never stated who won the war, the men of gold at that point were near human, so it's possible they could have won the war and are the humans we see now lol. The hh space wolf book actually gave me this idea when linked to the old fluff, as the a.I they encounter claims the imperial forces encountered "are not human", how grim dark would that be, humanity created sentient machines, who created organic sentient machines, humanity is wiped out by these machines, but the machines are human for all intents at this point, 10k years pass and no one remembers the schism and who won, the machines are part of what's left of the humans, interbreeding, and no one knows the difference.

Wow that would be grimdark, though i feel that would be giving GW to much credit lol

As has been previously mentioned, this would be completely discounting the Emperor (and the Sensei, along with other Perpetuals).

It doesn't discount either, humanity was isolated into little pockets by this point, so wiping out most of humanity but replacing them with what are effectively still humans, just techno organic, would make no difference to either.

Emp locked on terra, iron men wiped out in terran system, but not elsewhere, they succefully integrate into societies or take over, chalk on a few k in years and no one can tell the difference between humans and the evolved machines, just assuming they are just another group of isolated humans.

I like that idea. Feels very traditional sci fi.

I was always under the impression that the Iron men were not significantly more powerful than humans. They were just easy manufactured and programed to do the dirty work. Sort of like a bunch of more agile C3PO droids.

 PhillyT wrote:
I was always under the impression that the Iron men were not significantly more powerful than humans. They were just easy manufactured and programed to do the dirty work. Sort of like a bunch of more agile C3PO droids.

Yeah that's the impression I get too, but they theoretically modified themselves and became a lot more powerful as time went on, I always get mixed up with the types though, it was gold, stone, iron or was it stone, iron gold, I'm sure I remember 3 types?

I think:

The Golden Race = early humans

The Stone Men = early mechanicum

The Iron Men = droid army created to fight humanities wars

Mellow wrote:
I think:

The Golden Race = early humans

The Stone Men = early mechanicum

The Iron Men = droid army created to fight humanities wars

How does that explain that humanity fought the gold, stone and iron men, if the gold and stone men are just humans anyway? Wouldnt you just call it a civil war?

Although likely the iron men were robotic of some sort.
I'm a bit wary of calling them a sentient AI. The stone men weren't made of stone, the golden men weren't made out of gold. It makes little sense for the iron men to be made out of iron.
I don't get how a AI can use AI as weapons, seems a bit like using your children as weapons if you were a AI. They wouldn't be called a race by the stone men either.
Also possible they were a augmented clone (no souls) servitor race created as workers, with them blaming the fact they started thinking for themselves on the fact that they didn't think the human brain would overcome whatever programming/augments they put into place. Might also explain where the pariah gene came from.

The issue here is 40k is mashing up some Greek Mythology into its own continuity.

In Greek Mythology, the Men of Gold, Men of Silver, Men of Bronze, and Men of Iron were all human. But different types at different points in time. Modern humans are Men of Iron.

40k is really taking the names and turning them all on its head. The explanation would likely be that regular humans gave grandiose names from ancient mythology to their new creations. Men of Iron would be a suitable name for their robot servants.

Another explanation is that the Gold and Stone men were normal humans opposed to another faction of humanity. This other faction won, and as the victors took the opportunity to sort of rewrite history to make their enemies seem less than human.

More than likely Grey, just another civil war. Except people didnt get to eat their cake this time.
But theres a lot here that take it awfully literally.
As you can see Iron men must mean robots....because iron,.. metal. No imagination, I guess.
But the soulless thing is a 40k clone thing, so could be the emps sneaky way of slipping the pariah gene into the race

Why would the Emperor, who intended to guide humanity through its apotheosis into a fully-psychic race and the masters of the galaxy, create non-psykers?