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Well my first proposal is to get rid of them entirely. Or at most have them be occasional things like a SAG rolling 6s on 2D6 which creates a vortex. Realistically D weapons Feth up any sense of balance the game might have had.

my second proposal is a nerf, if GW is going to force this down our throats how about we nerf the D weapon rules.
1: Nothing
2-5: D3 HP lost, this is actually balanced and im ok with. But that is it, no further dmg, no roll on the Penetration table nothing.
6: D3+3 HP lost, Why the feth should it be D6+6? how many Super heavies in the game even have that many HP?

And my 3rd -112th Proposal are get rid of D weapons.

EDIT: I Forgot to mention, Saves of all kinds can be taken against Destroyer weapons. Also it will be 1 Save per wound/HP inflicted. So if you roll a 6 and get D3+3 HP/Wounds then the opposing player gets D3+3 Saves of any kind allowed. Also FNP can be taken if the model is eternal warrior. or T6+

My 1st - 100th proposal is a removal from standard 40k games and put them back in a seperate Apoc mode.

That said, if we're going to have them, might as well do away with this random nonsense and just assign them a set number of HP/W dealt. The average of your proposed chart is 2. I'd settle for 3, but prefer 2 if they're going to be seen in games against most vehicles that have HP3.

I strongly feel that if we're going to have a class of weapon called mother fething DESTROYER, the mechanic should simply be "Roll to hit -> Apply set damage" with no further checks or rolls.

I prefer the chart myself, as it allows a 1/6 chance for survival.

I approve the change listed above, it is the same houserule I've used since the apocalypse book came out in 6th edition.

Also, I love big robots and monsters on the table! It allows me to get a 2000 point game done and over with in about 2-3 hours as opposed to 4-5. I get one day a month for serious wargaming, so this equates to me getting 1-2 extra games in(points depending.

My other houserules negate most of the problems that arise from their inclusion. (Like poison and sniper taking no penalties, and monstrous creatures needing 25% cover to get a save, or super heavy vehicles taking damage from the chart but ignoring crew shaken/stunned and immobilized give a speed penalty)

It makes the fight interesting without unduly affecting armies that would normally have trouble.

Edit: with the 2-5 at my house for strD you still roll on the chart for super heavy vehicles.

StrD doesn't needed nerfed. IMHO it may actually need buffed.

What needs done with StrD is it needs restricted. If you make it really potent but only allow suitably expensive platforms to have it then it wouldn't be a problem.

How ever if you nerf StrD then units that whole point is to bring StrD and bring one really potent gun becomes useless/overcosted.

For example, the shadowsword is currently fairly bad and not worth its 450 some points it pays for its one StrD gun. Nerfing Str D as you suggest would make it go from bad to absolutely pointless as it couldn't even get a lucky 6 any more.

It can still get a lucky 6, that 6 just won't guarantee kill most other superheavies in the game any more.

The reason for the shadosword's price point is the obscene range on it's cannon. I used it as the baseline for every other strD weapon in the game when I was correlating point totals for the vehicle design rules and it lines up with every other strD gun out there.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
It can still get a lucky 6, that 6 just won't guarantee kill most other superheavies in the game any more.

The reason for the shadosword's price point is the obscene range on it's cannon. I used it as the baseline for every other strD weapon in the game when I was correlating point totals for the vehicle design rules and it lines up with every other strD gun out there.

The whole point of the shadowsword is to one shot enemy super heavies. It's a dedicated anti titan tank. If it takes more than one turn the titan will destroy it. It loses out on a lot of other good stuff banelade variations get. No troop bay, you're silly if you don't swap out the lascanons. It's already the one I would bring last compared to any other variant.

The problem with strD is that when everything gets access to it, it isn't special. We'd need to introduce Mega Destroyer weapons to bring things that used to rely on the rare strD back to usefulness. Then it would cycle as GW goes "bigger is better, right?" until we end up with some Ultra-Mega-Super-Alpha-Hyper-Prefix-Giga-Smackdown-Destroyer weapon that on the roll of a 1 deals 12 wounds/hull points as everything spirals out of control, GW frantically trying to get more money to make up for loses on the last crazy mega robot they released and nobody bought.

But, it could never one shot a titan due to voidshields. That being said, if you look at the strD weapons in my V.D.R. you'll see what games workshop says they should priced at, and what they would be priced at if they were using the shadosword's cannon as a baseline.

As an example, the double barrel turbolaser destructor is 100 points off. That means a 700+ point warhound with two should actually be about 940 points. There should be two shadosword's for every warhound on the field with that loadout.

I get where you're coming from. There is too much cheap strD kicking about. Even the strD-1 for the wraithguard is just wrong. Yes they rip little wholes in the fabric of reality, but I have a giant missile that goes feth reality and all his friends. It does at most 1 wound to a wraithknight. There aren't many things I would give strD too. The deathstrike I would strongly consider, large titan based weapons yes, orbital laser cannon blasts raining down from on high, nid biotitans melee attacks. Not flamer and assault rifle things, even if it is toned down and apparently fluffy.

There is a death strike missile upgrade somewhere that makes it a large blast vortex. The death strike missile isn't to kill wraithknights, it's to wipe out the rest of the eldar army because ignores cover ap3 or better is gonna destroy pretty much everything they have, much less when it's a 10" blast!

One of the problem with D weapons, first of all with Eldar, is that they gave them to units without raising theirs cost appropriately.

put an extra +40 point for every Dweapons a player wants to field and even an Eldar army will be balanced.

They were considering the distort ability to be balanced against strD, is all I can figure. If they hadn't flubbed what a 6 did on a pen and made it cause an explodes result instead, I don't think anyone would have had such a hard time accepting the switch. Instead it guaranteed a penetrating hit, because of all that juicy av17+ out in the world...

A SAG should never... Ever... Cause d strength.. 10 at best and that's pushing it. Orks are OP and need to be nerfed hard. And yes I use to play them not even 3 weeks ago. So I know how they are. Had over 13,000 points.

I like the D3+3 part however as far as saves go I think this:
Uses AP just as all guns do at all levels. Removes all FNP and Reanimation protocols and the like regardless. Its AP has a -2 modifer against invulns on the roll of a 6.
Example
Str D AP:2 ignores all ordinary saves always and on a 6 invuln saves of 4+ or higher (ignores 4++, 5++, 6++)

With this more Str D weapons would need worse AP though.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
A SAG should never... Ever... Cause d strength.. 10 at best and that's pushing it. Orks are OP and need to be nerfed hard. And yes I use to play them not even 3 weeks ago. So I know how they are. Had over 13,000 points.

trolling or just no idea what your talking about?

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:
I like the D3+3 part however as far as saves go I think this:
Uses AP just as all guns do at all levels. Removes all FNP and Reanimation protocols and the like regardless. Its AP has a -2 modifer against invulns on the roll of a 6.
Example
Str D AP:2 ignores all ordinary saves always and on a 6 invuln saves of 4+ or higher (ignores 4++, 5++, 6++)

With this more Str D weapons would need worse AP though.

Has to ignore saves. Strength D is there to make people think twice about psychic deathstars. It doesn't matter that you have 2+ armor, cover, one invuls because someone can roll a "6" and delete them anyway. Same holds true for superheavies in that regard. If strength D didn't ignore cover and invulns on a 6, armies like orks, imperial guard, dark eldar, and chaos marines wouldn't have a chance because there wouldn't be anything to stop the draigostars, seercouncils, and the like from simply crushing things with no fear of reprisal.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
A SAG should never... Ever... Cause d strength.. 10 at best and that's pushing it. Orks are OP and need to be nerfed hard. And yes I use to play them not even 3 weeks ago. So I know how they are. Had over 13,000 points.

trolling or just no idea what your talking about?

Neither... I'm telling you. It shouldn't cause strength d. A huge chainsword on an imperial knight or stompa does. A ctan does. See.. big things.. not a little gun. S10 sure. Not d

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
A SAG should never... Ever... Cause d strength.. 10 at best and that's pushing it. Orks are OP and need to be nerfed hard. And yes I use to play them not even 3 weeks ago. So I know how they are. Had over 13,000 points.

trolling or just no idea what your talking about?

Neither... I'm telling you. It shouldn't cause strength d. A huge chainsword on an imperial knight or stompa does. A ctan does. See.. big things.. not a little gun. S10 sure. Not d

"Orks are OP" you sir are either trolling or have one of the best Ork players in your area. Also with the fact that Eldar can take D weapons for nothing I think its ok if Orks get a D strength weapon that has a 1/36 chance of working.

Eldar getting D-weapons was a mistake. They shouldn't exist in standard games.

I'd have D as it previously was and restrict them to Apoc battles only.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
A SAG should never... Ever... Cause d strength.. 10 at best and that's pushing it. Orks are OP and need to be nerfed hard. And yes I use to play them not even 3 weeks ago. So I know how they are. Had over 13,000 points.

trolling or just no idea what your talking about?

Neither... I'm telling you. It shouldn't cause strength d. A huge chainsword on an imperial knight or stompa does. A ctan does. See.. big things.. not a little gun. S10 sure. Not d

"Orks are OP" you sir are either trolling or have one of the best Ork players in your area. Also with the fact that Eldar can take D weapons for nothing I think its ok if Orks get a D strength weapon that has a 1/36 chance of working.

Do you not play zhadsnark bike lists? Green tides? Void shields? Plenty of op ork lists. Name an op dark eldar list without eldar? Grey Knights list without allies? Millitarum tempestus list without allies? Space wolves? Blood angels? Harlequins? Astra millitarum? And just because double op eldar get it doesn't mean everyone should have it. Space marines without allies have no access and are still top tier. Please stop acting as though orks need a strength d, no matter the probability.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
A SAG should never... Ever... Cause d strength.. 10 at best and that's pushing it. Orks are OP and need to be nerfed hard. And yes I use to play them not even 3 weeks ago. So I know how they are. Had over 13,000 points.

trolling or just no idea what your talking about?

Neither... I'm telling you. It shouldn't cause strength d. A huge chainsword on an imperial knight or stompa does. A ctan does. See.. big things.. not a little gun. S10 sure. Not d

"Orks are OP" you sir are either trolling or have one of the best Ork players in your area. Also with the fact that Eldar can take D weapons for nothing I think its ok if Orks get a D strength weapon that has a 1/36 chance of working.

Do you not play zhadsnark bike lists? Green tides? Void shields? Plenty of op ork lists. Name an op dark eldar list without eldar? Grey Knights list without allies? Millitarum tempestus list without allies? Space wolves? Blood angels? Harlequins? Astra millitarum? And just because double op eldar get it doesn't mean everyone should have it. Space marines without allies have no access and are still top tier. Please stop acting as though orks need a strength d, no matter the probability.

So because Orks have a Forge World List thats good? or a Supplement List with a Forgeworld unit in it they are OP? Sorry dude those are literally the only 2 good lists the orks have and they rely on Forgeworld. (Voidshields)

Orks have had the SAG for 2 codex's now for more then 6years (im to lazy to look up how long the last codex ran) and it has always been that if you are insanely lucky and roll 12 with 2D6 it created a Vortex. Or on the opposite spectrum you are just as likely (Double 1s) on Killing yourself outright or transporting yourself into CC with whatever you were shooting at.

Regardless I would be fine with Nerfing the SAG if it meant that every other army lost D weapons except Super heavies having a CCW that was D strength.

Void shield isn't forge world it was limited run gw. So wrong there. And zhadsnark is the ONLY unit in the entire biker list that is fw. List can be duplicated similarly with good results with a warboss. The fact there is two is better than none which more armies have. Orks have two. Get over it. They exist. You can't ignore them cause "I don't like those cause reasons"

You're arguments hence forth are ignored unless you acknowledge armies in their entirety

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Void shield isn't forge world it was limited run gw. So wrong there. And zhadsnark is the ONLY unit in the entire biker list that is fw. List can be duplicated similarly with good results with a warboss. The fact there is two is better than none which more armies have. Orks have two. Get over it. They exist. You can't ignore them cause "I don't like those cause reasons"

You're arguments hence forth are ignored unless you acknowledge armies in their entirety

"Acknowledge armies in their entirety"

So then you have to acknowledge that the ork army besides those 2 lists is garbage. Killa kanz, Deff dreads, Morkanaut, Gorkanaut, Nobz, Nob Bikers, Storm Boyz, Flash Gitz, Burna Boyz, Dakka Jet, Burna Bomber, Blitz Bomber, Ghazghkull and Battlewagon. So please acknowledge that.

Never said they were good. I did however list multiple armies that have it 10x harder than your orks. Which is why I got rid of them. I refuse to play an army that has an easy win button. Orks have two. I now play dark eldar.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Never said they were good. I did however list multiple armies that have it 10x harder than your orks. Which is why I got rid of them. I refuse to play an army that has an easy win button. Orks have two. I now play dark eldar.

Then don't play the 2 lists that are good, one of which is insanely boring to play. Regardless, what is your opinion of my proposition in regards to D weapons.

One, my 1500 point harlequin army hasn't been defeated yet, and two: double sixes last edition of the orks the double six result removed from play with no saves allowed. That is WAY stronger than strD.

Strength D is not a serious issue whatsoever, let's not pretend it is. You throw out the voidshields generator as an example of what orks can bring in regards to op abilities, EVERY ARMY HAS ACCESS TO THEM! If every army in the game has access to the perfect counter, then how can the thing countered be too powerful?

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:
I like the D3+3 part however as far as saves go I think this:
Uses AP just as all guns do at all levels. Removes all FNP and Reanimation protocols and the like regardless. Its AP has a -2 modifer against invulns on the roll of a 6.
Example
Str D AP:2 ignores all ordinary saves always and on a 6 invuln saves of 4+ or higher (ignores 4++, 5++, 6++)

With this more Str D weapons would need worse AP though.

Has to ignore saves. Strength D is there to make people think twice about psychic deathstars. It doesn't matter that you have 2+ armor, cover, one invuls because someone can roll a "6" and delete them anyway. Same holds true for superheavies in that regard. If strength D didn't ignore cover and invulns on a 6, armies like orks, imperial guard, dark eldar, and chaos marines wouldn't have a chance because there wouldn't be anything to stop the draigostars, seercouncils, and the like from simply crushing things with no fear of reprisal.

I don't know why people think this str d has had little to no effect on psychic death stars. You don't rely on the magical 6 for ignoring psychic invul saves. Str d also does nothing for invis units and mostly does nothing for cover. No one takes str d to target a psychic unit because it's not very good at it. This is why demons are still very strong army. Str d destroys vehicles and multi wound models. You take str d to kill the biggest strongest most expensive unit in your opponents army not psychic units.

And when that unit fails an attempt to become invisible, or the strenght D goes first? Exactly. The strD gets fired at the biggest most expensive unit on the table. Strength D has had little to no effect on psychic deathstars because most tournaments won't allow the best platforms for it, or they nerf it like the itc(?) Did where it doesn't ever do enough damage to kill the tank character that was put out front to absorb shots.

That's why they haven't bumped deathstars out yet.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
One, my 1500 point harlequin army hasn't been defeated yet, and two: double sixes last edition of the orks the double six result removed from play with no saves allowed. That is WAY stronger than strD.

Strength D is not a serious issue whatsoever, let's not pretend it is. You throw out the voidshields generator as an example of what orks can bring in regards to op abilities, EVERY ARMY HAS ACCESS TO THEM! If every army in the game has access to the perfect counter, then how can the thing countered be too powerful?

No other army has the ability to have a single model on one end of the table provide that save to a bunch of models on the opposite end of the table. That's why it's worth mentioning for orks.

That's the thing, the voidshields aren't ork exclusive.

You could do the same thing with chaos cultists, blob guard, tyranid hordes, and even necron warriors. The voidshields generator is good for any army with a need to get giant piles of foot slogging units to the enemy in one piece.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
That's the thing, the voidshields aren't ork exclusive.

You could do the same thing with chaos cultists, blob guard, tyranid hordes, and even necron warriors. The voidshields generator is good for any army with a need to get giant piles of foot slogging units to the enemy in one piece.

What other army can give this save to 301+ models at the exact same time spread out throughout the entire board? I'll wait..