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Consider the setting an Imperial Civilized world (like Elysia) that has had very scarce contact with the Imperium of Man's military forces. Small PDF and the like - lacking faith. How do you guys think the civilians would react to a full regiment (or any force that'd be considered large) making landfall on their planet? I had this idea when reading through the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer and seeing the guidelines on seizing resources from the local populace.

For Storm Troopers/Scions - same sort of setting - but in much smaller in numbers (I also imagine that this sort of deployment for Scions would be rare unless an Inquisitor was involved and they were part of his retinue, but let's exclude that aspect.). Two squads and a command branch with a Tempestor Prime. How would they react?

I'd imagine fear and respect for both - but more of the former for the Scions.

You guy's thoughts?

IG most often fight in civil wars between fellow populations and chaos/rebel traitors so I'd imagine they would be welcomed by people still loyal to Terra. But they can also be seen as the real hammer of the emperor, that is to say when they are tasked to restablish imperial order, they can be quickly seen as a violent foreign occupation force. I guess they never refuse brutal methods that can turn initial support in sheer hatred among civilians, but this is pure speculation.

Regarding Scions, people never see them and when they do, that's because Inquisition want them dead.

 RazgrizOne wrote:
IG most often fight in civil wars between fellow populations and chaos/rebel traitors so I'd imagine they would be welcomed by people still loyal to Terra. But they can also be seen as the real hammer of the emperor, that is to say when they are tasked to restablish imperial order, they can be quickly seen as a violent foreign occupation force. I guess they never refuse brutal methods that can turn initial support in sheer hatred among civilians, but this is pure speculation.

Regarding Scions, people never see them and when they do, that's because Inquisition want them dead.

Very true on the Scions there. Only not all of them are directly commanded by the Inquisition, the general consensus would likely be; 'Scions equal huge issue on the planet.'

How would the Governor's PDF react? Envious? Jealous? (Jealousy amongst the common guardsmen sounds unlikely, considering. Still entirely valid though, I feel.)

And I feel like most common people would see them as that occupation force, since they have guidelines concerning taking their 'due' from the populace. Seems like that'd result in a lot of resentment to me.

Planetary governors must be ressentful to see IG since its deployment usually mean they failed to do their job. Or it can also be a salvation for them if they are engulfed in a war of rebellion. Either ways, relations with military command could be very well tense because IG officers or whoever is in charge of the army group is basically supplanting PG's authority for the duration of the operation. PG should stay quiet in this kind of crisis and show low profile if they don't want to loose their charge/life because of a war their governance contributed to cause.

I think it'd depend on the regiment personally. I think loyal citizens would react differently if parade ground Mordians made planetfall instead of that regiment that collects the heads of their enemies and generally look like unwashed barbarians.

Any regiment arriving would be a cause for concern, the Munitorium doesn't deploy regiments to worlds simply for them to enjoy some R&R.

 RazgrizOne wrote:
Either ways, relations with military command could be very well tense because IG officers or whoever is in charge of the army group is basically supplanting PG's authority for the duration of the operation.

Depends on who is writing the fluff: Back in 1st edition, Planetary Governors were (lesser) Lords of Terra and as such had supreme authority over everything within their domain. Now that was a long time ago.. but it's actually still canon that during the 2nd Armageddon War a force from a Titan Legion carried out a pointless suicide mission when ordered to by the Planetary Governor, because they had no choice due to his authority.

Ok, I did not know that. It's just because I tend to see them as depositaries of the central authoritily and thus people who should serve the representatives of the said authority.

 RazgrizOne wrote:
Ok, I did not know that. It's just because I tend to see them as depositaries of the central authoritily and thus people who should serve the representatives of the said authority.

Generally that is the case where there is no higher authority present than a Regimental commander. But if a sub-sector General is present (or deferred command to subordinates operating in distant warzones) then the Planetary Governor can certainly be told to bugger off.

The 2nd War for Armageddon was primarily, up until the breaching of Hades Hive and arrival of reinforcements, restricted to planetside forces under the command of Governor Strabb. The 3rd War took place in an extensive campaign already engulfing several systems.

Well Elysia wouldn't be a good example for this given it's a pretty militarised planet producing a well recognised airborne regiment

GAdvance wrote:
Well Elysia wouldn't be a good example for this given it's a pretty militarised planet producing a well recognised airborne regiment

Didn't mean it like that. Elysia is the class of world (civilised) that was intended to be put into the situation described. It's one of the more recognized of that class, so I used it for an example. I've also been thinkin' of how a Hive City/Planet would react, though. As far as classes for worlds go.

Depends on the Régiment, they civilians in Dead Men Walking were absolutely scared of the Krieg Grenadiers, and that was after they were attacked by Flayed Ones

Hm. We'll line up five regiments, then, and evaluate each situation. First, Cadian. Second, DKoK. Third, Feral. Fourth, Elysians. Fifth, Catachan. Feel free to use your own, these are the five that popped into my head immediately. Using these five as a baseline, I suppose. Personally, I think that most worlds wouldn't mind Elysians or Cadians. The other three are entirely different, to some degree.

I reckon the highly religious populace would struggle to cope with having the notoriously self agrandising Catachans, they'd be like really bad boy rockstars though since they ARE catchans

Noones gonna feel good around DKOK

Feral regiments are to wide in variety to assess, some are noble knights others are cannibals etc

Cadians are pretty much the epitomy of what a 'good' imperial citizen can be in 40k and would be heroes

 EpicPursuit wrote:

GAdvance wrote:
Well Elysia wouldn't be a good example for this given it's a pretty militarised planet producing a well recognised airborne regiment

Didn't mean it like that. Elysia is the class of world (civilised) that was intended to be put into the situation described. It's one of the more recognized of that class, so I used it for an example. I've also been thinkin' of how a Hive City/Planet would react, though. As far as classes for worlds go.

Considering that worlds of any decent population are expected to raise and tithe Guard Regiments, I don't imagine that they would be particularly put-out to see them around. Really depends on the Regiment and the world in question.

 Psienesis wrote:

Considering that worlds of any decent population are expected to raise and tithe Guard Regiments, I don't imagine that they would be particularly put-out to see them around. Really depends on the Regiment and the world in question.

I imagine it's a completely different matter with regiments not of your world. It would be like the United States populace finding themselves dealing with a huge international UN peacekeeping mission, one to which their own military and government is subservient to. Even stranger as a 40k citizen would have even less knowledge of distant worlds than a US citizen would of distant countries.

A Hive World, for example, sees people from all over the galaxy arriving. Rogue Traders and their retinues, Chartist Captains and their thousands of pilgrim-passengers, the Adeptus Mechanicus and their deliveries of raw materials and pick-ups of finished goods, the Imperial Tithe collectors, visiting dignitaries and their retinues. While *most* people in the Imperium will not number amongst those that travel to other worlds, for places like Hive Worlds, seeing off-worlders, or at the least knowing that they regularly come and go, is not particularly far-fetched.

I wonder how people would react to AdMech forces though. Those guys are seriously creepy.

I think a regiment landing on a planet in times of peace, say RnR, would be welcomed for the money they will bring into the local economy. Prostitutes, alcohol, gambling, and trinkets would be the name of the game here and since the guard rarely get the opportunity to spend it, the credits will flow like water.

In wartime they are probably welcomed by friendly populations provided the population is not in the middle of a full blown firefight. The smart ones will still sell stuff to the guardsmen and take advantage of the situation.

Its all very situational. Obviously a population about to rebel would be a little more upset if the guard shows up to keep them in line.

To be frank with you I am sure that if a normally citizen saw a stormtrooper they would probably know that they are dead.

For some reason, I feel like the less educated of certain worlds wouldn't even know what a Scion is - and the difference between them and standard soldiers. And whether or not they're dead with a Storm Trooper on planet varies a whole lot. They could be considered saviors - protecting the remaining populace from Xenos attacks. In other situations, they may be ordered to butcher the population on charges of heresy. Either way, I don't think anyone would walk up to them in any context - and they'd probably also not be there long. As per their rapid response doctrines. That's my two cents on Scions.

Oh, another regiment to add to the pool for uniqueness; Tallarn Desert Raiders.

 EpicPursuit wrote:
For some reason, I feel like the less educated of certain worlds wouldn't even know what a Scion is - and the difference between them and standard soldiers. And whether or not they're dead with a Storm Trooper on planet varies a whole lot. They could be considered saviors - protecting the remaining populace from Xenos attacks. In other situations, they may be ordered to butcher the population on charges of heresy. Either way, I don't think anyone would walk up to them in any context - and they'd probably also not be there long. As per their rapid response doctrines. That's my two cents on Scions.

Oh, another regiment to add to the pool for uniqueness; Tallarn Desert Raiders.

They don't send stormtroopers to human worlds for just a simple ork or chaos attack. There are tempustus scions and stormtrooper equivalent in these regiments Cadian Shock Troops
Armageddon Steel Legion, Terrax Guard, Harakoni Warhawks, Death Korps of Krieg

 DeLong wrote:

 EpicPursuit wrote:
For some reason, I feel like the less educated of certain worlds wouldn't even know what a Scion is - and the difference between them and standard soldiers. And whether or not they're dead with a Storm Trooper on planet varies a whole lot. They could be considered saviors - protecting the remaining populace from Xenos attacks. In other situations, they may be ordered to butcher the population on charges of heresy. Either way, I don't think anyone would walk up to them in any context - and they'd probably also not be there long. As per their rapid response doctrines. That's my two cents on Scions.

Oh, another regiment to add to the pool for uniqueness; Tallarn Desert Raiders.

They don't send stormtroopers to human worlds for just a simple ork or chaos attack.

That depends on the scale. And what you define as simple. Armageddon and the 13th Black Crusade both had Militarum Tempestus Scions involved extensively, but those are also major conflicts. And, reading through the MT codex, they seem to have plenty of hands in engagements on common human worlds against Chaos, Orks, and the like. To add to that, multiple regiments have Storm Trooper equivalents, actual storm troopers, or the like attached to them. Elysians do. Harakoni do to a huge extent. Cadians have Kasrkin. Et cetera, et cetera. I mean, a squad of Scions were deployed to retrieve a planetary governor - which would have been on a common human world.

You send in Stormtroopers when you need something more precise than an ordinary Imperial Guard regiment but the Space Marines can't be bothered.

A Chaos cult holed up in a fortress on an important agri-world, removing a planetary governor or Imperial Guard colonel, etc.

As to the reaction of the populace, the Ciaphas Cain novels have quite a few instances of civilian populations having to play host to Imperial Guard regiments. It's been a while since I read those, but I remember that the populace wasn't too bothered (until whatever it was the Guard were sent to deal with actually turned up, of course), although the civilian leadership had a habit of trying to interfere.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
You send in Stormtroopers when you need something more precise than an ordinary Imperial Guard regiment but the Space Marines can't be bothered.

A Chaos cult holed up in a fortress on an important agri-world, removing a planetary governor or Imperial Guard colonel, etc.

As to the reaction of the populace, the Ciaphas Cain novels have quite a few instances of civilian populations having to play host to Imperial Guard regiments. It's been a while since I read those, but I remember that the populace wasn't too bothered (until whatever it was the Guard were sent to deal with actually turned up, of course), although the civilian leadership had a habit of trying to interfere.

I should go back and reread those. Yeah, Scions are like scalpels to the Imperial Guard, exactly.

With so many regiments and uniform variations out there, it is doubtful the populace would even know a scion from a joe infantryman. when they are in towns, unless its on a mission, they wont be in full battlearmor or weapons. Likely just a duty uniform.

Like I said, your typical businesses that attend to soldiers would be no different then as they are now. Otherwise it just depends on their reason for being there.

 EpicPursuit wrote:
For some reason, I feel like the less educated of certain worlds wouldn't even know what a Scion is - and the difference between them and standard soldiers. And whether or not they're dead with a Storm Trooper on planet varies a whole lot. They could be considered saviors - protecting the remaining populace from Xenos attacks. In other situations, they may be ordered to butcher the population on charges of heresy. Either way, I don't think anyone would walk up to them in any context - and they'd probably also not be there long. As per their rapid response doctrines. That's my two cents on Scions.

I can't stand the new Scion fluff. They used to be good ol stormtroopers. Originally simply special forces with better armour. By 5th rich orphans brainwashed, now extremely more radicalised.

I just pretend mine are Grenadiers, which should be common enough. I always wish they had made Roskan models, their Grenadiers look amazing!!!

Realistically I don't think you could have brainwashed fanatic special forces. They have to be able to think on their own, take initiative and go outside the box at a moments notice. Mindless devotion would not be successful no matter how well trained, so Baldeagle I completely agree and disregard the current fluff. Requires too much suspension of belief. For mindless automatons look to Skitari.

Col. Dash wrote:
Realistically I don't think you could have brainwashed fanatic special forces. They have to be able to think on their own, take initiative and go outside the box at a moments notice. Mindless devotion would not be successful no matter how well trained, so Baldeagle I completely agree and disregard the current fluff. Requires too much suspension of belief. For mindless automatons look to Skitari.

Um... what?

You... think that the US Special Forces are not completely, doggedly loyal to the U.S. of A.? That they do not consider it their sacred duty to defend the Constitution from all enemies, both foreign and domestic? That they do not, in fact, bleed red-white-and-blue? And that they do not, in the name of Freedom, engage in special operations tasks such as asset denial, pacification efforts, removal of enemy personnel and similar tasks (just like Stormtroopers).

Just because one is brainwashed does not mean one is not capable of independent thought (within acceptable mission parameters), or incapable of taking initiative or thinking outside the box. What brainwashing attempts to ensure is that, no matter what you're doing, you're completely convinced of the justification of your (and your side's) cause, and that the enemy is, because they are not with your cause, obviously an inferior specimen and thus worthy of little else but extermination.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 EpicPursuit wrote:
For some reason, I feel like the less educated of certain worlds wouldn't even know what a Scion is - and the difference between them and standard soldiers. And whether or not they're dead with a Storm Trooper on planet varies a whole lot. They could be considered saviors - protecting the remaining populace from Xenos attacks. In other situations, they may be ordered to butcher the population on charges of heresy. Either way, I don't think anyone would walk up to them in any context - and they'd probably also not be there long. As per their rapid response doctrines. That's my two cents on Scions.

I can't stand the new Scion fluff. They used to be good ol stormtroopers. Originally simply special forces with better armour. By 5th rich orphans brainwashed, now extremely more radicalised.

I just pretend mine are Grenadiers, which should be common enough. I always wish they had made Roskan models, their Grenadiers look amazing!!!

Well. They're not all rich orphans. They're generally orphans of Imperial Heroes and, as you mentioned, the noble elite. But, that doesn't mean the rank-and-file can't be directed to the Ordo Tempestus. Of course, that's only by a very special order (and equally as rare). Honestly, they're no more brainwashed than the rest of the Imperium - they just follow orders without any hesitation. Though, I'm not going to discount potential mind altering. Feel free to correct me!

And I'd like to add that there's an actual story of a Tempestor acting out of normal parameters to meet a personal goal. So they're not robotic-human special forces. They just seem like that because they don't seem to show any desire for self-preservation when ordered to do something.

 EpicPursuit wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 EpicPursuit wrote:
For some reason, I feel like the less educated of certain worlds wouldn't even know what a Scion is - and the difference between them and standard soldiers. And whether or not they're dead with a Storm Trooper on planet varies a whole lot. They could be considered saviors - protecting the remaining populace from Xenos attacks. In other situations, they may be ordered to butcher the population on charges of heresy. Either way, I don't think anyone would walk up to them in any context - and they'd probably also not be there long. As per their rapid response doctrines. That's my two cents on Scions.

I can't stand the new Scion fluff. They used to be good ol stormtroopers. Originally simply special forces with better armour. By 5th rich orphans brainwashed, now extremely more radicalised.

I just pretend mine are Grenadiers, which should be common enough. I always wish they had made Roskan models, their Grenadiers look amazing!!!

Well. They're not all rich orphans. They're generally orphans of Imperial Heroes and, as you mentioned, the noble elite. But, that doesn't mean the rank-and-file can't be directed to the Ordo Tempestus. Of course, that's only by a very special order (and equally as rare). Honestly, they're no more brainwashed than the rest of the Imperium - they just follow orders without any hesitation. Though, I'm not going to discount potential mind altering. Feel free to correct me!

And I'd like to add that there's an actual story of a Tempestor acting out of normal parameters to meet a personal goal. So they're not robotic-human special forces. They just seem like that because they don't seem to show any desire for self-preservation when ordered to do something.

Seeing how varied people are within the imperium, despite a lack of freedom of religion post heresy, the actual brainwashing in the imperium varies. Certain planets are certainly more liberal in their belief in the emperor, especially certain far flung planets. Just look at the majority of humans within the Tau empire who still view the emperor as a god.

For some regiments such as the Catachans it's heavily hinted they are less religious than other human cultures. Also the use of religious language is no gauge on how "brainwashed" the average citizen in the imperium is. Back in 2nd and early 3rd ed, I actually remember for all intensive purposes PDF forces were the same as guard, with the late 3rd dex they finally stated that Imperial Guard Regiments were further indoctrinated than PDF forces. Even then Stormtroopers originally were no more religious than an average soldier.

Concerning dex fluff, I always take the view of the codex being written by that faction. Thus the the Guard dex being written in a manner akin to the Uplifting Primer (aka a lot of propaganda) and as such the units are not quite as religious as suggested. Also the very fact you have non chaos rebellions both on planets and Imperial Guard Regiments I seriously doubt that all Guard regiments are quite as indoctrinated as commonly suggested.

Now Scions have their own ridiculous fluff... supposedly replacing the old stormtroopers in GW crazy attempt to trademark stuff. Good old stormtroopers sadly no longer exist fluff wise. However their equivalents such as grenadiers still do so I just use their fluff for my army. Also while using orphans has historically been great at training elite troops, it also is not great at picking troops with initiative which is required for special forces which is something that has to be selected out of a pool as large as possible. Even the Spartans used semi-native troops who did not require to be trained from an early age to act as their equivalents of special forces.

Basically I think a lot of the Imperiums Fluff, especially concerning the Guard (Never will use the Star Military name) is completely ridiculous now.