ver 150 Students Walk Out Of School To Protest Transgender Teen Using Girls’ Locker Room

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**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

Lt. Coldfire wrote:
Here's the problem: what's going to stop straight guys by identifying as females so that they can hang out in the girls locker room and bathroom? I would definitely not put this past some of the kids I went to high school with if all it took was a wig and a declaration. If I was a parent of a female, I'd be disturbed.

That aside, call me old fashioned, but I think penises in one room and vaginas in another make the most sense.

In order to somebody to identify as female and get girls bathroom privilages I'd expect them to act and dress as a female at all times both in and out of school (and probably for a qualifying period of a few months first)

so while a straight non trans boy might give it a go, I really, really doubt they'd stick the grief it would give them

**Lt. Coldfire**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Lt. Coldfire wrote:
Here's the problem: what's going to stop straight guys by identifying as females so that they can hang out in the girls locker room and bathroom? I would definitely not put this past some of the kids I went to high school with if all it took was a wig and a declaration. If I was a parent of a female, I'd be disturbed.

That aside, call me old fashioned, but I think penises in one room and vaginas in another make the most sense.

In order to somebody to identify as female and get girls bathroom privilages I'd expect them to act and dress as a female at all times both in and out of school (and probably for a qualifying period of a few months first)

so while a straight non trans boy might give it a go, I really, really doubt they'd stick the grief it would give them

Great, now we need transgender police to make sure these people are conforming and not secretly dressing up as guys in their spare time. At a certain point, this could get confusing.

**whembly**

SilverMK2 wrote:
whembly wrote:
SilverMK2 wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Look, there's no good way here, its all grey. And before anyone calls me a bigot, they should realize the person they're calling that has opened up his house-and the implicit promise of safety that entails- to someone in this situation.

Realising the difficulty of the situation, examining the evidence and "solutions"/solutions developed to deal with similar issues, and working towards acceptable compromise is pretty much the opposite of "bigot".

Something that Lila needs to learn.

I'm not aware of her calling people who are not doing this "bigots"...

The school offered the compromise... the 3rd bathroom/changing room.

They certainly, nor should they, force Lila to only use male-only restroom/locker rooms.

**-Shrike-**

d-usa wrote:
I also agree that there are lots of grey areas. Do you take everyone that declares as x/y at face value? Do you start when people start to transition (although not all people choose to transition)? Do you go by when people are diagnosed (do trans people get diagnosed with gender identity disorder)? Do you go by surgery, which would exclude minors?

This, right here, is one of the problems I think a lot people have. Nobody (I hope) particularly cares about the girl who used to be a guy, but then got girl bits, took things to make her more like a girl, and dresses and looks like a girl as well. Things start to break down everywhere when the only way people can tell if you're a girl is either a bit of paper, or you're dressed up like one (in which case you could just be Scottish...

). To be perfectly honest, I don't have a solution. I'm an adult, and I probably won't have children of my own for a while, so I don't have much of a dog in this fight either.

I do think that court is going to be the best way to resolve instead of having thousands of districts make up their own rules.

Probably for the best, although any compromise will piss a lot of people off. That's life, I suppose.

**Relapse**

Who says Dakka is conservative again?

**Polonius**

Actually, this is exactly the sort of thing you want individual school districts determining on their own.

Assuming that the districts act in good faith, each school can adapt to local resources and needs.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:

And can we get away from the "you disagree so you're a bigot/freak" nonsense?

Well, some of the opinions shared here are pretty closed minded. One person straight up said that he disagreed with the legal, medical, and social determinations that people can be trans.

Is that bigotry? I'm not sure it's worth using that term, but when your point clearly comes from a place of contempt for a class of people... should we call them on it?

And keep in mind that society changes fast. 20 years ago, it was almost unthinkable in most places that a gay person could be in the Scouts, or organized sports, or the military. Now, young men are sharing tents and showers with young gay men every day, and its... fine. Casual homophobia was completely okay then, and it's basically unthinkable now.

Is trans acceptance different enough to not go down the same road? I'm thinking no. I think the revulsion about sex change is natural, if only because most people have more fluid sexuality than gender identity. Kinsey found, and there's little reason to doubt, that few people are 100% straight. Essentially, the idea of homosexual sex is more relatable to most people than a gender switch. I think if we set up a poll: "Would you rather switch your gender or your sexual orientation" orientation would win by a country mile.

**whembly**

Relapse wrote:
Who says Dakka is conservative again?

I know... right?!?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Polonius wrote:
Actually, this is exactly the sort of thing you want individual school districts determining on their own.

Assuming that the districts act in good faith, each school can adapt to local resources and needs.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

**TheMeanDM**

Girls should not be *forced* to look upon male genitalia. Plain and simple. Nor should boys be forced to look upon female genitalia.

There are still some parents who instill in their children to try to stay away from those kinds of situations until marriage. And there are those young adults that embrace those ideas.

It may be old fashioned, but does not mean it is wrong to not want to see all sorts of T&A or C&B....and there is no legitimate reason to force anyone to do so.

Until he has gender reassignment surgery....he is a he.

And if you want to get all science-y and stuff....he will never be a she because you can't change genetics.

**d-usa**

You probably shouldn't begin to talk about science if your posts is making it pretty clear that you don't have a knowledge base regarding the issue.

**Grey Templar**

Do you deny that, no matter how many hormone treatments someone has, no matter how much flesh is snipped, tucked, or sewn on, that person will always at the basic core of their genes, be what they were born as?

**d-usa**

Grey Templar wrote:
Do you deny that, no matter how many hormone treatments someone has, no matter how much flesh is snipped, tucked, or sewn on, that person will always at the basic core of their genes, be what they were born as?

There is no need to deny that since I'm not pretending that a quick peek at their crotch lets me know what they are genetically born as.

**TheMeanDM**

So genetics is not good enough of a science for you?

Are you simply trolling....?

Mmmm kay...tell that to your chromosomes.

**Desubot**

Wasn't there a fully functional female with all the working gizmos that some how had male chromosomes? i think i saw it on the discovery channel at one point.

(edit: mis remembering but maybe she didn't have fully functional components. i dont recall)

**d-usa**

TheMeanDM wrote:
So genetics is not good enough of a science for you?

Are you simply trolling....?

Mmmm kay...tell that to your chromosomes.

Just because you either don't understand the science or don't know the science doesn't mean that I am trolling. It simply means that you are ignorant on the subject, which can be fixed with education if one is willing to pursue the knowledge about a particular subject.

**Howard A Treesong**

Sometimes peoples genetics are gender ambiguous what with chromosomal abnormalities.

Gender reassignment is about altering the physical body to match the mind. The alternative is to alter the mind to match the physical body. Why is it that some feel the need to point out that when altering the body you are changing it from something genetically determined? Surely you could say the same about altering the mind. Or is it easier to forget the role of genetics in forming the mind there because it's not a physical attribute?

But that aside people change things about themselves all the time to make them something their genetics are not. Some people dye their hair. My genetics have made me short sighted but I'm going to correct my vision with glasses rather than choose to hold things much closer to my face to see them, as by genetics seems to have determined I don't need to see more than 6 inches away.

**CptJake**

SilverMK2 wrote:
whembly wrote:
SilverMK2 wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Look, there's no good way here, its all grey. And before anyone calls me a bigot, they should realize the person they're calling that has opened up his house-and the implicit promise of safety that entails- to someone in this situation.

Realising the difficulty of the situation, examining the evidence and "solutions"/solutions developed to deal with similar issues, and working towards acceptable compromise is pretty much the opposite of "bigot".

Something that Lila needs to learn.

I'm not aware of her calling people who are not doing this "bigots"...

See the following video:

About the 50 second mark.

**d-usa**

Howard A Treesong wrote:
Sometimes peoples genetics are gender ambiguous what with chromosomal abnormalities.

Gender reassignment is about altering the physical body to match the mind. The alternative is to alter the mind to match the physical body. Why is it that some feel the need to point out that when altering the body you are changing it from something genetically determined? Surely you could say the same about altering the mind. Or is it easier to forget the role of genetics in forming the mind there because it's not a physical attribute?

But that aside people change things about themselves all the time to make them something their genetics are not. Some people due their hair. My genetics have made me short sighted but I'm going to correct my vision with glasses rather than choose to hold things much closer to my face to see them, as by genetics seems to have determined I don't need to see more than 6 inches away.

Good post.

I think it may also help that there are two separate issues in the story here.

One is that people need to come to grips with their ignorance in what gender is and how genetics affects more then just the part between your legs and that gender, as developed due to your genetics, is not binary and that trans individuals are not just boys/girls acting like girls/boys the same way one might decide to be goth or any other phase that they are going through.

Separate from accepting that being transgender is a real thing, people then need to learn how to deal with the fact that transgender people exist and society will have to learn to adapt to one another.

**pities2004**

I'm pretty sure I saw this south park episode.

**easysauce**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Lt. Coldfire wrote:
Here's the problem: what's going to stop straight guys by identifying as females so that they can hang out in the girls locker room and bathroom? I would definitely not put this past some of the kids I went to high school with if all it took was a wig and a declaration. If I was a parent of a female, I'd be disturbed.

That aside, call me old fashioned, but I think penises in one room and vaginas in another make the most sense.

In order to somebody to identify as female and get girls bathroom privilages I'd expect them to act and dress as a female at all times both in and out of school (and probably for a qualifying period of a few months first)

so while a straight non trans boy might give it a go, I really, really doubt they'd stick the grief it would give them

Females can dress in any way they choose, why must you be so bigoted as to impliy females must dress a certain way?

Its 2015, women can wear the same clothes as men, little children can identify as women and still wear whatever clothes they want in whatever appearance they want.

All that matters is that they say they identify a certain way and we should just run with that.

**TheMeanDM**

http://www.britannica.com/science/hermaphroditism

There are only a very limited # of true hermaphroditic human beings.

There are pseudo-hermaphrodites.

"Such conditions are extremely rare in humans. In true gonadal intersex (or true hermaphroditism), an individual has both ovarian and testicular tissue. The ovarian and testicular tissue may be separate, or the two may be combined in what is called an ovotestis. Affected individuals have sex chromosomes showing male-female mosaicism (where one individual possesses both the male XY and female XX chromosome pairs). Most often, but not always, the chromosome complement is 46,XX, and in every such individual there also exists evidence of Y chromosomal material on one of the autosomes (any of the 22 pairs of chromosomes other than the sex chromosomes). Individuals with a 46,XX chromosome complement usually have ambiguous external genitalia with a sizable phallus and are therefore often reared as males. However, they develop breasts during puberty and menstruate and in only rare cases actually produce sperm. In 46,XX intersex (female pseudohermaphroditism), individuals have male external genitalia but the chromosomal constitution and reproductive organs of a female. In 46,XY (male pseudohermaphroditism), individuals have ambiguous or female external genitalia but the chromosomal constitution and reproductive organs of a male, though the testes may be malformed or absent."

Just to clarify: true hermaphrodites have equally developed and equally functioning sexual organs.

Only one place I saw gave an estimated % of "true" hermaphroditic humans, and that was less than 10%....that is..... less than 10% of patients that have some kind of extra dangly bits....which is already extremely rare.

So we are talking the rarest of the already rare.

**Grey Templar**

Desubot wrote:
Wasn't there a fully functional female with all the working gizmos that some how had male chromosomes? i think i saw it on the discovery channel at one point.

(edit: mis remembering but maybe she didn't have fully functional components. i dont recall)

I think I remember this. IIRC she had all the parts, but they weren't quite properly developed. And ovulation was messed up too IIRC.

As I recall, everyone's genetics has all the info to have a functioning set of either version of the sex organ. It depends on what hormone mixture you are subjected to while developing that determines which set of organs develops, this is determined by your actual chromosomes normally. But outside sources, or genetic defects, can cause the organ to improperly develop or for the wrong set to develop. And naturally you also need proper hormone's during puberty to have proper sex drive regulation, and just to make sure you have a functional set.

To use an example from animals, if you have a cow pregnant with twins, one male and one female, the male will very often have malformed sex organs or sometimes have female organs due to exposure to estrogen from the female twin. For some reason the opposite effect isn't true, at least for cows. Now this exact situation is, unlike in cows, not going to happen with humans because of the differences between us. But you could have another source of hormone, or maybe some imbalances caused by something happening with the pregnant mother, that could cause malformation.

**d-usa**

TheMeanDM wrote:
http://www.britannica.com/science/hermaphroditism

There are only a very limited # of true hermaphroditic human beings.

There are pseudo-hermaphrodites.

"Such conditions are extremely rare in humans. In true gonadal intersex (or true hermaphroditism), an individual has both ovarian and testicular tissue. The ovarian and testicular tissue may be separate, or the two may be combined in what is called an ovotestis. Affected individuals have sex chromosomes showing male-female mosaicism (where one individual possesses both the male XY and female XX chromosome pairs). Most often, but not always, the chromosome complement is 46,XX, and in every such individual there also exists evidence of Y chromosomal material on one of the autosomes (any of the 22 pairs of chromosomes other than the sex chromosomes). Individuals with a 46,XX chromosome complement usually have ambiguous external genitalia with a sizable phallus and are therefore often reared as males. However, they develop breasts during puberty and menstruate and in only rare cases actually produce sperm. In 46,XX intersex (female pseudohermaphroditism), individuals have male external genitalia but the chromosomal constitution and reproductive organs of a female. In 46,XY (male pseudohermaphroditism), individuals have ambiguous or female external genitalia but the chromosomal constitution and reproductive organs of a male, though the testes may be malformed or absent."

Just to clarify: true hermaphrodites have equally developed and equally functioning sexual organs.

Only one place I saw gave an estimated % of "true" hermaphroditic humans, and that was less than 10%....that is..... less than 10% of patients that have some kind of extra dangly bits....which is already extremely rare.

So we are talking the rarest of the already rare.

Good think that hermaphrodite doesn't equal transgender.

**TheMeanDM**

So its OK for the transgender individual to *force* everyone to look at their wang or their twang in the locker room....but its not ok for everyone to say "I don't want to see your wang or twang, please take it somewhere else."

Derp much?

**Psienesis**

You know that most public high schools don't actually have, like, active showers and the sort, right?

I mean, there's... not group-nudity involved in schools these days, hasn't been for like 40 years.

**Howard A Treesong**

The human body isn't supposed to support two sets reproductive organs which is why they don't work fully and the individual is not a true hermaphrodite in the biological sense, such as worms. There are all sorts of complications that arise from chromosome nondisjunction or transposition that mean the genes don't work as you'd expect them to. But that doesn't mean the individual doesn't posess genetic material both male and female which places them on a spectrum between the two sexes.

**TheMeanDM**

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS]

**agnosto**

Psienesis wrote:
You know that most public high schools don't actually have, like, active showers and the sort, right?

I mean, there's... not group-nudity involved in schools these days, hasn't been for like 40 years.

You don't know much about high schools then or how old they are it the concept of a locker room. I'm sure there are rich schools with separate changing areas for each individual but none that I'm aware of in my state.

**d-usa**

TheMeanDM wrote:
[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS]

So much rage, hormones doing okay?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

agnosto wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
You know that most public high schools don't actually have, like, active showers and the sort, right?

I mean, there's... not group-nudity involved in schools these days, hasn't been for like 40 years.

You don't know much about high schools then or how old they are it the concept of a locker room. I'm sure there are rich schools with separate changing areas for each individual but none that I'm aware of in my state.

This particular case deals with a restroom though, not a locker room. She dropped gym to avoid the locker room issue.

**Psienesis**

agnosto wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
You know that most public high schools don't actually have, like, active showers and the sort, right?

I mean, there's... not group-nudity involved in schools these days, hasn't been for like 40 years.

You don't know much about high schools then or how old they are it the concept of a locker room. I'm sure there are rich schools with separate changing areas for each individual but none that I'm aware of in my state.

I graduated high school over 20 years ago, and my experience was then (and shared by others I've met over the subsequent 20+ years) that showering and such simply didn't happen. You changed into whatever uniform you were required for gym class (generally shorts and a t-shirt), did whatever you did in class, changed back and went to your next class. The most you might chance to see is someone's underwear, if you were (for whatever reason) paying attention to something other than the locker in front of you.

In the 70s and prior? Yeah, showering after gym class was a near universal thing. Hence "like 40 years" since the 70s were (surprise!) 40 years ago. Now, if you're on a school athletic team (baseball, football, soccer, etc) then, yeah, you're going to be hitting the shower with the team... but that's not what this topic pertains to.

**TheMeanDM**

I graduated in 92 and we showered after gym class. *shrug*

Rage....bwahaha..aren't you cute :-D

Automatically Appended Next Post:

d-usa wrote:

This particular case deals with a restroom though, not a locker room. She dropped gym to avoid the locker room issue.

Did you read the article?

" Over 150 Missouri high school students voiced their displeasure about a transgender teen using the girls’ locker room by walking out of class.

Students at Hillsboro High School staged a two-hour walkout Monday over 17-year-old Lila Perry, a student who has identified as a female since she was 13, using the girls’ locker room during gym class.

The school offered Perry a gender-neutral bathroom, which she turned down. "