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 Xenomancers wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Why have so many in in this thread forgotten that sex =/= gender?

That might be the progressive status quo - but it doesn't fly in the "real world." In the real world sex = gender and there is nothing bigoted about saying that - it is scientific fact.

You keep on using that word...

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The only sex organ this person posses is a penis and you don't believe this is a man? Yet can claim I am not a woman and he is a woman just because he..."acts more girly"? come on man.

Are you serious?

I am being absolutely serious. Whats to stop any man from claiming to be transgender and going into a female locker room?

Your country has plenty of people walking around with guns. What's to stop any of them from shooting you because they feel like it?

Spoiler:

The answer: 1, because it has consequences.

2, because the majority of people are not douches.

True consequences. What could actually be the consequence here? What law are they breaking? Changing my gender too quickly? Also think about it...how man sick dudes are there out there that are willing to go through the process of having the cops called on them and spending a night in jail just to get a glimps of a naked female minor?

 Polonius wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

There's a reason why streakers go to jail or people who flash their genitalia at minors are labeled sex offenders; it has and continues to be societies stance that people of one sex do not need to be forced to look upon or be subjected to the presence of the opposite sex's naked genitalia. There are multiple reasons for this particular mores in society and to just ignore it all and say, "tough, deal with it" is ignoring that there is a perfectly legitimate argument against it.

Most streakers go to jail for disturbing the peace more than exposing themselves.

And the exposure laws I've seen have been narrowly written so as not to criminalize any viewing of your genitals, but only those that are alarming, harmful, or sexually motivated.

The laws actually reflect the idea that simply seeing naked people in a non-sexual way really isn't that big of a deal.

My state's statute on exposure:

Lewdly exposes his or her person or genitals in any public place, or in any place where there are present other persons to be offended or annoyed thereby

I bolded the "or" for you.

Guess what happens when you're convicted of a sex crime? Straight to the sex offender registry with you my friend and lord above help you if children are present. We put people in prison for decades for possessing an ounce of pot, just think what they do to people who expose themselves to children.

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

You didn't answer anything.
Becuase when a guy brings his willy into the girl's locker and shower room, the girls could press charges and have the guy arrested, no matter what preference or gender.

Highlighted the important part for you.

WRONG.
slick willy is the important part, else we wouldn't be having this conversation.

No, if a guy was going into the girl's locker room with his penis out we would not be having the conversation.

The conversation is about a transgender girl using the girl's locker room and a bunch of people who, at this point, are just willfully ignorant that gender is more than a piece of flesh between your legs.

You just said the same thing.
Does the transgender still have a penis?
Is so, end of story, no going into the gyno gifted locker room, else you go to jail.

 Xenomancers wrote:

True consequences. What could actually be the consequence here? What law are they breaking? Changing my gender too quickly? Also think about it...how man sick dudes are there out there that are willing to go through the process of having the cops called on them and spending a night in jail just to get a glimps of a naked female minor?

Sexual harassment is serious business. Behaving sufficiently inappropriately in a locker room is going to make people sue you no matter your gender.

 agnosto wrote:

My state's statute on exposure:

Lewdly exposes his or her person or genitals in any public place, or in any place where there are present other persons to be offended or annoyed thereby

I bolded the "or" for you.

Guess what happens when you're convicted of a sex crime? Straight to the sex offender registry with you my friend and lord above help you if children are present. We put people in prison for decades for possessing an ounce of pot, just think what they do to people who expose themselves to children.

I bolded the "lewdly" for you.

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

You didn't answer anything.
Becuase when a guy brings his willy into the girl's locker and shower room, the girls could press charges and have the guy arrested, no matter what preference or gender.

Highlighted the important part for you.

WRONG.
slick willy is the important part, else we wouldn't be having this conversation.

No, if a guy was going into the girl's locker room with his penis out we would not be having the conversation.

The conversation is about a transgender girl using the girl's locker room and a bunch of people who, at this point, are just willfully ignorant that gender is more than a piece of flesh between your legs.

You just said the same thing.
Does the transgender still have a penis?
Is so, end of story, no going into the gyno gifted locker room, else you go to jail.

Give up. We're all bigots for not wanting our daughters around a bare or nearly bare penis without our foreknowledge, consent or comment. I'm the slimiest bigot in the world for wanting parental say-so in when my daughter is exposed to male anatomy at school.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

True consequences. What could actually be the consequence here? What law are they breaking? Changing my gender too quickly? Also think about it...how man sick dudes are there out there that are willing to go through the process of having the cops called on them and spending a night in jail just to get a glimps of a naked female minor?

Sexual harassment is serious business. Behaving sufficiently inappropriately in a locker room is going to make people sue you no matter your gender.

It is indeed.

Hence why we should separate people by their physical differences. You claim your a girl? Ok, but you still got a wang, use the room for persons who have wangs.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Its more than that, but whats between your legs is a vitally important part of that.

Your brain, your hormones, and your genetics are going to be more important parts of your identity than your genitals. That's where your identity is formed, not between your legs.

And I think its the only part that should be considered in the case of restrooms.

And like I have said quite a few times, how transgender people integrate with society and how society should accept them and how both groups should interact is a good thing to talk about.

But there is still, despite many attempts at education, the argument that "he's a guy as long as he has a dick, no matter what", together with people making jokes about pretending to be transgender to get a thrill, comparing being transgender to thinking you are a chicken.

If people want to know why transgender have a high suicide rate? Look at some of the responses in this thread and you will find the cause, it's not because they were "allowed" to pick a gender before they were 18.

Speaking as a woman, I have had transwomen in the same locker room as me before, and it has never caused any issues. They are typically rather discreet.

If someone were to start staring a lot, it would be a cause of concern, but I doubt it is something I will ever see happen. Those peeping bogeymen seem to permanently reside under my bed together with the rest of the monsters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:


It is indeed.

Hence why we should separate people by their physical differences. You claim your a girl? Ok, but you still got a wang, use the room for persons who have wangs.

It does not say wang on the door, though.

 agnosto wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

You didn't answer anything.
Becuase when a guy brings his willy into the girl's locker and shower room, the girls could press charges and have the guy arrested, no matter what preference or gender.

Highlighted the important part for you.

WRONG.
slick willy is the important part, else we wouldn't be having this conversation.

No, if a guy was going into the girl's locker room with his penis out we would not be having the conversation.

The conversation is about a transgender girl using the girl's locker room and a bunch of people who, at this point, are just willfully ignorant that gender is more than a piece of flesh between your legs.

You just said the same thing.
Does the transgender still have a penis?
Is so, end of story, no going into the gyno gifted locker room, else you go to jail.

Give up. We're all bigots for not wanting our daughters around a bare or nearly bare penis without our foreknowledge, consent or comment. I'm the slimiest bigot in the world for wanting parental say-so in when my daughter is exposed to male anatomy at school.

yep, apparently im a bigot to because I dont want my daughter exposed to male genitalia in her middle/high school. Im such a bigot....

Well at least you admit it.

 Polonius wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

My state's statute on exposure:

Lewdly exposes his or her person or genitals in any public place, or in any place where there are present other persons to be offended or annoyed thereby

I bolded the "or" for you.

Guess what happens when you're convicted of a sex crime? Straight to the sex offender registry with you my friend and lord above help you if children are present. We put people in prison for decades for possessing an ounce of pot, just think what they do to people who expose themselves to children.

I bolded the "lewdly" for you.

That only applies to the first half.

There are 2 situations for defining exposure by that statute.

If you lewdly expose your genitals in a public place.

or if you expose yourself in any place where people who might be offended or annoyed by it.

 agnosto wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

You didn't answer anything.
Becuase when a guy brings his willy into the girl's locker and shower room, the girls could press charges and have the guy arrested, no matter what preference or gender.

Highlighted the important part for you.

WRONG.
slick willy is the important part, else we wouldn't be having this conversation.

No, if a guy was going into the girl's locker room with his penis out we would not be having the conversation.

The conversation is about a transgender girl using the girl's locker room and a bunch of people who, at this point, are just willfully ignorant that gender is more than a piece of flesh between your legs.

You just said the same thing.
Does the transgender still have a penis?
Is so, end of story, no going into the gyno gifted locker room, else you go to jail.

Give up. We're all bigots for not wanting our daughters around a bare or nearly bare penis without our foreknowledge, consent or comment. I'm the slimiest bigot in the world for wanting parental say-so in when my daughter is exposed to male anatomy at school.

As a fellow dad, agreed.

I should note the counter argument is for locker room access. That includes showers. I don't care what their mental state is, this concept is just stupid.

 agnosto wrote:

Give up. We're all bigots for not wanting our daughters around a bare or nearly bare penis without our foreknowledge, consent or comment. I'm the slimiest bigot in the world for wanting parental say-so in when my daughter is exposed to male anatomy at school.

I hope you don't feel too attacked. I don't think you're being a bigot. You and Frazz have both spoken respectfully about the woman in question, and I don't think you're concern is coming from a bad place.

I think you are overvaluing the need to protect high school age girls from seeing a penis, but I'm not a father, so I can understand your concern.

I also think you're undervaluing the psychological harm it does to be further singled out. As I've said multiple times, I think the private room was a reasonable compromise in the situation.

Personally, I don't see the problem with having a person with a penis, that's not sexually interested in the women around him, changing with women. I think that there's a good point to be made that the women in question should have at least some say, which is a point I find more persuasive than parental rights.

So why are you arguing this person should be allowed to use the women's locker room? Especially when those other women in question are making it clear they do NOT want someone with a penis in their locker room.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
Well at least you admit it.

Please, take your ass into a woman's locker room and let it all hang out in the shower with them. Tell me how long it is before you are bounced out of there, with the local constabulary demonstrating why a billy club may be less effective than a taser on a shot per shot basis, but it is oh so much more satisfying.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Speaking as a woman, I have had transwomen in the same locker room as me before, and it has never caused any issues. They are typically rather discreet.

If someone were to start staring a lot, it would be a cause of concern, but I doubt it is something I will ever see happen. Those peeping bogeymen seem to permanently reside under my bed together with the rest of the monsters.

I would have thought that would be the last place you would want them.

 agnosto wrote:

Give up. We're all bigots for not wanting our daughters around a bare or nearly bare penis without our foreknowledge, consent or comment. I'm the slimiest bigot in the world for wanting parental say-so in when my daughter is exposed to male anatomy at school.

That is perhaps the single most disappointing post to me in this thread. And it is especially hurtful coming from you considering that it is quoting me.

I have not called a single person in here a bigot. I have not called you a bigot. I have not call Frazzled a bigot.

I have stated over and over again that I am fine with working out a solution and that I realize that it is a difficult solution.

I have also stated over and over again that the big thing that is bothering me is the dismissal of "transgender" being a real thing and the failure to realize that the brain has a huge role in identity when it comes to gender and that you can biologically be a gender other than your genitals. And I honestly don't feel that this last point was ever something that I ever really felt any disagreement from you. I might have felt that you have a problem with your daughter seeing a penis, but I think you have managed to make it clear that you don't have a problem with her seeing a "guy pretending to be a girl" or anything like that and you have stated that if there was no chance of genital exposure (stalls or whatnot being present) your concern would be gone.

There are quite a few people throwing bigot around like candy at carnival and I don't think name calling helps anyone, but I am not one of them.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

My state's statute on exposure:

Lewdly exposes his or her person or genitals in any public place, or in any place where there are present other persons to be offended or annoyed thereby

I bolded the "or" for you.

Guess what happens when you're convicted of a sex crime? Straight to the sex offender registry with you my friend and lord above help you if children are present. We put people in prison for decades for possessing an ounce of pot, just think what they do to people who expose themselves to children.

I bolded the "lewdly" for you.

That only applies to the first half.

There are 2 situations for defining exposure by that statute.

If you lewdly expose your genitals in a public place.

or if you expose yourself in any place where people who might be offended or annoyed by it.

No, Lewdly applies to both. The verb is expose, and lewdly is an adverb modifying that verb. Any use of exposed in that sentence will be modified by lewdly.

Otherwise, the sentence doesn't make any sense.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Speaking as a woman, I have had transwomen in the same locker room as me before, and it has never caused any issues. They are typically rather discreet.

If someone were to start staring a lot, it would be a cause of concern, but I doubt it is something I will ever see happen. Those peeping bogeymen seem to permanently reside under my bed together with the rest of the monsters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:


It is indeed.

Hence why we should separate people by their physical differences. You claim your a girl? Ok, but you still got a wang, use the room for persons who have wangs.

It does not say wang on the door, though.

There is a cultural difference here though. In europe there are unisex bathrooms and people pee in the streets in public urinals. The united states is different. In the US people are parinoid about the opposite sex seeing their junk and there is nothing wrong with that,

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Speaking as a woman, I have had transwomen in the same locker room as me before, and it has never caused any issues. They are typically rather discreet.

If someone were to start staring a lot, it would be a cause of concern, but I doubt it is something I will ever see happen. Those peeping bogeymen seem to permanently reside under my bed together with the rest of the monsters.

I would have thought that would be the last place you would want them.

My CSM army resides under my bed. There's enough spikes in there to bleed an army.

 Polonius wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

My state's statute on exposure:

Lewdly exposes his or her person or genitals in any public place, or in any place where there are present other persons to be offended or annoyed thereby

I bolded the "or" for you.

Guess what happens when you're convicted of a sex crime? Straight to the sex offender registry with you my friend and lord above help you if children are present. We put people in prison for decades for possessing an ounce of pot, just think what they do to people who expose themselves to children.

I bolded the "lewdly" for you.

Are you willfully ignoring the "or" in there? Lewd doesn't have to occur for an arrest or conviction to take place.

Edit:

Bleh, you're right about the "lewd" part but lewd is just defined in my state as something done for sexual gratification. A fairly low bar. But none of this is on topic, heck I can't remember how I got on this tangent. Where's my maalox?

 d-usa wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Why have so many in in this thread forgotten that sex =/= gender?

That might be the progressive status quo - but it doesn't fly in the "real world." In the real world sex = gender and there is nothing bigoted about saying that - it is scientific fact.

You keep on using that word...

I can offer you my anatomy books from college. I assure you it tells you how to determine a male or female in there. To be fair I get what you are saying. Psychology isn't actually a testable science - it's constantly changing and no one agrees on anything because no one really understands how these things work. There is no science to support why gays are gay or why transgender are transgender - it's all theory and wild ideas. Until recently transgender people were considered to have mental disorders...I am inclined to agree. Plenty of evidence suggests that sexuality is a learned behavior.

 Xenomancers wrote:

There is a cultural difference here though. In europe there are unisex bathrooms and people pee in the streets in public urinals. The united states is different. In the US people are parinoid about the opposite sex seeing their junk and there is nothing wrong with that,

I have never seen a street urinal in my life.

 Frazzled wrote:

 MrDwhitey wrote:
Well at least you admit it.

Please, take your ass into a woman's locker room and let it all hang out in the shower with them. Tell me how long it is before you are bounced out of there, with the local constabulary demonstrating why a billy club may be less effective than a taser on a shot per shot basis, but it is oh so much more satisfying.

Please, uh, get hit by a bus? I don't know. Maybe a car. I'll let you choose.

 Xenomancers wrote:
there is nothing wrong with that,

Well, aside from one of the highest teen birthrates in the industrial world, and the time and expense spent by people in therapy for the sexual repression pounded into them as children.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

There is a cultural difference here though. In europe there are unisex bathrooms and people pee in the streets in public urinals. The united states is different. In the US people are parinoid about the opposite sex seeing their junk and there is nothing wrong with that,

I have never seen a street urinal in my life.

There's plenty of them in London at about 1am.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I can offer you my anatomy books from college. I assure you it tells you how to determine a male or female in there.

Male does not have to equal man, and vice versa.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

There is a cultural difference here though. In europe there are unisex bathrooms and people pee in the streets in public urinals. The united states is different. In the US people are parinoid about the opposite sex seeing their junk and there is nothing wrong with that,

I have never seen a street urinal in my life.

They bring them out during festivals.