Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Let me start by saying I love ITC and the rules they created very much have a place in the mainstream tournament scene.

I'm really more curious what the changes in meta would be or what kind of craziness would you bring to such an event?
If a tournament was done by the book rules with the only limit being no unbound at 1850 points, what are you bringing to the table and / or what are you most scared of seeing?

Dark Eldar can run units of 1 model for 10 points each.
If you make detachments unlimited, for every 160 points, I could run 10 units.

If you lack the ability to target multiple units at once, you can shut down your opponent with their inability to engage enough units at once.

This about it, 1600 points is 100 units.
It's a very tough thing to deal with, as an entire unit of yours is going to kill 1 model.

MSU is definitely the biggest issue with unbound.

Even just removing the max of 2 detachments opens up a rediculous option for Eldar: 3 CADs, 3xFarseer, 18x3 units of scat bikes. That gives you objective secured on 18 units that can be anywhere on the board in one turn, and *216* S6 shots per shooting phase, and a very strong psycher phase to boot.

@hawaiimatt - do you really think that's very viable? How many people even have the models to bring for that?

@deathypoo - that's a fairly scary list for most I suppose but that would also have some difficult match ups against some top lists. I get what you're saying tho, spamming msu is probably the scariest thing I can think of as well especially in a mission based environment.

I do, DayOne. I have enough to bring 1200 points worth of Ur-Ghuls, all in one man units. It'd be an Unbound list, though. You'd need a unit of warriors apiece to make it battle forged.

However, two units of warriors toting a blaster, each in a Venom, plus a ten pt HQ runs 250 points. And there's lots of DE players who could spam those out the wazoo. Throw in a unit or two of Scourges to deal with vehicle heavy lists, and you actually have something fairly competitive.

Actually, the Freakshow lists I've been going on about for some time now are quite competitive, and even more so when there are no limits to number of detachments. With 3-6 detachments, a Freakshow list can absolutely crush virtually any opponent it comes up against. My lists tend to run 3-4 sources, with 4-6 detachments being common in the 1750+ range.

If it is any consolation, I tend to agree with you, actually. I would love, just once, to see a tournament where we played by the rules, just to see how bad it got. I have a suspicion we're all mature enough that the sky would fail to fall as predicted, but I know for a fact there are at least a couple of guys I play with who think I'm just the kind of player that a two detachment limit is designed to hold in check.

How many units can you fire per turn? Enough to kill 185 units?

Not to mention, cover saves, blocking line of sight, while making sure your list can deal with other armies.

To be fair, the OP did say 'no unbound.' That makes it a little less easy to spam 100+ units.

Missed that. Still, Lhamaneas is only 10 points, as are Khymeras. Matt pointed out you can fit in 8 between them , spending 80 points on Kabalite tax

DayOne916247 wrote:
Let me start by saying I love ITC and the rules they created very much have a place in the mainstream tournament scene.

I'm really more curious what the changes in meta would be or what kind of craziness would you bring to such an event?
If a tournament was done by the book rules with the only limit being no unbound at 1850 points, what are you bringing to the table and / or what are you most scared of seeing?

As Jimsolo pointed out, the limits on the number of detachments is there to keep certain armies from spamming the everloving feth out of certian units and formations.

If you want a good example of how even a small change in these rules can shift the meta, the ITC decided to allow armies to take a single duplicate formation. This might sound small ,but it's a colossal shift. Space Marines can bring double Skyhammer, and Necrons can bring double Decurion Canoptek Harvest. Be afraid. Be very very afraid. At least this will let me take a trolltastic Eldar list to my FLGS's March Madness tournament: Aspect Spam!

In the extremely unlikely event a tournament was held that would adhere absolutely to the RAW, I would bring a list that had psyker Independent Characters and units either composed of psykers or containing a psyker. Alternatively, two psyker Independent Characters can hold hands to become one unit. The game breaks the second I begin my psychic phase, resulting in an automatic draw and quite possibly the shortest game of 40k ever played.

One presumes that by 'by the rules' the OP didn't mean that grey areas in need of an FAQ would remain unresolved. However, most major tournaments also include some extensive house rules in their FAQs. And it might be interesting to see a single competitive event try to fly without the comfort of that particular safety net.

You can bring 74 naked inquisitors at 1850, and still be battleforged.

Lets see

Renegade minimum CAD is only 105 pts
Then I just spam Daemon Allied Detachments for multiple Lvl 3 Heralds and a Pink Horror squad.

At 1850 I can take 14 Lvl 3 psykers and 4 11x pink horrors squads giving me 50 warp charges to start

Consider this:

Dark Angels Combined Arms Detachment, Company Master, 2 units of scouts, spartan assault tank with armored ceramite
Now take 25 Inquisitors with power armor and rad-grenades
Disembark from the spartan so that the inquisitors will be separated into separate units (or atleast enough separate units). ANYTHING that they charge will die (if you disembarked properly) from having their toughness reduced to 0.

Unlimited number of eldar aspect host formations is the most obvious problem-list I think. You could fit around 80 warp spiders into a 1850 points battle forged list.

There's a 64 man GT coming up at the local shop that's using ITC FAQ except invisibility and D table are RAW, and a couple other little things as well and list building is battleforged with no detachment limits.
Missions will be 2 ITC missions, 2 nova missions, 1 purge the alien mission and 1 maelstrom mission with slight changes.

That's my main reason for posting was to figure out what might show up. As far as I know there are only 2-3 local dark eldar players and no inquisition players that I'm aware of, so I highly doubt anyone will spam those million unit armies discussed above and even so the chances of facing them is low imo but hey maybe I'll be surprised.

I'm not trying to shoot down ideas and honestly I never thought of those so I appreciate the knowledge of whats possible

I'm planning on bringing a centstar list and still working on details and combinations so interested in seeing what people might bring to adjust my list.
I'm expecting lots and lots of gladius regardless of the detachment freedom just because it's so good at what it does.

Rad grenades stack with eachother? That would be broken in unlimited detachments. On the bright side, it would hard counter rerollable 2++.

Mavnas wrote:
Rad grenades stack with eachother? That would be broken in unlimited detachments. On the bright side, it would hard counter rerollable 2++.

Unless they changed the Rad Grenade entry for Inquisition in an update, then they should. A unit is forbidden from gaining the benefit of a rule multiple times, but negatives will stack, so long as the wording of the rule supports it. As long as the unit is being charged by multiple units of Rad-bearers (rather than a single unit with multiple Inquisitors) then they should stack together.

I never understood why event organisers put generic restrictions on list as a means of targeting specific problems.

I remember in whfb 7th things like double hell pits or double steam tanks were considered unsporting, so rather than targeting these specific problem units tournaments would blanket 'no double rares'.

This restriction meant beastmen players couldn't take double ghorgons, or orcs couldn't take double giants, which are units that only really have a chance to be effective once target satuation is acquired.

In my opinion event organisers should try to be as specific as possible in their restrictions to maximise the variety for everyone, whilst controlling the extremes of extreme lists.

nareik wrote:
I never understood why event organisers put generic restrictions on list as a means of targeting specific problems.

I remember in whfb 7th things like double hell pits or double steam tanks were considered unsporting, so rather than targeting these specific problem units tournaments would blanket 'no double rares'.

This restriction meant beastmen players couldn't take double ghorgons, or orcs couldn't take double giants, which are units that only really have a chance to be effective once target satuation is acquired.

In my opinion event organisers should try to be as specific as possible in their restrictions to maximise the variety for everyone, whilst controlling the extremes of extreme lists.

But it isn't a specific problem. Even if you remove unbound, most armies can pull off the trick of having multiple dozen units in the same army. Because shooting only works on a unit by unit basis, you can only shoot at so many units a turn. It's the ultimate extension of MSU.

I don't think anything other than ranged D should be banned, merely restricted in such as way as to balance out what most armies can put on the tabletop.

How many armies could do that, though, and make an effective list?

 Jimsolo wrote:
How many armies could do that, though, and make an effective list?

It only needs to be effective in the sense that your opponent can't possibly kill every unit by game's end, leaving you in control of the objectives.

Thanks to Allies, and Imperium army can pull this off. I'm partial to the army of 100 Eversor Assassins myself.

If you can't kill THEIR units effectively, the best you get is a draw.

 Jimsolo wrote:
If you can't kill THEIR units effectively, the best you get is a draw.

100 Eversor Assassins should kill pretty much anything.

There's also the element of time to consider. You can slow-roll your opponent to the point where you win on objectives. Heck, some horde armies can do this in one detachment.

the biggest issue is that everything becomes fair game and it would be a mad house, when you go unbound ANYTHING becomes fieldable even forgeworld. you cant filter them out anymore and that means all kinds of nonsense ensue

 ionusx wrote:
the biggest issue is that everything becomes fair game and it would be a mad house, when you go unbound ANYTHING becomes fieldable even forgeworld. you cant filter them out anymore and that means all kinds of nonsense ensue

what does Forgeworld have to do with Unbound...?

 Vaktathi wrote:

 ionusx wrote:
the biggest issue is that everything becomes fair game and it would be a mad house, when you go unbound ANYTHING becomes fieldable even forgeworld. you cant filter them out anymore and that means all kinds of nonsense ensue

what does Forgeworld have to do with Unbound...?

I think the poster may believe that Forgeworld products are not allowed in 40k games, even if they have been issued with experimental rulesets. They're truly missing out.

Unbound can be fun, but it depands on the local meta. It can mean anything fro an all-walker CSM army with a Warpsmith to an Eldar army of six Wraithknights. Some sort of limit is necessary to the number of sources, formations, and detachments while still allowing people to take advantage of 7th edition's flexibility in terms of army composition.

I know forgeworld are allowed and use them regularly

 CrownAxe wrote:
Then I just spam Daemon Allied Detachments for multiple Lvl 3 Heralds and a Pink Horror squad.

At 1850 I can take 14 Lvl 3 psykers and 4 11x pink horrors squads giving me 50 warp charges to start

And if you had the models, you could turn a lot of those into greater daemons or just massively increase the size of your army with summoning.

I think that's the biggest issue with a lot of what people are proposing here.... How many people in the world actually own 100 of any of the assassins let alone the same one for example? Not trying to pick on that post because it would be a crazy to kill army but seriously that's not a concern to see that show up because it's simply not real. Most players that go to tournaments have excess models from what's in their normal lists but they don't have stuff like that lol

I guess what I would like to know is there so crazy combo that gets unlocked with unlimited detachments for example? Is there something extra that I've never seen before because of this style of event?

I imagine lots of the top ITC lists will still show up but with something random thrown in as an additional detachment that helps in some way.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 ionusx wrote:
the biggest issue is that everything becomes fair game and it would be a mad house, when you go unbound ANYTHING becomes fieldable even forgeworld. you cant filter them out anymore and that means all kinds of nonsense ensue

what does Forgeworld have to do with Unbound...?

unbound rules literally mean EVERYTHING even forgeworld, even horus heresy only models. suddenly armies you dont even have to think about in a tournment setting become a real thing, as do bringing models you normally wouldnt have too. the tournament wouldnt come down to a winner based on what list he brought or how good a player he was it would come down to who happened to have the best hard counter in his list to the other guy and how long it stayed in play.