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To be fair, it's not clear that the Protoss are dying per se in Starcraft. They just have some homeworld issues with the Zerg. There are a couple of young Protoss characters, so it's clear they can still reproduce.
Also, given the lack of restrictions of any kind of CWE lists, I question GW's own fluff about the Eldar. They seem perfectly okay to me. Again, tabletop reality >>>>>>>> fluff.
pumpinchimp wrote: I like Tau because they are the most Sci-Fi of the factions.
What do you mean by "most sci fi?" Maybe in a Star Trek space opera or Orweillian Dystopia sense. But if you like Jack Vance Dying Earth style techno-barbarism then Space Marines are most sci fi. Weird Tales Magazine classic 60s paperback pulp scifi? Reach for AdMech. More of a near future Enders game/Starship Troopers scifi fan? IG is the most sci fi. Star Wars space monks with hand wavey tech? Back to Marines. Heinlein robots and cyborgs mixed with some classic early 50s Death Rays and Doom Engines and Heat Beams? Necrons are most sci fi.
40k is a big big place. So is sci fi.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
pumpinchimp wrote: I like Tau because they are the most Sci-Fi of the factions.
What do you mean by "most sci fi?" Maybe in a Star Trek space opera or Orweillian Dystopia sense. But if you like Jack Vance Dying Earth style techno-barbarism then Space Marines are most sci fi. Weird Tales Magazine classic 60s paperback pulp scifi? Reach for AdMech. More of a near future Enders game/Starship Troopers scifi fan? IG is the most sci fi. Star Wars space monks with hand wavey tech? Back to Marines. Heinlein robots and cyborgs mixed with some classic early 50s Death Rays and Doom Engines and Heat Beams? Necrons are most sci fi.
40k is a big big place. So is sci fi.
40k actually falls under the fantasy genre (science fantasy to be specific), not sci fi. (sci fi does not allow supernatural elements). That is also why the Tau stand out so much, as they are the only faction without supernatural themes.
Gamgee wrote: They have nothing in common with Japan. At all. Imperial Japan has much more in common culturally with the Imperium of Man. I mean suicide attacks, worship of an Emperor, love of mecha, sisters of battle waifu crap.
The Tau have more in common with the Classical Greek Republic, Star Trek Federation, and Brave New World all shmushed together. Tau aren't even communist their utilitarians.
Visually they are Asian looking. That's about it.
Edit
Oh they've also been given a Japanese/Asian accent in the games as well.
It's Chinese... Shas'o for one is a slang word for warrior. The word is used in the Firefly series (to describe Zoey in, The Message), in the boxed set they explain about various slang or informal chinese words. The elemental caste system is also based on china's many caste systems through several dynasty's. The Elemental (the people...peasants, traders, scholars) and Ethereal (the inhabitants of the Celestial/Forbidden Palace, or those who ruled the people)
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Bottom line the hate that the Tau get is completely overdone and overblown, especially in light of recent codex releases. The Tau have some strong stuff and some shenanigans but I can point to almost any other army and point out just as many ridiculous or even more ridiculous shenanigans that they have access to. I don't know why but the majority of heat seems to stem from Imperial players which I hate to say I have no sympathy for especially with the new Marines, Skitarii/Mechanicum, Imperial Knights ect.
Now this isn't a flame post against Imperial Armies because my first and favorite Army is the Imperial Guard and always will be. However I do feel that more players need to spend time talking tactics to deal with stuff they are struggling with rather then complain and moan about it and demand they are nerfed into the ground.
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pumpinchimp wrote: I like Tau because they are the most Sci-Fi of the factions.
What do you mean by "most sci fi?" Maybe in a Star Trek space opera or Orweillian Dystopia sense. But if you like Jack Vance Dying Earth style techno-barbarism then Space Marines are most sci fi. Weird Tales Magazine classic 60s paperback pulp scifi? Reach for AdMech. More of a near future Enders game/Starship Troopers scifi fan? IG is the most sci fi. Star Wars space monks with hand wavey tech? Back to Marines. Heinlein robots and cyborgs mixed with some classic early 50s Death Rays and Doom Engines and Heat Beams? Necrons are most sci fi.
40k is a big big place. So is sci fi.
40k actually falls under the fantasy genre (science fantasy to be specific), not sci fi. (sci fi does not allow supernatural elements). That is also why the Tau stand out so much, as they are the only faction without supernatural themes.
What Iron Captain said, 40K is more fantasy in space than Sci-Fi. Most of the races have traditional fantasy counterparts, Eldar are space elves and necrons are space-undead. Tau are the most 'alien'.
(I don't agree with sci-fi not allowing supernatural elements though).
You think the Tau hate is bad, imagine what Eldar players are getting right now. Many people refuse to play even against tame Eldar lists. I don't 'really hate Tau myself, I just think that people try to make them out to not be grimdark, and that doesn't really fit with the lore.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/09/09 13:34:10
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Sci fi is completely rife with supernatural themes. Watch a few episodes of Star Trek and tell me how long it takes to run into something omnipotent/fueled by emotion/beyond the boundaries of space/transdimentional. That's what daemons and psykers are in 40k-they're an established transdimensional entity that is well explained in canon and acts under a consistent set of rules.
It's less fantasy than something like "the force" in Star Wars, or telepathic communication in Enders Game, or any huge number of fantastic elements in the works of Jules Verne or Heinlein.
40k hasn't been "Soft Sci Fi" on the level of Star Wars or Dying Earth since before 2nd ed, or whenever psykers and the warp got a concrete explanation.
And besides that, many armies don't touch the Warp in any way, or do so as much as tau do (their lack of psykers is explained in fluff): Necrons, Dark Eldar, The Mechanicum, and Tyranids have little to no "supernatural" elements beyond their fantastical technology, which Tau also have.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Melissia wrote: You think the Tau hate is bad, imagine what Eldar players are getting right now. Many people refuse to play even against tame Eldar lists. I don't 'really hate Tau myself, I just think that people try to make them out to not be grimdark, and that doesn't really fit with the lore.
See anyone that just quits without even attempting to play against the army I have no respect for. Granted if I was bringing a fluffy list and my opponent brought the biggest cheesiest Eldar list he could then I can understand their complaints. However if you are bringing a team list and I still refuse to play then it's their own issue. People need to realize you're not going to get better unless you play against the stuff you struggle with to learn how to beat it. Personally I like a challenge and firmly believe that people have the right to play with what they want to play with how they want to play it. All I ask is that they let me know if its competitive list or a fun list before hand so I can prepare accordingly.
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They're a "tack-on" army, who never felt fully like a part of the fluff. I do enjoy their story and think it's neat, but it has always felt like it was added to an already robust storyline.
Their asthetic is great, but their vehicles were always like, pseudo-Eldar, which bothered me It's not as fluid and nice as Eldar, but it is pleasant. The suits are really where they seperate themselves from the rest, but it's not quite my favorite either.
The thing I truely dislike about the Tau is the table top game play. It's never fun. I personally have a good track record against Tau, but even during victory these are some of the toughest battles to win. The battle is always a stressful time and rarely has those cool 40k moments. Also, they ignore some of the basic tenants of the game, which i feel is a poorly thought out thing which robs the fun from the other races. Too many ways to ignore cover and LOS. It takes no work to win with Tau, it's just sit back and shoot. My buddy does run a Farsight bomb and though it's not much worse than a Cent bomb (I don't like those either!), it is stupid that a unit can deep strike without deviation, ignore cover, twin link, and fire at as many targets as the please. Where is the fun? The more entertaining lists tend to be riptide spam or firewarrior spam. At least these lists look like they take finesse and are fun to play with and against.
In the end no one is more or less deserving to be in 40k. The whole idea of it was a role-playing like setting with many races to entertain the masses. While it may not be my particular cup of tea, Tau is cool, and I really hope their new book refreshes them and makes them fun to play and fun to play against, and not just another power dex.
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The idea and the background of the tau I love.
The effective shooting combined with good defence, nasty overwatch and double movement I hate as an ork player who likes to foot slog.
So it isn't you or the tau its their suits and their rules
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j31c3n wrote: The Protoss are the Eldar, not the Tau. Sheesh.
Pardon?
Protoss are psionic, came before the Tau even existed, are few and are an old civilization in the galaxy.
They're much closer to the Eldar than the Tau
But their government and philosophy is more akin to that of Tau than the Eldar. Additionally the Tau current history of the whole Farsight Enclave is closer to the plight of the Dark Templars in the face of the Conclave, than the Protoss story is to that of the Eldar post origination.
Maybe it's just both, the origin story is obviously closer to the Eldar, which would make sense since Blizzard couldn't base it off the Tau, but Tau probably draw some inspiration from the Protoss too.
Gonna chime in here and say that I think the Protoss definitely have links with the Eldar rather than the Tau, though my Starcraft knowledge is hardly stellar. They're an ancient dying race of highly psychic technologically advanced aliens whom have lost their homeworld(s). I'm pretty sure the 'Immortal' unit is a dead protoss put in a walker as well! Even if they're physically very different, the back story definitely has similarities.
I don't think the Protoss are a dying race, in fact from what I remember they were in a pretty good state at the start of Starcraft, with Auir being in a kind of golden age. They did lose a lot to the Zerg invasion, but they simply reunited their race and moved to Shakuras, which was the home planet of the Dark Templar, which they made their new home planet. They still have tons of colonies and stuff, along with military bases on other planets.
Nope, the Dragoons and the new upgraded model of the Immortal are not dead at all. They are crippled veterans who volunteer to be put in them for the greater good of their race, despite it meaning that they'll live the remainder of their life in what's essentially a giant bubble filled with disinfectant. They're kind of like a Dreadnaught, where the pilot has the choice to become one, and not so much a Wrath-thing.
I don't HATE Tau, I just think they're an inherently flawed faxtion by design (from a game stand-point). The game heavily favors shooting over close combat and Tau are designed around the fact that "they don't have melee hence they should be the best at shooting". Well ok I get where they coming from but that's just not fun. Even a moderately strong shooting army can just nuke most CC armies off the table (with the exception of competitive daemon lists).
Not having CC is definitely not a disadvantage when the enemy can't get to you.
Also, Markerlights. feth markelights. They're the dumbest pieces of wargear any army has. It just gets rid of certain tactical elements entirely.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/09 22:25:17
You don't have to be happy when you lose, just don't make winning the condition of your happiness.
DaPino wrote: I
Also, Markerlights. feth markelights. They're the dumbest pieces of wargear any army has. It just gets rid of certain tactical elements entirely.
But it adds the tactic where you kill those soft Markerlight units so they can't buff the Riptide. They have 4+ armor at the most and die when hit by a stiff breeze. Or possibly a heavy flamer.
It is all automatic, cheap and they have a ton of it.
The best thing is Tau is no longer battle brothers with eldar and ICs cannot join MCs.
You know what else has those rules? Many units in the Imperium, as well as other xenos factions. Furthermore, Tau have to pay for their markerlights and interceptor/skyfire upgrades.
You know how everyone says guard use flashlight and can't hit the side of a barn, like how we call ultrasmurfs space marines, like how we pick on necron and eldar players, like how we pick on etc etc etc.
Iron_Captain wrote: 40k actually falls under the fantasy genre (science fantasy to be specific), not sci fi. (sci fi does not allow supernatural elements). That is also why the Tau stand out so much, as they are the only faction without supernatural themes.
What if supernatural themes are based using science? In science you are allowed to make science up, thus faster than light travel etc. Fantasy would be the original star wars trilogy.
Baldeagle91 wrote:Oh ffs OP.... it's called banter.
You know how everyone says guard use flashlight and can't hit the side of a barn, like how we call ultrasmurfs space marines, like how we pick on necron and eldar players, like how we pick on etc etc etc.
It has gone way past 'banter'. People are unironically hateful of Tau. You can see here and in other threads regarding the new codex. But it's quite amusing to see some people almost frothing in anger about Tau stuff. It makes no sense... to become irate about non-real stuff.
DaPino wrote:
Also, Markerlights. feth markelights. They're the dumbest pieces of wargear any army has. It just gets rid of certain tactical elements entirely.
Vector Strike wrote: It has gone way past 'banter'. People are unironically hateful of Tau. You can see here and in other threads regarding the new codex. But it's quite amusing to see some people almost frothing in anger about Tau stuff. It makes no sense... to become irate about non-real stuff.
Tbh you see that in most new codex threads.
Tau are hated? God forbid the hate necrons got when they where re-released in 3rd..... *How great now we have terminators (from the films lol) in the game*
I personally think tau players can sometimes be like tau in the fluff. Over sensitive.
Jaxler wrote: Most of the arguments I see are either about tau being too noble bright, being animie inspired or about them being OP and annoying to play against. Most of which I feel aren't exactly grounded in realty or are based off older versions of the game or Tau lore. I'll admit I'm a little biased as a guy who plays tau and finds Japanese history interesting, but most of the stuff people complain about usually seems a little ignorant to me, especially when it's the same complaints I've seen be put out over and over without any facts or arguments to back it up. I also wish the people who complain about tau being "weebo trash" would realize that just because something takes inspiration from eastern culture doesn't mean it takes inspiration from eastern pop culture. Also, when people still call tau OP even after necrons space marines and eldar have gotten their new codexes It makes me roll my eyes a little. I really feel tau don't deserve the disproportionate amount of spite and loathing that they get.
My only complaint about playing Tau is that it is always the same fething game. Tau gunline in the back with 1-2 Riptides and 3 Missile Sides. Maybe some fire warrior bubble wrap and usually a deep striking crisis suit team with some melta/flamers to feth up anything I leave in the backfield. I have played 3 Tau players in 3 completely different geographic locations and the lists were almost identical.
So beyond that I don't understand the rest of it, I like the Idea behind Tau and I would love to see them more often but with different set ups. Also it would be nice if the Eldar hadn't stolen the whole JSJ from the Tau
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Ghazkuul wrote: Also it would be nice if the Eldar hadn't stolen the whole JSJ from the Tau
I have thought about that today. Why do Jetbikes have that assault move? They already have the farthest Run-like ability in the game. JSJ should be only for Jet Pack units.
Baldeagle91 wrote:
Tbh you see that in most new codex threads.
Tau are hated? God forbid the hate necrons got when they where re-released in 3rd..... *How great now we have terminators (from the films lol) in the game*
I personally think tau players can sometimes be like tau in the fluff. Over sensitive.
Some can be, as they fall for the haters' speech and go down a swirl of accusations between them. But if you learn to ignore those and only respond to the more civilized complainers, all is well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/10 00:24:09
I have thought about that today. Why do Jetbikes have that assault move? They already have the farthest Run-like ability in the game. JSJ should be only for Jet Pack units.
I agree, Battle Focus doesnt belong on Jetbikes. Yes this would suck for the DE Jetbikes, but hose should have a 4+ anyway.
TheCustomLime wrote: I don't know.. considering how they were depicted in DoW and all of the huge mecha suit that are available and coming out for Tau I would say the anime comparison is warranted.
And trust me pal. Once the new Codex hits I guarantee you the spirit of mid-6th ed will come alive again.
Just because you have mechs doesn't make it inherently inspired by anime. Honestly giant fighting robots is hardly only popular in japan. I will admit that them having mechs that fight might be inspired by Japanese culture, I'd like to point out that you'd hardly get away calling pacific rim or other stuff that clearly takes some level of inspiration from Japanese culture as anime.
Also, I'm fairly certain most of the armies that get updated will be called "op" compared to the ones that aren't updated. Tau aren't going to be nearly unique in this regard.
As a gundam fan i can't not see the resemblance.
Though it was just a resemblence until i watched double zeta.
Spoiler:
Pretty sure that looks allot like a twin linked plasma rifle.
Also apparently the original tau designer was a fan mecha anime. though we are just missing all the ccws that mobiles suits had as backup.
And none of this is a bad thing.
I'll eventually be making a gundam themed tau army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/10 00:34:17
Honestly most of the arguments about the Tau make little sense at all. I find them more interesting than some other factions, that's for certain. and they definitely aren't Communists, in fact they're probably the most Socialist faction there is.
That said, I must say I find the DOW version of them where they treat humans like second class citizens far more interesting than the version of them where they are the ultimate good guys.
That isn't because I want them to be bad guys, but because it adds more depth to them and draws an interesting comparison to 1930s/40s Germany, what with how everyone in their society thinks its all for the greater good of other nations, their superior weapons and infrastructure, etc...(a comparison which works well if you view the Imperium as being like Stalin's Russia.)
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/09/10 00:47:20
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: Yes. StarCraft came out years before the Tau were even released. Everyone knew at the time: Terrans = Space Marines, Zerg = Tyranids, Protoss = Eldar. It was pretty blatant, although Blizzard did plenty to distinguish their factions from their 40k counterparts. But Protoss absolutely, definitively, borrowed nothing from the Tau, because barring time travel it physically would not have been possible.
To the contrary, Games Workshop likely "borrowed" from Blizzard more than the other way around- when Starcraft came out Tyranids looked nothing like they do now, and it wasn't until years after Starcraft came out that the Tyranids aesthetic began to resemble what we see today.
Starcraft was originally supposed to be a WHFB game, which then became Starcraft. There's little to no evidence that Blizzard was ever taking inspiration from 40K, and if you think about it with the exception of the Zerg, the factions bear little resemblance. The only thing the Protoss and the Eldar had in common are their technology, and the only thing that Astartes and combat marines have in common is their power armor. Not much else.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/10 01:02:18
Gameplay wise the standard tau army is just boring, I'm sorry. It feels like "gaaar I'm gonna charge ya" all the time because that's the only option tau leave other factions. Every assault faction has guns. Every one has some variation in mobility, psychics, armor, etc. And every other shooty fAction uses mobility, or assault screens, or close range to some extent. Tau JUST sit and shoot.
It's like Decurion crons. It's iust boring, there's no way around it.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Signet-Powers wrote: Honestly most of the arguments about the Tau make little sense at all. I find them more interesting than some other factions, that's for certain. and they definitely aren't Communists, in fact they're probably the most Socialist faction there is.
That said, I must say I find the DOW version of them where they treat humans like second class citizens far more interesting than the version of them where they are the ultimate good guys.
That isn't because I want them to be bad guys, but because it adds more depth to them and draws an interesting comparison to 1930s/40s Germany, what with how everyone in their society thinks its all for the greater good of other nations, their superior weapons and infrastructure, etc...(a comparison which works well if you view the Imperium as being like Stalin's Russia.)
Think you need to re-read the communist manifesto.... socalism is the prerequisite to communism... thus kinda communism lite, you know as commie as capitalism can go. Also communism is suppose to be democratic.... just most examples in history and modern day have prime examples of dictators which also exist in democracies (where the term originates).
All in all they're still space commies
The Imperium is more of a massive and elongated feudal system. Actually the DOW still shows the Tau in a stalin like USSR (but remove stalin with a ruling elite, kinda like in china atm), especially seeing many ethnic minorities where most defiantly seen as second class citizens.
Hell even the Vespid so called communication devices have hints of mind control! Primitive troops being used for cc? Sounds a tad like Cossacks to me.
Weirdly enough the 30/40's stance of germany reminds me of how the imperium treats mutants.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/10 02:17:58
It is all automatic, cheap and they have a ton of it.
The best thing is Tau is no longer battle brothers with eldar and ICs cannot join MCs.
You know what else has those rules? Many units in the Imperium, as well as other xenos factions. Furthermore, Tau have to pay for their markerlights and interceptor/skyfire upgrades.
Tau do not have a monopoly on cheese.
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pumpinchimp wrote: I like Tau because they are the most Sci-Fi of the factions.
What do you mean by "most sci fi?" Maybe in a Star Trek space opera or Orweillian Dystopia sense. But if you like Jack Vance Dying Earth style techno-barbarism then Space Marines are most sci fi. Weird Tales Magazine classic 60s paperback pulp scifi? Reach for AdMech. More of a near future Enders game/Starship Troopers scifi fan? IG is the most sci fi. Star Wars space monks with hand wavey tech? Back to Marines. Heinlein robots and cyborgs mixed with some classic early 50s Death Rays and Doom Engines and Heat Beams? Necrons are most sci fi.
40k is a big big place. So is sci fi.
40k actually falls under the fantasy genre (science fantasy to be specific), not sci fi. (sci fi does not allow supernatural elements). That is also why the Tau stand out so much, as they are the only faction without supernatural themes.
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