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Made in ca
Lethal Lhamean





somewhere in the webway

All of these people latley talking about learning to play. Since those threads all got shut down before I could drop my 2 bits of left over marine sprue in, figured I would tailor a "generalized anti troll thread response"

First the problems with L2P.

It's a flawed argument. Your telling people that the armies they have are, essentially fine but the reason they lose to other armies is due to "user error" that implies that both armies can win. Or, that if both players have the same skill and tatical acumen should both win. However:

The nature of 40k is a you go i go system. I move my guys shoot and so on. Then essentially stand there and wait for you to counter me. "Tatics" in that kind of game don't really play. Especially when the rules in there current form are very much paper rock scissors lizard Spock. "Using cover" or trying to outflank, divide and conquer etc do not factor as heavy anymore. Since most things can either A; move quite fast, or B; have nice long range. And on a standard table size of 6x4 - your maneuvers are useless. Because SOMETHING from "way over their" can still see enough of the Badley painted whites of your eyes to pummel them.

Add in how main rules change on a regular basis and codex rules get updated and or improved on a quick pace - a new over all approach is needed. Learning to play is easy. Read the rules. Roll dice. But WINNING - that's the tricky part. Here is how to do it.

1: read up on the newest super shiney. Design list. (Or copy one from online leetwinnerz) - inventory what you have and don't have.
2: forget the last half of step 1. Everything needs new paint anyway.
3: go to local store. Select models chosen in step 1
4: place models on cash counter.
5: make a snarky comment about how this new army will be really fun and youve wanted to make one since AGES ago. Fling pen cap at nearby older gamer rolling his eyes at you. After all That kinda behavior is just rude.
6: provide plastic, finger print and deed to house to Gw inventory drone
7: go home.
8: lie to who ever else you live with about the actual cost. Mumble something about a sale or whatever or better yet just smuggle it in like old fashioned liquor bootlegger.
9: build, paint and ready for victory!
10: realize in the last few weeks that GW has released a NEWER awsome shiney that totally pwns what you have.
Go back to step 1 and Repeat as needed.

Instead of L2P -

LTP (learn to purchase)

I'm done.

Melevolence wrote:

On a side note: Your profile pic both makes me smile and terrified

 Savageconvoy wrote:
.. Crap your profile picture is disturbing....




 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

I lol'd
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

While we shouldn't circumvent closed Threads....
It really is the nature of the beast, isn't it?

8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Southern California, USA

Finally! Someone on DakkaDakka understands the GW hobby!

Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!  
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

I'm walking to the store right now to buy some Eldar! Woo me! I know how to play 40k!

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




How does this work for people already with an army, because I understand the meta working like that for new players.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Southern California, USA

Makumba wrote:
How does this work for people already with an army, because I understand the meta working like that for new players.


Mak I don't think you understand the GW hobby. If you already have that army you throw it in the trash and buy a whole new one. Think... What would Kirby do?

Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!  
   
Made in us
Monstrous Master Moulder




Rust belt

OP. Great post... It really sums up the pay to win attitude associated with GW games. There is way to much imbalance between factions to every tell a person "your BA can't beat my eldar you just need to learn to play."
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin






Too many words
   
Made in ca
Ghastly Grave Guard





Canada

Skyhammer was the ultimate embodiment of this so far as I have seen.

"Hey there, here's a ~$400 bundle of stuff you already have plus a couple of new re-hashed kits with not much different. They cost more though! HEH! Not enticed? We'll throw in a SUPER-DUPER new laminated dataslate for a ridiculously overpowered formation you can make with all this stuff! What's that? You already HAVE everything you'll need to field that formation? Well, just try playing it without a hardcopy of the dataslate! Oh, did we mention it's LIMITED EDITION?! There are only 400 in existence, so you'd better act fast! 399... 398... 397... BETTER HURRY!!!!11!!!ONE!!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/09 16:26:41


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think your anti-argument is flawed. While I agree that "Learn to Play" isn't a very conducive argument to help someone that's losing at the game during casual sessions, I think the way you've structured this anti-argument is also majorly flawed.

The problem is this sentence right here:

"Your telling people that the armies they have are, essentially fine but the reason they lose to other armies is due to "user error" that implies that both armies can win."

That's not correct at all. L2P -er's are telling you that if you want to win, you need to have the right mix of units and tactics. It just so happens that the "right" mix of units is often the newer shiny things - but not always! The Flyrant kit has been around for a long time; it is definitely no longer new or shiny. But it still works.

The real issue is that most of us just don't want to play that kind of 40k. I don't want to play against Flyrant-spam, or D-swathes, or summoning hordes; not all the time. But these lists are the tourney builds. Well, the game's about a LOT more than tourneys! If your group can't differentiate between tourney-lists and fun games, then you have a different kind of problem. That's a problem that both L2P and Learn to Pay won't solve.

The game is not about two camps; "the actual good lists" vs "everything else". Sure "the actual good lists" camp exists. I fully support the tourney scene and I love the idea of people matching their best versus their opponent's VERY BEST. But the game has many other camps too. The fluffy games, the kill-team games, the campaigns, the "let's try this new thing!" games, the impossible odds games, the epic apolypse games, the "I challonge you good sir!" games, and so on.

If you're not willing to discuss what kind of game you want, it'll be pretty rare to find a game you'll really enjoy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/09 16:32:24


 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





 Lord Corellia wrote:
Skyhammer was the ultimate embodiment of this so far as I have seen.

"Hey there, here's a ~$400 bundle of stuff you already have plus a couple of new re-hashed kits with not much different. They cost more though! HEH! Not enticed? We'll throw in a SUPER-DUPER new laminated dataslate for a ridiculously overpowered formation you can make with all this stuff! What's that? You already HAVE everything you'll need to field that formation? Well, just try playing it without a hardcopy of the dataslate! Oh, did we mention it's LIMITED EDITION?! There are only 400 in existence, so you'd better act fast! 399... 398... 397... BETTER HURRY!!!!11!!!ONE!!


Good think I have like 20 copy's of the original sky hammer dataslate and didn't have to pay a penny for it muhaha (yarr the life of a pirate be a good one)
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





Northern California

OP: have an exalt.

It reminds me of a BoLS clickbait article. Why complain about balance when you can just buy another army?

~3000 (Fully Painted)
Coming Soon!
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





The Rock

I honestly don't think it matters what you have in your army. The dice rolls can always feth you over lol.

AoV's Hobby Blog 29/04/18 The Tomb World stirs p44
How to take decent photos of your models
There's a beast in every man, and it stirs when you put a sword in his hand
Most importantly, Win or Lose, always try to have fun.
Armies Legion: Dark Angels 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

The game is not about two camps; "the actual good lists" vs "everything else". Sure "the actual good lists" camp exists. I fully support the tourney scene and I love the idea of people matching their best versus their opponent's VERY BEST. But the game has many other camps too. The fluffy games, the kill-team games, the campaigns, the "let's try this new thing!" games, the impossible odds games, the epic apolypse games, the "I challonge you good sir!" games, and so on.


The problem arises when someone from the "fluffy games" camp just so happens to play an army with a fluffy list that is also found in the "actually good lists" camp. The reason this problem arises is because GW suck at game design. Suck out loud.

A Tau gunline is perfectly fluffy. As is a CC army built around Khornate Berzerkers. Guess who's going to have a bad day in the game? Guess who is playing 40k on "hard mode" and who is on "easy mode"?

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in ca
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




 Psienesis wrote:
Guess who's going to have a bad day in the game? Guess who is playing 40k on "hard mode" and who is on "easy mode"?
People who can't get along with their opponent, mostly

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/09 16:51:08


 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Yoyoyo wrote:
 Psienesis wrote:
Guess who's going to have a bad day in the game? Guess who is playing 40k on "hard mode" and who is on "easy mode"?
People who can't get along with their opponent, mostly


Getting along with your opponent really doesn't help in that sort of situation.

Losing can be fun. Matches that are one-sided because of armies or lists, not so much.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Psienesis wrote:
The game is not about two camps; "the actual good lists" vs "everything else". Sure "the actual good lists" camp exists. I fully support the tourney scene and I love the idea of people matching their best versus their opponent's VERY BEST. But the game has many other camps too. The fluffy games, the kill-team games, the campaigns, the "let's try this new thing!" games, the impossible odds games, the epic apolypse games, the "I challonge you good sir!" games, and so on.


The problem arises when someone from the "fluffy games" camp just so happens to play an army with a fluffy list that is also found in the "actually good lists" camp. The reason this problem arises is because GW suck at game design. Suck out loud.

A Tau gunline is perfectly fluffy. As is a CC army built around Khornate Berzerkers. Guess who's going to have a bad day in the game? Guess who is playing 40k on "hard mode" and who is on "easy mode"?


Totally correct, but then the problem isn't "Learn to Pay" or "Learn to Play". Rather, the problem is just what you said; the sides aren't even because GW isn't designing a balanced even game. However, if the players hit this wall, its up to both of them to resolve it if either wants to continue playing the game. Another perfectly fluffy yet insanely strong list is the 5-Knights list, or a Siam-Hann list with Scatbikes and Hornets.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





Smells like the ocean in this thread..
   
Made in ca
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




 vipoid wrote:
Getting along with your opponent really doesn't help in that sort of situation.

Losing can be fun. Matches that are one-sided because of armies or lists, not so much.
When you set up the game, isn't "balance" one of the major points to check off with your opponent?
   
Made in ca
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler






QQ more

Ahriman + 1 TSons squad: Painting in progress. Will gift them to my bro at Xmas!
2000+ Tau: Painting in progress. http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-78163-46237_Tau%20Battelforce.html 
   
Made in ca
Executing Exarch






Cognitive dissonance everywhere.

You're fooling yourselves with defeatist attitudes as to why you don't suck, its okay its a natural defence mechanism to try and alleviate the burden of knowing how bad you are at something. Next come up with #NoobShaming and be offended every time someone tries to tell you to be better at something.

Yoyoyo wrote:
 Psienesis wrote:
Guess who's going to have a bad day in the game? Guess who is playing 40k on "hard mode" and who is on "easy mode"?
People who can't get along with their opponent, mostly


9 times out of 10 its the guy that brings the knife to the gun fight that isn't getting along with anyone because he wants everyone to coddle and cater to his special snowflake mentality. FAAC gamers are ten times worse then anyone who plays competitively, plus the added bonus is that competitive players know their rules and paint their models and don't boo boo stink face when they lose. Y'all Mofos got to check your delicate sensibilities at the door.

Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
 
   
Made in ca
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler






^ haha, that was funny ^

Really, anybody extreme (one way or the other) is annoying lol. There's maybe 2-5% of this forum that can ONLY play with WAAC people lol.

Ahriman + 1 TSons squad: Painting in progress. Will gift them to my bro at Xmas!
2000+ Tau: Painting in progress. http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-78163-46237_Tau%20Battelforce.html 
   
Made in us
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Hatfield, PA

 Lord Corellia wrote:
Skyhammer was the ultimate embodiment of this so far as I have seen.

"Hey there, here's a ~$400 bundle of stuff you already have plus a couple of new re-hashed kits with not much different. They cost more though! HEH! Not enticed? We'll throw in a SUPER-DUPER new laminated dataslate for a ridiculously overpowered formation you can make with all this stuff! What's that? You already HAVE everything you'll need to field that formation? Well, just try playing it without a hardcopy of the dataslate! Oh, did we mention it's LIMITED EDITION?! There are only 400 in existence, so you'd better act fast! 399... 398... 397... BETTER HURRY!!!!11!!!ONE!!


And GW's marketing strategy is summed up in one small paragraph.


CSM 6k points CSM 4k points
CSM 4.5k points CSM 3.5k points
and Daemons 4k points each
Renegades 4k points
SM 4k points
SM 2.5k Points
3K 2.3k
EW, MW and LW British in Flames of War 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

 Yarium wrote:
 Psienesis wrote:
The game is not about two camps; "the actual good lists" vs "everything else". Sure "the actual good lists" camp exists. I fully support the tourney scene and I love the idea of people matching their best versus their opponent's VERY BEST. But the game has many other camps too. The fluffy games, the kill-team games, the campaigns, the "let's try this new thing!" games, the impossible odds games, the epic apolypse games, the "I challonge you good sir!" games, and so on.


The problem arises when someone from the "fluffy games" camp just so happens to play an army with a fluffy list that is also found in the "actually good lists" camp. The reason this problem arises is because GW suck at game design. Suck out loud.

A Tau gunline is perfectly fluffy. As is a CC army built around Khornate Berzerkers. Guess who's going to have a bad day in the game? Guess who is playing 40k on "hard mode" and who is on "easy mode"?


Totally correct, but then the problem isn't "Learn to Pay" or "Learn to Play". Rather, the problem is just what you said; the sides aren't even because GW isn't designing a balanced even game. However, if the players hit this wall, its up to both of them to resolve it if either wants to continue playing the game. Another perfectly fluffy yet insanely strong list is the 5-Knights list, or a Siam-Hann list with Scatbikes and Hornets.


That's basically my point, but in this situation (and there are plenty of other builds one can use, the Tau Guns vs Khorne CC is just convenient and is, also, a handy reference for how fluff doesn't match rules at all sometimes) our CSM player could buy a Skullgrinder or Daemonkin or, you know, basically rebuild his army entirely, or the Tau player cuts his army value down by 25-50% so it ends up being, say, 500-750 vs 1k points... which is, again, poor game design. That one can houserule the game into a semblance of balance is all well and good for people who play the same opponents over and over again, but not so good for people who play pick-up games in stores, conventions or similar venues.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in ca
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




 Ravenous D wrote:
9 times out of 10 its the guy that brings the knife to the gun fight that isn't getting along with anyone because he wants everyone to coddle and cater to his special snowflake mentality.
Different side of the same coin my man. He's out of step with his opponent.

Here's the point: there's absolutely no reason you can't play older models, have fun, save money, be less whiny, and enjoy yourself more. Hell you can play older editions or alt formats like Kill Team.

Some of these cats don't consider that an option.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Southern California, USA

Yoyoyo wrote:
 Ravenous D wrote:
9 times out of 10 its the guy that brings the knife to the gun fight that isn't getting along with anyone because he wants everyone to coddle and cater to his special snowflake mentality.
Different side of the same coin my man. He's out of step with his opponent.

Here's the point: there's absolutely no reason you can't play older models, have fun, save money, be less whiny, and enjoy yourself more. Hell you can play older editions or alt formats like Kill Team.

Some of these cats don't consider that an option.


Not everyone has the same options, meta and experience you do. Not everyone has a circle of dedicated, veteran gamers willing to play older editions or kill team. Some people have a cut throat meta and won't enjoy themselves if they run a suboptimal Codex.

Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 DarthSpader wrote:
8: lie to who ever else you live with about the actual cost. Mumble something about a sale or whatever or better yet just smuggle it in like old fashioned liquor bootlegger.


Shhh. Now you're stepping over the line. Can we get this thread locked and this post edited?
   
Made in ca
Ghastly Grave Guard





Canada

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
 DarthSpader wrote:
8: lie to who ever else you live with about the actual cost. Mumble something about a sale or whatever or better yet just smuggle it in like old fashioned liquor bootlegger.


Shhh. Now you're stepping over the line. Can we get this thread locked and this post edited?


How so?? Many times my roommate has asked what I paid for something and the response I get after telling him is "oh, WOOOW that's a lot of money for that sort of thing." and when he tries launching into a lecture I firmly remind him that paying my half of the rent, bills, etc has never EVER been an issue.

So now I generally bring it into the house when he's not there or not paying attention. Or hidden in a bag with other stuff. Just to avoid the eye-roll and argument.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Psienesis wrote:
That's basically my point, but in this situation (and there are plenty of other builds one can use, the Tau Guns vs Khorne CC is just convenient and is, also, a handy reference for how fluff doesn't match rules at all sometimes) our CSM player could buy a Skullgrinder or Daemonkin or, you know, basically rebuild his army entirely, or the Tau player cuts his army value down by 25-50% so it ends up being, say, 500-750 vs 1k points... which is, again, poor game design. That one can houserule the game into a semblance of balance is all well and good for people who play the same opponents over and over again, but not so good for people who play pick-up games in stores, conventions or similar venues.


Quite true. It's been so long since I've done a basic walk in and get a game. I universally set up my games ahead of time either with friends, or through the league we put in place at our FLGS. The only reason I used to do the walk-in and game style was because the internet was pretty new back then, and I didn't even own a cell phone (though the ones that did exist were just flip-phones). My comments definitely don't make sense when two people just spontaneously show up for a game, because their expectations for a game could be very different, and there may be no way to accommodate both player's desires for the game. In this case, you could just be honest and upfront still. "Hey, my army is fluffy, but it's pretty strong. Scatbikes and Wriathknights and stuff. You okay with that?". It's not too hard to ask, and it's not too hard to say yes or no. I'd also suggest to such people creating a forum or facebook group where people can arrange games ahead of time for better communication!

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
 
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