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Made in us
Haughty Harad Serpent Rider





Richmond, VA

 Alex C wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
I'm mostly interested in the rules - could someone help me out and point me at (or briefly explain) what this "hub" thing is all about?

I'm hoping for a squad based game in 28mm rather than individual skirmish.


Basically you buy a unit in batches. Each of these batches has a "hub" that everything is measured from. The rest of the figures in a batch are irrelevant. You have to keep each hub in the unit within a certain distance of the other hubs in a unit and then arrange the rest of the models around the hubs. It's just a pain in the arse to be fiddling around like that when the aim of the game is to make streamlined mass battles a quick and easy thing to do. If they want a multibase game, make the whole bloody unit on a base, rather than this middle ground nonsense that just complicates things.

Sounds like they have an alternative in mind though. I hope it's more streamlined.


Unit based movement is excellent - the squad is a cloud and representative of the area they control; however, multiple sub units all in coherency make it way too fiddly.

"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke 
   
Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







 judgedoug wrote:

Unit based movement is excellent - the squad is a cloud and representative of the area they control; however, multiple sub units all in coherency make it way too fiddly.


It's not even that, the cloud does not project any control, it projects vulnerability as range and LOS is measured only from the hub but to any model.

The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins. 
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






I really, deeply, and truly do not like the Hub system.

Not even a little tiny bit.

The Auld Grump

Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
Made in us
Gargantuan Gargant





New Bedford, MA USA

Yeah, the hub concept kept me from even trying the Alpha rules with my gaming group.

They promised us plastic vehicles in this KS, so I'm backing in any case for the discounted models, but Warpath may just be another game rulebook that sits on my shelf unused if the hub is intergral. It's like the worst compromise between KoW and 40K.

   
Made in us
Sniping Reverend Moira





Cincinnati, Ohio

ArtIsGreat wrote:
Hope they drop the metal and go back to restic, or else all the whining I did was for nothing


Funny.

I was hoping they'd de-crappify the restic Rebs. I bought a significant amount of them based on the concept art and sculpts.

Those things were a gak sandwich.

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






If they make HIPS Rebs they might as well have a license to print money.

Seriously wondered why they weren't prioritised over Steel Warriors in the DZ2 KS.

"The Omnissiah is my Moderati" 
   
Made in us
Near Golden Daemon Caliber






Illinois

Doesn't Ronnie like dwarfs?

Nice, modular, hard plastic rebs would be swell. Not as sure how you'll get the mixed aliens vibe easily though. If they manage it in an effective manner... But we'll have to see.

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Have humanoid torsos with arms, legs, heads and tails for different aliens. Could have little plug peices to go in the torso sockets you don't end up using (tail, wings, extra arms, etc).

I'm sure a little thought into sculpt and sprue layout could make multi-aliens work.

"The Omnissiah is my Moderati" 
   
Made in us
Sniping Reverend Moira





Cincinnati, Ohio

They'd be better served doing what Wyrd does and making good looking single pose models.

Modularity is way overrated.

 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




 cincydooley wrote:
They'd be better served doing what Wyrd does and making good looking single pose models.

Modularity is way overrated.


Agreed 100%, would rather have one well posed miniature over modularity with poor poses. also a lot HIP plastic I feel is way overrated and really holds companies back from producing a larger range for their game products.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Nashville, TN

I just want more space dwarves. GIVE ME MOAR SPACE DWARVES!!!

Joe Smash. 
   
Made in us
Near Golden Daemon Caliber






Illinois

I like hard plastic but I'm not married to it, a lot of mono-pose sculpts are great, one piece or a body with an arm or gun to glue on etc.

Just depends on what you're using them for. Having a few squads with a mix of the same five guys would get boring eventually.

Still not sure if I'm sold on the human/alien rebs sprue, but it might work out and surprise me, or they may have an entirely different plan.

 
   
Made in us
Gargantuan Gargant





New Bedford, MA USA

Alliance makes mono pose models with 12 sculpts and 48 1/72 models per box for under $20. amd they're great.

Green Plastic Army men have been around forever, and come in multiple sculpt mono pose models and cost a fraction of what our wargaming miniatures do.

Why the heck hasn't anyone just stated making 28mm army men ?


   
Made in us
Major




In a van down by the river

 adamsouza wrote:
Alliance makes mono pose models with 12 sculpts and 48 1/72 models per box for under $20. amd they're great.

Green Plastic Army men have been around forever, and come in multiple sculpt mono pose models and cost a fraction of what our wargaming miniatures do.

Why the heck hasn't anyone just stated making 28mm army men ?


There's lots of factors that drive up the cost of wargaming models versus army men (beyond just "because they can" anyway).

Spoiler:

First off, you have a plastic (polyethylene) that is comparatively cheaper to work with on manufacturing but is much harder to deal with from the modelling end compared to HIPS. Plastic cement doesn't work on PE, and I'm not sure there's any glue that "works" well on it that can be easily worked with. I have not looked into the possibilities myself, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that getting PE to the same level of detail and clarity the market expects from HIPS would raise the price of manufacturing substantially. That the models are designed to be inexpensive as a priority, with little else given a look in, makes it pretty cheap to sculpt and tool them; there's no concern that the rifle is out of scale or that the uniform is cut wrong or the proportions are out of whack. Not having to adhere to fine details and thus not having to pay high-end sculptors and engineers to make them work makes green army men easier and cheaper to manufacture.

Second you have the scale of sales. Most wargaming products are sold in specialist stores, and it's difficult to convince most retailers to sell a full product line; few SKUs and less shelf space required are key factors for most retailers in any market after all. Army men have few SKUs from the same manufacturer and can be thrown nearly anywhere in the store so they're sold in thousands of stores. Even if every army man retailer only buys 3 units to sell, they probably still massively outstrip any wargaming product volume just because of the sheer number of retailers. Economies of scale thus drive that price lower. Wargaming in contrast can reach hundreds of SKUs in a mature game (GW, WMH, etc) and chew up an entire store aisle. It's hard for anything other than specialist stores to justify that retail space, so the mass-market stores typically don't even attempt it. Smaller markets equals higher cost.

Competition is a similar factor there. Green army men are not really copyright-able in a meaningful way, thus many manufacturers can compete which will continually drive ways of making the product cheaper for a competitive edge. However, if you want a Space Marine or an Enforcer or an Eisenkern Stormtrooper, you have to go to those respective companies. Similar to if you just want a touch-capable phone you have a huge variety of options in the market and price spectrum. As soon as you decide you want a Samsung Galaxy or an iPhone, your options and pricing bands become much more limited. You can see competition at work in wargaming with historicals where a similar "you can't copyright facts" environment exists. The need to stay even with the competition works to the consumers favor here while a lack of competition for a given specific good...doesn't. Pretty basic economics there.

Finally you have the market realities of wargaming: Not every unit in every army is a Space Marine. What I mean is that there are some units and factions that the designers and fans really want to include because they make the game interesting/cool/fun, but really are just never going to justify their manufacturing costs on their own for years, if ever. However, basing it solely on how many they sell means the price for those specialists would be astronomical compared to the general-use troops so nobody would buy them and it becomes a Catch-22 still. Not making them at all decreases unit and faction variety, which is less interesting for the players of your game which makes your sales suffer as people wander away. The answer generally chosen in the marketplace is to not make each kit in the range stand on its own, but rather to price across the entire range so that it is profitable; in other words make it so that the more popular kits essentially subsidize the less-popular ones. Eventually, some of your specialists/less-popular kits may begin to turn a profit because they're offered in a desirable medium, and that now increases the options elsewhere. Green army men don't have to prop up the sales of an alternate line.

The concept of "units" and "rules" are things that the designers of green army men are not beholden to, and thus don't factor into their equation at all. The rules are whatever you come up with, after all. It doesn't matter if their baggie has 5 bazookas in it, because there is no play-difference for the end-consumer. If you bought an Enforcer sprue that was all missile launchers though, that sprue may not be usable in WarPath, or may be less-usable than another sprue due to the rules. That's an artificial construct outside of the kit, but it influences the design of the models which in turn adds to the cost.

Taken all together, those factors combine to give us close to the price difference you see on the shelf. There's a few more minor factors at work there as well, likely including "because we can," just not to the degree that people suspect.


On the topic of the KickStarter, I'm ambivalent. I probably will back for Enforcers (since I pretty much have everything I need there), but the Alpha rules really soured me on the idea of going big. It reads like an awesome mass-battle ruleset for simulating company+ engagements; that is an area 40k struggles to do effectively, so I can see what they're going for with that. However, I don't like it for platoon level games. Maybe after feedback they've managed to find a decent compromise, but I'm not really holding out hope on that with how many other things Mantic has been trying to do in the interim. There's only so many things a person or company can do well simultaneously.
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






I look at that drop ship, and I see... ... ... A ship for PCs in a science fiction RPG!

A Free Trader for Traveller. A ship of unknown designation for Firefly - but small enough that PCs might start with one.

Something with a little bit of cargo space, and enough legs to take them from world to world.


The Auld Grump - a little too small to be a Modular Cutter?

Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
Made in us
Near Golden Daemon Caliber






Illinois

I'd have to see it with some boots on ground nearby. It looks a little too small to be something you'd fly around in firefly style. The cockpit probably only has a couple of seats and the troop bay likely doesn't have many amenities.

As a backup/personal vehicle though, I can buy it. Maybe that's the dropship that comes out of their somewhat larger freighter? Freighter wouldn't have to be huge either, the ship could be umbilical-docked/attached to the bottom without really being inside of it.

 
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






 GrimDork wrote:
I'd have to see it with some boots on ground nearby. It looks a little too small to be something you'd fly around in firefly style. The cockpit probably only has a couple of seats and the troop bay likely doesn't have many amenities.

As a backup/personal vehicle though, I can buy it. Maybe that's the dropship that comes out of their somewhat larger freighter? Freighter wouldn't have to be huge either, the ship could be umbilical-docked/attached to the bottom without really being inside of it.
I am actually picturing it more as a container vessel, with a single container rather than a proper hold. The 'big' freighter would be nothing more than a frame holding lots of containers, with a cockpit at one end, and engines at the other.... and the dropship doubles as the cockpit.

And given that Deadzone is built around the idea of container ships... I can see the vessel being exactly that.

The Auld Grump - in Traveller terms... it may be sized closer to a Scout than a Free Trader - but the players always seem to go for the Free Trader, if they can.

*EDIT* I wonder if there will ever be a Deadzone RPG?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/13 14:36:52


Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I'd be interested in a Deadzone RPG... Just saying. Prefer the Mantic universe over Games Workshop for some reason. I like the dropship, but not looking for anything above skirmish size. I'm not after a bucket of minis.
   
Made in au
Screaming Shining Spear





Adelaide, Australia

 Alex C wrote:
Have humanoid torsos with arms, legs, heads and tails for different aliens. Could have little plug peices to go in the torso sockets you don't end up using (tail, wings, extra arms, etc).

I'm sure a little thought into sculpt and sprue layout could make multi-aliens work.


Just wouldn't work, you'd end up with a collection of Star Trek aliens, all the same size with different bumps on the head. You need to have the different sized torsos to represent the humans, grogans, yndij, sorak and zees.

   
Made in us
Near Golden Daemon Caliber






Illinois

I'd like to see the multi-kit work but I just have trouble doing so.

I wonder if a more monopose with several sculpts of each wouldn't be the way to do it. Or you could buy a box of humans, soraks, zees, though that gets shelf intensive for retailers. I guess we'll see what they come up with.

 
   
Made in us
Experienced Saurus Scar-Veteran





California the Southern

I prefer smaller scale skirmish games (as they usually play quicker, when time is a seriously valuable resource) but I can see myself quickly escalating my pledge, especially if they really go to town sweetening the deal.

Don't ask me why, but I always felt when Mantic got around to doing Warpath it was going to be a very wild ride, lots of freebies, crazy deals, just tons of stuff to get everyone both gaming and talking about what a crazy deal it was out in the wild.

I hope that's what actually happens.

Kind of akin to what the first Kings of War & Deadzone campaigns were like (even the second if you went Lockdown)- a very huge pile of stuff at a very reasonable price.

Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/627383.page#7436324.html
Watch and listen to me ramble about these minis before ruining them with paint!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmCB2mWIxhYF8Q36d2Am_2A 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 NTRabbit wrote:
 Alex C wrote:
Have humanoid torsos with arms, legs, heads and tails for different aliens. Could have little plug peices to go in the torso sockets you don't end up using (tail, wings, extra arms, etc).

I'm sure a little thought into sculpt and sprue layout could make multi-aliens work.


Just wouldn't work, you'd end up with a collection of Star Trek aliens, all the same size with different bumps on the head. You need to have the different sized torsos to represent the humans, grogans, yndij, sorak and zees.


Yeah that's true.

I remain hopeful that they will find a way!

"The Omnissiah is my Moderati" 
   
Made in us
Thermo-Optical Tuareg





California

Well, that's why what they'd need to do is a sprue for each type of alien and have all of the weapon options available on said sprues, sort of like they did with the Peacekeepers. That way, if you wanted to go all Yndij or Zees, you totally could.

   
Made in au
Incorporating Wet-Blending






Australia

 Barzam wrote:
Well, that's why what they'd need to do is a sprue for each type of alien and have all of the weapon options available on said sprues, sort of like they did with the Peacekeepers. That way, if you wanted to go all Yndij or Zees, you totally could.

That's correct. You can add in some "rubber forehead alien" headswaps as freebies but if you're going to do it right, each body type needs its own sprue.

"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis 
   
Made in us
Near Golden Daemon Caliber






Illinois

While nobody likes Lego hands and they're have to be careful to avoid them... Seems like a sprue per alien and then a sci-fi weapon sprue in the box(as needed), to cap things off...could work.

Then we'd have a sci-fi weapons sprue, preferably available separately. What a desirable add-on.

 
   
Made in us
Experienced Saurus Scar-Veteran





California the Southern

A sci fi weapon sprue is something we've asked Mantic for it seems every time they make sci fi stuff.

Maybe with Warpath it will finally happen!

Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/627383.page#7436324.html
Watch and listen to me ramble about these minis before ruining them with paint!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmCB2mWIxhYF8Q36d2Am_2A 
   
Made in ca
Three Color Minimum






I could see that getting costly. To basically produce the whole range in a single KS. Not exactly against it but it would have to be really well planned.How many reb races are there anyway?

In any case I would still want a weapon sprue of some kind.

The Peacekeeper concept art is really cool!
Sadly I'm not going to be able to go big this time around. The book and a few plastic kits for sure though.

   
Made in us
Near Golden Daemon Caliber






Illinois

I mean look at Kings of war 1 and 2. They didn't make everything for the range in one kickstarter, just as much as people were interested in funding. They've already got hp infantry for two factions and restic elites through deadzone. So its not like they're going completely from scratch, though we still won't see all everything finished in one campaign.

 
   
Made in ca
Three Color Minimum






 GrimDork wrote:
I mean look at Kings of war 1 and 2. They didn't make everything for the range in one kickstarter, just as much as people were interested in funding. They've already got hp infantry for two factions and restic elites through deadzone. So its not like they're going completely from scratch, though we still won't see all everything finished in one campaign.


The FF and Enforcers only really need vehicles I think. Some factions are closer to complete for WP than others and for me Rebs are pretty far down that list. I'd Imagine/hope that they will be characters or slot in specialists like we've seen in the Alpha with the enforcers.

I wonder how the DZ asterian troops will fit in too what we've seen of the Asterians.

   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight





Central Cimmeria

 lord_blackfang wrote:
 judgedoug wrote:

Unit based movement is excellent - the squad is a cloud and representative of the area they control; however, multiple sub units all in coherency make it way too fiddly.


It's not even that, the cloud does not project any control, it projects vulnerability as range and LOS is measured only from the hub but to any model.


I think the idea of a single hub per unit makes a lot of sense and can really simplify all the problems around "3 of six guys in this squad can see 4 in the enemy squad but of those four 2 are in heavy cover, etc., etc." headaches that just slow a game down. The hub represents control and possible fire lanes, the spokes/cloudlings represent vulnerability. It makes a lot of sense to me.

I haven't read the rules, so I may be imposing my perfect vision of a hub system on a game that actually has to specify the details, but I think the idea itself has merit.
   
 
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