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 Polonius wrote:

I forgot about the feared Fzorgle!

that book had maybe four good units, but they were really good. Two lash princes, a greater daemon, MSU plague marines, and nine oblits. Add suicide termies to taste, and enjoy!

I played this exact same list, minus the Greater Daemon and with Lash Sorcerers instead, and a Rhino with some Berzerkers in it for crowd control. It was the most unsportsmanlike list I've ever run due to the ability to move your opponent's models - move them into charge range, bunch them up for plasma cannon shots, pull them forward to doubletap them with plasma guns then push them back with the other Lash.

It was a barrel of laughs. If Lash came back to the current meta, it alone could make CSM far more playable. It would synergize like crazy with Spawn Rush.

Crimson Heretic wrote:
Thank you for the replies, I got into csm initially back in the beginning of 6th and a complete 40k virgin. dumped them for other armys and after cutting my teeth i came back(i like the figs/fluff alot). I went with the khorne demonkin thinking hey you know it might make chaos decent, not saying its a bad codex but damn do i miss little things like havoks and chosen. I play in a 100% friendly not cut throat enviroment, so i'm juggling the idea of getting the normal CSM codex to quinch my thirst until they release a new codex? yay or nay?

I'd say wait for the new Codex and save your money for that. It's not too far away.

Daemonkin is a great army, and one of the more balanced codices out there. It has won a few bigger tournaments, so it can be done. Especially with some CSM allies they start to shine.

Back in early 3rd edition, the Iron Warriors list in White Dwarf with the basilisk was very powerful. Oh, how I hated my brother's basilisk.

 Jimsolo wrote:
3rd edition, they were pretty awesome.

The best codex gw ever made. Very detailed legions. The subsequent codex was a shame.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Just face it GW will never make csm good bet our next codex makes us weaker than sisters

you know very little if you think sisters of battle are weak.

here's a hint; they aren't

CSM was really top tier in 2nd edition, even considering Eldar.

No one I knew ever seemed to have an answer for a demon-bomb list with a tricked out Chaos Lord. It was just too easy to load up part of the board with an army twice the size of the one you started with.

You might double your army size over the course of the game, but you still paid points for those daemons, so you deployed considerably less points to begin with. Not that exciting.

It was one of the 3 most powerful builds in its time.
Rhino rush, star cannon spam, siren bomb.

I think it was more that you could summon without mishap once you got the summoner across the board. That and greater demons were what, 100 points? They were absurd for their cost.

Crimson Heretic wrote:
Was CSM ever top tier?

Yes

Akiasura wrote:
It was one of the 3 most powerful builds in its time.
Rhino rush, star cannon spam, siren bomb.

I think it was more that you could summon without mishap once you got the summoner across the board. That and greater demons were what, 100 points? They were absurd for their cost.

Greater daemons used to eat a champion so that was reflected in the cost.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
It was one of the 3 most powerful builds in its time.
Rhino rush, star cannon spam, siren bomb.

I think it was more that you could summon without mishap once you got the summoner across the board. That and greater demons were what, 100 points? They were absurd for their cost.

Greater daemons used to eat a champion so that was reflected in the cost.

Yes and no. They still cost less than a lot of the more combat based characters, including the champion, at the time and were pretty much unstoppable. They also arrived into combat pretty safely, often by turn 2 (which back then was unheard of).

The demon bomb was really insane. You lost in the first two turns of the game, or you won by a mile.

GD's where 100 pts, in the 4th Ed dex, where there was NO God specific deamons for a time before the first Deamon codex went out.

In 3.5 Bloodthirsters where 205pts and the others where between 180 and 200.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
GD's where 100 pts, in the 4th Ed dex, where there was NO God specific deamons for a time before the first Deamon codex went out.

In 3.5 Bloodthirsters where 205pts and the others where between 180 and 200.

Yeah, I ran a Keeper of Secrets a few times. You needed a champ to host. You paid the extra 20 points for demonic chains to help get him in or keep him out as well. The GDs were spendy, but worth it. Also your DPs got expensive too. Lord + several demonic gifts + special weapons all added up. My Slannesh DP was 183 points. Which back in 3rd - 4th edition was actually really high for most single models. He was worth his points though. So much fun to field, and never once called for cheese because he still sported a 3+ armor save and only a 5+ inv save. He seemed killable, but with proper allocation of HTH placement and tactics (something I've found missing ever since 5th ed), he turned out to be very hard to actually kill.

So let me ask you guys/gals this, were the supplement codexs worth a damn? did they really bring any polish to the 6th edition codex or were they basically glitter for a giant terd?

Crimson Heretic wrote:
So let me ask you guys/gals this, were the supplement codexs worth a damn? did they really bring any polish to the 6th edition codex or were they basically glitter for a giant terd?

I've said it many times before and I'll say it again; the 6th edition codex did what it needed to do quite well. With the mass removal of ALL the daemonic units, we had upwards of 11+ units removed from our codex!! Even in the 3.5 edition book, the actual Chaos Marine half was pretty bare bones. This was only made blaitantly obvious in the 4th ed codex.
Hence, our 6th edition codex desperately needed to focus exclusively on giving us new units to flesh out our FOC.

The huge problems the actual Chaos Marine parts have, comes down purely to how old and full of gapping wide chasms our model line is!! Unlike everyone else, we've been left to rot model wise. We haven't had a single new/returned weapon option to our armoury in over 15 ****ing years! While everyone else for example is getting new model kits with add-ons like Grav guns/Heavy flamers/high rate of fire heavy weapon of choice, we're still stuck with Flamer/Melta/Plasma for specials, and the incredibly lacking Heavy B/Missile launcher/Autocannon/Lascannon for heavy options...

We. Need. New. Troop. Kits!!!

Our current book would honestly shoot up in power to equal the 7th ed books if we could just get a series of kits for our basic Marines & Terminators that actually gave us ALL their actual options!
Instead, Chaos Marine players have to shell out to bitz sites or buy 3-4x the actual kits just to field something half-way decent!



As for the supplements, personally I really enjoyed them. The extra background was great, and while the Black Legions rules make an already overcosted codex even more overcosted, it's still a fluffy & fun feel to army. (if only Chosen were anything close to Sternguard, or even DA Company Vets...)

The Crimson Slaughter codex has some amazing relics, and is the way to field a super fluffy Word Bearers army, as you get Possessed as Troops!

I've always said that there needed to be two chaos marine books. One for Chaos Legions and one for Chaos Renegades.

You could have a book, which contains units from the original legions. So it's very organised (either by nature, such as Black Legion, Iron Warriors or Word Bearers) or by necessity (such as the mono God legions, or the Night Warriors being a fast attack force). Using ancient legion weaponry that cause normal marines to poo their environmental suits. There would be daemon troops, and each marine would be a chosen. And they would use ten thousand years of slaves and cultists.

Then there would be a Chaos Renegade book. Which would contain recently converted troops. They might be more rag tag, and still be named after their original units (chaos tactical marines, chaos centurions) and would have more modern day weaponry. Less daemon allies and fewer cultist, basically marines gone bad.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Then there would be a Chaos Renegade book. Which would contain recently converted troops. They might be more rag tag, and still be named after their original units (chaos tactical marines, chaos centurions) and would have more modern day weaponry. Less daemon allies and fewer cultist, basically marines gone bad.

I kind of agree, but couldn't you get that with a simple chapter tactics? Just let them use Codex: Space Marines, but swap ATSKNF for a rule showing they are renegades?

 Polonius wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Then there would be a Chaos Renegade book. Which would contain recently converted troops. They might be more rag tag, and still be named after their original units (chaos tactical marines, chaos centurions) and would have more modern day weaponry. Less daemon allies and fewer cultist, basically marines gone bad.

I kind of agree, but couldn't you get that with a simple chapter tactics? Just let them use Codex: Space Marines, but swap ATSKNF for a rule showing they are renegades?

You could indeed. But I think there would be enough differences to justify the additional changes. Like chaos marks and a few new units.

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Then there would be a Chaos Renegade book. Which would contain recently converted troops. They might be more rag tag, and still be named after their original units (chaos tactical marines, chaos centurions) and would have more modern day weaponry. Less daemon allies and fewer cultist, basically marines gone bad.

I kind of agree, but couldn't you get that with a simple chapter tactics? Just let them use Codex: Space Marines, but swap ATSKNF for a rule showing they are renegades?

You could indeed. But I think there would be enough differences to justify the additional changes. Like chaos marks and a few new units.

sure, I guess the problem is that while the forces of chaos are far more varied than those of the imperium, they share a single book while there are five full sized books for the Astartes alone.

If you throw everything possible into the pot, you run into the problem of having a huge, sprawling codex full of options, that's both far deeper and far more breakable than any other book (hey there, 3.5 Chaos Codex!) If you try to feature one or two angles, you end up with very cardboard thin books (Hey, 3.0 and 4th edition codices).

To really show the world, you should probably have four chaos books: Daemons, Legions, Renegades, Lost & the Damned.

 Polonius wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Then there would be a Chaos Renegade book. Which would contain recently converted troops. They might be more rag tag, and still be named after their original units (chaos tactical marines, chaos centurions) and would have more modern day weaponry. Less daemon allies and fewer cultist, basically marines gone bad.

I kind of agree, but couldn't you get that with a simple chapter tactics? Just let them use Codex: Space Marines, but swap ATSKNF for a rule showing they are renegades?

You could indeed. But I think there would be enough differences to justify the additional changes. Like chaos marks and a few new units.

sure, I guess the problem is that while the forces of chaos are far more varied than those of the imperium, they share a single book while there are five full sized books for the Astartes alone.

If you throw everything possible into the pot, you run into the problem of having a huge, sprawling codex full of options, that's both far deeper and far more breakable than any other book (hey there, 3.5 Chaos Codex!) If you try to feature one or two angles, you end up with very cardboard thin books (Hey, 3.0 and 4th edition codices).

To really show the world, you should probably have four chaos books: Daemons, Legions, Renegades, Lost & the Damned.

Well there are three, IA13 is lost and the damned.

Just send all the chaos to forgeworld, they do a good job with them.