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As above, which units would you say qualify as Monstrous Creatures and why? I thought I'd ask after Forge World have rather oddly, classified the Ta'unar Supremacy suit as a GMC..

Definitely not Riptides. Or that new fething Tau LoW battlesuit from Forgeworld.

Tau MCs as they're bigger suits. If they're walkers then so should all Tau suits be and Space Marines

Soul grinder, because it's not really a vehicle, it is a daemon for a big part.
EDIT: I mean, it should be. Is that what you want ? We say which unit we think should be MC or just which MC deserve it ?

Soul Grinder and Defiler should both be GC's. Especially the Soul Grinder, the Defiler is debatable, but considering its a daemon spirit trapped in a mechanical body, I think that would qualify more as a 'creature' than a 'vehicle'. Also considering that things like battlesuits, the various admech mechanical robot things, etc. are all classified as creatures, rather than vehicles, etc.

Soul Grinders should be GC but Defilers should be SHW

Tyranids, obviously. Daemons too.

Wraith units from Eldar and Coven creations from DE.

Everything else should be Walkers.

Only if it's a CREATURE. Which means, if it has actually been BORN or SPAWNED in this form. Squiggoths, Demon Princes, all things Tyranid. Definitely not some huge ass battle suit piloted by a little dude, this is not a CREATURE. Also not a wraithbone contruct driven by a dead soul encased in a gem or whatevers.

So how is a Space Marine not a vehicle when they're in a suit?

Oh yeah, forgot about Squiggoths. They're so bad lol

SGTPozy wrote:
So how is a Space Marine not a vehicle when they're in a suit?

A space marine has a suit alright, but Tau suits are actually exoskeletons, not suits. Think of the space marine suit as a more powerful equivalent of a Kevlar body armor. That's something that you wear but you are the one doing the movement and it is moving along with you. An exoskeleton on the other hand has its own motors/jetpacks etc so it moves itself. You may be giving the orders, but it is the one moving and you are following along.

I think that's the difference you are looking for.

SGTPozy wrote:
So how is a Space Marine not a vehicle when they're in a suit?

Dreadnoughts exist.

So, by that logic, I could claim my Sentinels could qualify as Monstrous Creatures?

In my opinion, something should qualify as a MC/GC if it's got one body, one consciousness operating it.

If it's a pilot (or crew) inside a mechanical suit (2+ bodies - the suit and the pilot/crew), than it should be a walker. It's not any different than any other vehicle - a machine operated by a pilot or crew.

So, a carnifex, has one consciousness (if you don't count the hive mind) and one body.

Wraithstuff also have one consciousness (a dead eldar) piloting one body. That makes sense for a MC/GC to me.

By that definition, I'd probably support soul grinders, and perhaps even defilers as a MC.

Things like deff dreads and dreadnoughts almost straddle the line. There is a pilot inside, but the pilot cannot use his body - it's been wired or crippled to the point where the organic body is unusable, so it completely relies on its mechanical body.

Things like riptides, new tau superheavy, or the suppression suit make zero sense as a MC/GC. They're mechanical suits operated by pilots who can easily get in and out, just like any other vehicle.

Hell, I'd be amazed if that FW suit doesn't have several pilots in it like voltron. It's about as much a GC as a stompa is a GC - both are robotic bodies operated by a crew.

But making big tau battlesuits walkers might make them reasonably balanced and potentially defeatable, so that certainly can't be allowed.

The Ta'unar has x3 Earth Caste pilots inside IIRC.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
So how is a Space Marine not a vehicle when they're in a suit?

A space marine has a suit alright, but Tau suits are actually exoskeletons, not suits. Think of the space marine suit as a more powerful equivalent of a Kevlar body armor. That's something that you wear but you are the one doing the movement and it is moving along with you. An exoskeleton on the other hand has its own motors/jetpacks etc so it moves itself. You may be giving the orders, but it is the one moving and you are following along.

I think that's the difference you are looking for.

Space Marines wear power armor. Power armor is an exoskeleton, it has hydraulics, servos etc. to facilitate movement and enhance the marines stregnth. Try again.

chaos0xomega wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
So how is a Space Marine not a vehicle when they're in a suit?

A space marine has a suit alright, but Tau suits are actually exoskeletons, not suits. Think of the space marine suit as a more powerful equivalent of a Kevlar body armor. That's something that you wear but you are the one doing the movement and it is moving along with you. An exoskeleton on the other hand has its own motors/jetpacks etc so it moves itself. You may be giving the orders, but it is the one moving and you are following along.

I think that's the difference you are looking for.

Space Marines wear power armor. Power armor is an exoskeleton, it has hydraulics, servos etc. to facilitate movement and enhance the marines stregnth. Try again.

So anyone wearing power armor, Terminator armor, etc. should be statted as a vehicle?

chaos0xomega wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
So how is a Space Marine not a vehicle when they're in a suit?

A space marine has a suit alright, but Tau suits are actually exoskeletons, not suits. Think of the space marine suit as a more powerful equivalent of a Kevlar body armor. That's something that you wear but you are the one doing the movement and it is moving along with you. An exoskeleton on the other hand has its own motors/jetpacks etc so it moves itself. You may be giving the orders, but it is the one moving and you are following along.

I think that's the difference you are looking for.

Space Marines wear power armor. Power armor is an exoskeleton, it has hydraulics, servos etc. to facilitate movement and enhance the marines stregnth. Try again.

It does. But it does not have go/stop pedals, the marine inside actuall has to move his leg forward if he wants to go forward. He has to raise his arms if he wants to raise his weapon and shoot. The marine is not driving the power armor, to make it simpler. He moves and the armor makes it easier and stronger to do so. With tau battle suits this is a different thing altogether. The tau inside is not actively moving the suit, it is piloting it. Can you understand the difference now?

Actually, it's a bit more complicated than that. It's not a couple of joy sticks or something in tau suits, it's a complete neural link. They "become" moving it as if they were moving their bodies, and even feeling pain if the suit it damaged. A crisis suit being a creature definitely makes sense. Riptides are a bit iffy, but was made a MC because, quite frankly, walkers are gak. This new suit is probably an expansion on that theme, although it could have really been either. Personally, I think that it being GMC instead of a SHW isn't really that big of a deal, it just has to be balanced correctly.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
As above, which units would you say qualify as Monstrous Creatures and why? I thought I'd ask after Forge World have rather oddly, classified the Ta'unar Supremacy suit as a GMC..

Gazkhull Thraka needs to be an MC that can be attached to squads, and fit in a transport.
He's bigger than a Dreadnought in fluff.

So... what about a Penitent Engine, which is a fast-moving metal monstrosity that isn't really even piloted by the poor schmuck strapped to it?

 Melissia wrote:
So... what about a Penitent Engine, which is a fast-moving metal monstrosity that isn't really even piloted by the poor schmuck strapped to it?

Then maybe we can make it like this: If it bleeds (anything, from acid to goo) then it has wounds and it can get wounded ergo it's a MC. If it has engine parts and metal and cannot be wounded but instead it can break down, then it's a Walker/Vehicle. How about that?

I think that's looking at it backwards. A Riptide should be considered a Walker, not a creature. I don't care that it's got a pilot wired into it, so does an Imperial Titan. It's a non-biological machine with mechanical and electronic components that enable its functions.

There's really nothing to justify it being considered a Creature over a Walker.

IMHO Ghagahzul should be a MC or even a GMC that's still able to join units.

chaos0xomega wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
So how is a Space Marine not a vehicle when they're in a suit?

A space marine has a suit alright, but Tau suits are actually exoskeletons, not suits. Think of the space marine suit as a more powerful equivalent of a Kevlar body armor. That's something that you wear but you are the one doing the movement and it is moving along with you. An exoskeleton on the other hand has its own motors/jetpacks etc so it moves itself. You may be giving the orders, but it is the one moving and you are following along.

I think that's the difference you are looking for.

Space Marines wear power armor. Power armor is an exoskeleton, it has hydraulics, servos etc. to facilitate movement and enhance the marines stregnth. Try again.

Power armor is fancy body armor. Tau battlesuits are mechs piloted by the Tau inside. Try again.

Personally, I'd just do away with the walker designation and make all walking big things monstrous creatures.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
So how is a Space Marine not a vehicle when they're in a suit?

A space marine has a suit alright, but Tau suits are actually exoskeletons, not suits. Think of the space marine suit as a more powerful equivalent of a Kevlar body armor. That's something that you wear but you are the one doing the movement and it is moving along with you. An exoskeleton on the other hand has its own motors/jetpacks etc so it moves itself. You may be giving the orders, but it is the one moving and you are following along.

I think that's the difference you are looking for.

Space Marines wear power armor. Power armor is an exoskeleton, it has hydraulics, servos etc. to facilitate movement and enhance the marines stregnth. Try again.

It does. But it does not have go/stop pedals, the marine inside actuall has to move his leg forward if he wants to go forward. He has to raise his arms if he wants to raise his weapon and shoot. The marine is not driving the power armor, to make it simpler. He moves and the armor makes it easier and stronger to do so. With tau battle suits this is a different thing altogether. The tau inside is not actively moving the suit, it is piloting it. Can you understand the difference now?

Power armor is fancy body armor. Tau battlesuits are mechs piloted by the Tau inside. Try again.

If what you said was accurate, yes. What you're missing is that its a neural link to the suits. He's not sitting in a gundam cockpit pushing joysticks and pedals, hes interfaced into the suit controlling it with his mind. The "pilot" of the suit might or might (ala pacific rim) be moving along with the suit, or could simply be thinking of himself as moving, and those thoughts are translated to the suits movements while he remains stationary, but either way, tau suits have more in common with marine power armor, than they do with an IG sentinel.

What does the method of piloting the vehicle have to do with having a T characteristic versus AV? Also, Nobles pilot Imperial Knights through neural interface but they are classified as walkers. So that's not even the way GW makes the distinction.

The point I'm trying to make (and I think others) is that the categorization isn't really consistent, nor does it seem to be based on any real amount of fluff consideration.

I can agree with just ditching the Walker designation at this point, as its considered a nerf. So lets just put everyone on the same field.

To me it seems like it is about how they move in a way. Things classified as creatures tend to have more fluid movement compared to things classified as vehicles.

chaos0xomega wrote:
The point I'm trying to make (and I think others) is that the categorization isn't really consistent, nor does it seem to be based on any real amount of fluff consideration.

Nope, it's just based off how many dollies GW wants to sell. They made the Riptide a MC because a walker designation would've made it a poorer unit and thus less models sold.