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Saw this on reddit and thought it was interesting: https://www.reddit.com/r/ageofsigmar/comments/3ls8m1/skaven_run_and_retreat/ and https://www.reddit.com/r/ageofsigmar/comments/3e4n7g/retreating_and_running/

Per the short rules, I'm not seeing any restriction on running while retreating.

Here are the relevant rules - there's not much else on the subject:

Units starting the movement phase within 3" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or retreat. If you choose to retreat, the unit must end its move more than 3" away from all enemy units. If a unit retreats, then it can’t shoot or charge later that turn (see below).
RUNNING
When you pick a unit to move in the movement phase, you can declare that it will run. Roll a dice and add the result to the Move characteristic of all models in the unit for the movement phase. A unit that runs can’t shoot or charge later that turn.

Then the question is, assuming a unit can both run and retreat in the same turn, can clan rats (or similar) get +4" to their total distance moved:

Bell Chimers
Models in this unit may be Bell Chimers. If the unit includes any Bell Chimers, it can move an extra 2" whenever it runs or retreats.

I don't love that phrasing, I could see it argued as +2" or +4" pretty convincingly. It looks written as though the author assumed the two actions were mutually exclusive, to be honest.

In games so far I have been playing you can run out of a retreat. In this instance I would guess the skaven get a +4 in total. Seems nice and cowardly for them :-)

I'd say just 2", because you don't run AND retreat - your retreat move IS running.

Does declaring that a unit will Run break the rule that says units within 3" can only remain Stationary or Retreat? I've always read it to be so, but I can see that you could allow a Running Retreat if this is still a Retreat.

There a nice symmetry to it: Run and Running Retreat move the same distance; one gets you out of the 3" bubble; the other denies entry; neither allow shoot or charge later in the turn.

I'd be happy to play it that way, but I can't help but think the intention is that Retreat is supposed to be an orderly disengagement from the enemy, not a helter skelter gtfo of here...

PS. The initial caps to Run etc are not supposed to imply any important meaning; it's just to distinguish them in the text.

I'm conflicted on this.

A strict reading of the rules seems to indicate that you really only have three options in the Movement phase...

1. Remain Stationary
2. Move (up to X" where X is your Move stat)
3. Run (up to X+D6" where X is your Move stat)

Retreat is never quite defined in terms of how you physically move your model. The only requirement is that with a retreat, you start within 3" of enemy models and end at least 3" away from all enemy models. As such, either a regular Move or a Run could be considered a Retreat.

The reason I'm conflicted is that there is no reason you'd ever choose not to Run as your Retreat. Running prevents Shooting or Charging... which you already lose by Retreating. There is no disadvantage. Strict RaW then, is that you can (and probably should) always Run when you Retreat.

I had just assumed Retreat was a move up to your Move stat in inches sort of thing, but that's not actually in the rules. I guess it makes sense that you'd probably Run away from a fight and not simply Move.

I guess the technical argument for running retreats would be that the Retreat rule doesn't give you an indication at all of how far a model can or must move while retreating, only that it must wind up more than 3" away from an enemy model. I know it's hyper technical, but there's nothing in the Retreat rule itself that tells you to look at a model's movement characteristic and use that to determine the distance it should go. For that reason, your only information about the distance it can move would be the "Moving" rule a few paragraphs before, and that rule permits you to Run.

Under this interpretation, which I'm inclined to think is RAW, the Retreat rule would be better phrased as "If you start the movement phase within 3" of an enemy, you cannot Move unless you end your movement phase more than 3" away from an enemy."

regarding skaven, the bell chimer ability states:

Models in this unit may be Bell Chimers. If the unit includes any Bell Chimers, it can move an extra 2" whenever it runs or retreats.

I have taken this to mean that a clanrat can run M+D6+2".If this was just M+2 then the unit wouldn't be running, would it? To run a unit needs to move M+D6 and therefore, clanrats would get +2 to this.

Or am I just being silly? I'm currently a Skave player (for now! working on a VC force) so clarity would be appreciated.

Regarding running and retreating, we always play with the option that you can run from battle. clanrats can therefore, by the logic above, retreat M+D6+2.

lare2 wrote:
regarding skaven, the bell chimer ability states:

Models in this unit may be Bell Chimers. If the unit includes any Bell Chimers, it can move an extra 2" whenever it runs or retreats.

I have taken this to mean that a clanrat can run M+D6+2".If this was just M+2 then the unit wouldn't be running, would it? To run a unit needs to move M+D6 and therefore, clanrats would get +2 to this.

Or am I just being silly? I'm currently a Skave player (for now! working on a VC force) so clarity would be appreciated.

I think everyone agrees that a non-retreating run move is at least M+D6+2" - the question is whether or not it's M+D6+4" when they are running and retreating at the same time (assuming it's legal to run while retreating, but I think it appears so under a strict reading of the rules).

 coelomate wrote:

lare2 wrote:
regarding skaven, the bell chimer ability states:

Models in this unit may be Bell Chimers. If the unit includes any Bell Chimers, it can move an extra 2" whenever it runs or retreats.

I have taken this to mean that a clanrat can run M+D6+2".If this was just M+2 then the unit wouldn't be running, would it? To run a unit needs to move M+D6 and therefore, clanrats would get +2 to this.

Or am I just being silly? I'm currently a Skave player (for now! working on a VC force) so clarity would be appreciated.

I think everyone agrees that a non-retreating run move is at least M+D6+2" - the question is whether or not it's M+D6+4" when they are running and retreating at the same time (assuming it's legal to run while retreating, but I think it appears so under a strict reading of the rules).

Strictly speaking, there is permission to move an extra 2" when the unit runs OR retreats. There is no permission to move any additional distance when the unit runs AND retreats.

HIWPI... I just can't imagine that GW intended for us to allow a unit to get the extra 2" twice at the same time. If an opponent says he gets +4", I'll challenge. If need be I'd invoke a roll off. I'm also not convinced that running while retreating is the intention either, but RaW appears to support it.

 coelomate wrote:

lare2 wrote:
regarding skaven, the bell chimer ability states:

Models in this unit may be Bell Chimers. If the unit includes any Bell Chimers, it can move an extra 2" whenever it runs or retreats.

I have taken this to mean that a clanrat can run M+D6+2".If this was just M+2 then the unit wouldn't be running, would it? To run a unit needs to move M+D6 and therefore, clanrats would get +2 to this.

Or am I just being silly? I'm currently a Skave player (for now! working on a VC force) so clarity would be appreciated.

I think everyone agrees that a non-retreating run move is at least M+D6+2" - the question is whether or not it's M+D6+4" when they are running and retreating at the same time (assuming it's legal to run while retreating, but I think it appears so under a strict reading of the rules).

nice! thanks for clearing this up for me! i was just being silly... phew!

 Kriswall wrote:
I'm conflicted on this.

A strict reading of the rules seems to indicate that you really only have three options in the Movement phase...

1. Remain Stationary
2. Move (up to X" where X is your Move stat)
3. Run (up to X+D6" where X is your Move stat)

Retreat is never quite defined in terms of how you physically move your model. The only requirement is that with a retreat, you start within 3" of enemy models and end at least 3" away from all enemy models. As such, either a regular Move or a Run could be considered a Retreat.

The reason I'm conflicted is that there is no reason you'd ever choose not to Run as your Retreat. Running prevents Shooting or Charging... which you already lose by Retreating. There is no disadvantage. Strict RaW then, is that you can (and probably should) always Run when you Retreat.

I had just assumed Retreat was a move up to your Move stat in inches sort of thing, but that's not actually in the rules. I guess it makes sense that you'd probably Run away from a fight and not simply Move.

In the case of Skaven Clanrats, their is a reason you'd retreat but not run. Their banner allows them to retreat and charge in the same turn, but not run and charge in the same turn.

 Kriswall wrote:

 coelomate wrote:

lare2 wrote:
regarding skaven, the bell chimer ability states:

Models in this unit may be Bell Chimers. If the unit includes any Bell Chimers, it can move an extra 2" whenever it runs or retreats.

I have taken this to mean that a clanrat can run M+D6+2".If this was just M+2 then the unit wouldn't be running, would it? To run a unit needs to move M+D6 and therefore, clanrats would get +2 to this.

Or am I just being silly? I'm currently a Skave player (for now! working on a VC force) so clarity would be appreciated.

I think everyone agrees that a non-retreating run move is at least M+D6+2" - the question is whether or not it's M+D6+4" when they are running and retreating at the same time (assuming it's legal to run while retreating, but I think it appears so under a strict reading of the rules).

Strictly speaking, there is permission to move an extra 2" when the unit runs OR retreats. There is no permission to move any additional distance when the unit runs AND retreats.

HIWPI... I just can't imagine that GW intended for us to allow a unit to get the extra 2" twice at the same time. If an opponent says he gets +4", I'll challenge. If need be I'd invoke a roll off. I'm also not convinced that running while retreating is the intention either, but RaW appears to support it.

I'm with Kriswall here; I don't think the intent is to run while retreating (though it does make sense somewhat) but the RAW allows it. The bell chimers rule seems to indicate that if you are doing either thing you get the benefit, with no particular advantage for doing both. If it were worded "...extra 2" when it runs, and an extra 2" when it retreats" then I could easily see the 4" argument, but as-is I don't think the rule supports it.