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NO they didn't. The rule specifically states they can assault after disembarking. So again, unless there is a rule that prevents them from disembarking on the turn they arrive, they are allowed to via the Hungry for blood rule.

 mjl7atlas wrote:
NO they didn't. The rule specifically states they can assault after disembarking. So again, unless there is a rule that prevents them from disembarking on the turn they arrive, they are allowed to via the Hungry for blood rule.

There is a specific rule that prevents them from assaulting on the turn that they arrive from reserve that you keep ignoring. Just because they can assault after they disembark is not carte blanche permission to assault the turn they arrive from reserve.

 mjl7atlas wrote:
NO they didn't. The rule specifically states they can assault after disembarking. So again, unless there is a rule that prevents them from disembarking on the turn they arrive, they are allowed to via the Hungry for blood rule.

And where is the rule that SPECIFICALLY allows them to also assault after deepstriking? We have permission for assaulting after disembarking (i.e. if they hope in a rhino to get somewhere), but nothing says "you can also assault despite deepstriking."



Remember, 40k is a permissive rule set, which means it MUST specifically mention the ability to do X or Y or Z in order for you to do it.

....you disembark from a drop pod. Hungry for Blood is the rule you are looking for.

 mjl7atlas wrote:
....you disembark from a drop pod. Hungry for Blood is the rule you are looking for.

Again, where does it say they can charge the same turn they arrive from Reserve? Because 'Hungry for Blood' says no such thing.

Hungry for Blood: This Formation’s unit of Berzerkers must begin the game embarked upon this Formation’s Kharybdis Assault Claw. This unit can charge on the same turn that it disembarks from the Kharybdis Assault Claw.

Not a single mention of Reserves at all. The only restriction lifted is the one on charging on the turn you disembark from a vehicle. It does not lift the restriction on charging the turn you arrive from Reserve or any of the other restrictions which prevent you from charging.

 mjl7atlas wrote:
....you disembark from a drop pod. Hungry for Blood is the rule you are looking for.

Hungry for Blood lifts the restriction on assaulting after disembarking. It does nothing about the separate restriction on assaulting after deep striking.

Think of it as a door with two locks. One of those locks is marked 'Disembarked', the other is marked 'Arrived by Deep Strike'.

Hungry for Blood unlocks the 'Disembarked' lock... But you still have another lock preventing you from opening the door.

 mjl7atlas wrote:
....you disembark from a drop pod. Hungry for Blood is the rule you are looking for.

A pointless point. Drop Pods are Open-Topped which carry the Assault Vehicle rule, which allows for Assaulting after Disembarking. If it states, "may Charge after disembarking when the Drop Pod arrives from Deep Strike Reserves", that would be a different story. But if it is only "may Charge after disembarking", well, permission fo that is redundant with an Open-Topped Vehicle.

 insaniak wrote:

 mjl7atlas wrote:
....you disembark from a drop pod. Hungry for Blood is the rule you are looking for.

Hungry for Blood lifts the restriction on assaulting after disembarking. It does nothing about the separate restriction on assaulting after deep striking.

Think of it as a door with two locks. One of those locks is marked 'Disembarked', the other is marked 'Arrived by Deep Strike'.

Hungry for Blood unlocks the 'Disembarked' lock... But you still have another lock preventing you from opening the door.

I'd say the Assault Vehicle rule unlocks the 'Disembarked' lock. The Hungry for Blood rule just smashes the 'Arrived by Deep Strike' lock to bits I. E. It is no longer a consideration.

My reading of the RAW is that the Hungry for Blood rule overrides the restriction of assaulting after Deep Strike. Could it have been better written? Certainly. I think if they bother to FAQ it they are fairly likely to go with the common sense interpretation in that they can assault on the same turn as Deep Strike.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 mjl7atlas wrote:
....you disembark from a drop pod. Hungry for Blood is the rule you are looking for.

Hungry for Blood lifts the restriction on assaulting after disembarking. It does nothing about the separate restriction on assaulting after deep striking.

Think of it as a door with two locks. One of those locks is marked 'Disembarked', the other is marked 'Arrived by Deep Strike'.

Hungry for Blood unlocks the 'Disembarked' lock... But you still have another lock preventing you from opening the door.

I'd say the Assault Vehicle rule unlocks the 'Disembarked' lock. The Hungry for Blood rule just smashes the 'Arrived by Deep Strike' lock to bits I. E. It is no longer a consideration.

My reading of the RAW is that the Hungry for Blood rule overrides the restriction of assaulting after Deep Strike. Could it have been better written? Certainly. I think if they bother to FAQ it they are fairly likely to go with the common sense interpretation in that they can assault on the same turn as Deep Strike.

It however doesn't. It SPECIFICALLY states you can assault after disembarking. Nowhere there does it mention you can assault after deepstriking. Hopefully they'll do an FAQ that will fix it, but until then there is no permission being granted to assault after entering from reserves/deepstrike, just the ability to assault after disembarking.

 Charistoph wrote:

 mjl7atlas wrote:
....you disembark from a drop pod. Hungry for Blood is the rule you are looking for.

A pointless point. Drop Pods are Open-Topped which carry the Assault Vehicle rule, which allows for Assaulting after Disembarking. If it states, "may Charge after disembarking when the Drop Pod arrives from Deep Strike Reserves", that would be a different story. But if it is only "may Charge after disembarking", well, permission fo that is redundant with an Open-Topped Vehicle.

The experimental rules for the Kharybdis Assault Claw make no mention of being Open-topped. I'm not sure if there are more recent rules in one of the Forge World books.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 mjl7atlas wrote:
....you disembark from a drop pod. Hungry for Blood is the rule you are looking for.

A pointless point. Drop Pods are Open-Topped which carry the Assault Vehicle rule, which allows for Assaulting after Disembarking. If it states, "may Charge after disembarking when the Drop Pod arrives from Deep Strike Reserves", that would be a different story. But if it is only "may Charge after disembarking", well, permission fo that is redundant with an Open-Topped Vehicle.

The experimental rules for the Kharybdis Assault Claw make no mention of being Open-topped. I'm not sure if there are more recent rules in one of the Forge World books.

True, however the Kharybdis rules (that you linked) does include "Assault Vehicle".

 Ghaz wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 mjl7atlas wrote:
....you disembark from a drop pod. Hungry for Blood is the rule you are looking for.

A pointless point. Drop Pods are Open-Topped which carry the Assault Vehicle rule, which allows for Assaulting after Disembarking. If it states, "may Charge after disembarking when the Drop Pod arrives from Deep Strike Reserves", that would be a different story. But if it is only "may Charge after disembarking", well, permission fo that is redundant with an Open-Topped Vehicle.

The experimental rules for the Kharybdis Assault Claw make no mention of being Open-topped. I'm not sure if there are more recent rules in one of the Forge World books.

He didn't say from a Assault Claw, he said from a drop pod.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 mjl7atlas wrote:
....you disembark from a drop pod. Hungry for Blood is the rule you are looking for.

Hungry for Blood lifts the restriction on assaulting after disembarking. It does nothing about the separate restriction on assaulting after deep striking.

Think of it as a door with two locks. One of those locks is marked 'Disembarked', the other is marked 'Arrived by Deep Strike'.

Hungry for Blood unlocks the 'Disembarked' lock... But you still have another lock preventing you from opening the door.

I'd say the Assault Vehicle rule unlocks the 'Disembarked' lock. The Hungry for Blood rule just smashes the 'Arrived by Deep Strike' lock to bits I. E. It is no longer a consideration.

My reading of the RAW is that the Hungry for Blood rule overrides the restriction of assaulting after Deep Strike. Could it have been better written? Certainly. I think if they bother to FAQ it they are fairly likely to go with the common sense interpretation in that they can assault on the same turn as Deep Strike.

It however doesn't. It SPECIFICALLY states you can assault after disembarking. Nowhere there does it mention you can assault after deepstriking. Hopefully they'll do an FAQ that will fix it, but until then there is no permission being granted to assault after entering from reserves/deepstrike, just the ability to assault after disembarking.

Exactly. It explicitly states that the berzerkers in the Kharybdis Assault Claw can assault after disembarking. This SPECIFIC rule overrides the general BRB restriction of not being able to assault after deep striking. I understand your argument and admit they could have written the rule better but I really don't see a problem in terms of RAW.

I think most would agree at least that this is the RAI, would you really make an issue of this with an opponent in an actual game, trying to argue RAW that their bezerkers couldn't charge? As you say, hopefully they will do an FAQ to clarify the rule.

To berry - how does it specifically override a rule when it doesn't specify said rule?

You understand what "to specify" means, yes?

Do you allow the Berzerkers to run and charge? Fire a heavy weapon and charge? (Ignore they can't get one, for now)

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Exactly. It explicitly states that the berzerkers in the Kharybdis Assault Claw can assault after disembarking. This SPECIFIC rule overrides the general BRB restriction of not being able to assault after deep striking. I understand your argument and admit they could have written the rule better but I really don't see a problem in terms of RAW.

I think most would agree at least that this is the RAI, would you really make an issue of this with an opponent in an actual game, trying to argue RAW that their bezerkers couldn't charge? As you say, hopefully they will do an FAQ to clarify the rule.

You might have a case if the Embarked unit in an Assault Claw was required to Disembark upon Deep Striking like a Drop Pod. But it is not. Embarked models in an Assault Claw may stay inside after it arrives.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 mjl7atlas wrote:
....you disembark from a drop pod. Hungry for Blood is the rule you are looking for.

Hungry for Blood lifts the restriction on assaulting after disembarking. It does nothing about the separate restriction on assaulting after deep striking.

Think of it as a door with two locks. One of those locks is marked 'Disembarked', the other is marked 'Arrived by Deep Strike'.

Hungry for Blood unlocks the 'Disembarked' lock... But you still have another lock preventing you from opening the door.

I'd say the Assault Vehicle rule unlocks the 'Disembarked' lock. The Hungry for Blood rule just smashes the 'Arrived by Deep Strike' lock to bits I. E. It is no longer a consideration.

My reading of the RAW is that the Hungry for Blood rule overrides the restriction of assaulting after Deep Strike. Could it have been better written? Certainly. I think if they bother to FAQ it they are fairly likely to go with the common sense interpretation in that they can assault on the same turn as Deep Strike.

It however doesn't. It SPECIFICALLY states you can assault after disembarking. Nowhere there does it mention you can assault after deepstriking. Hopefully they'll do an FAQ that will fix it, but until then there is no permission being granted to assault after entering from reserves/deepstrike, just the ability to assault after disembarking.

Exactly. It explicitly states that the berzerkers in the Kharybdis Assault Claw can assault after disembarking. This SPECIFIC rule overrides the general BRB restriction of not being able to assault after deep striking. I understand your argument and admit they could have written the rule better but I really don't see a problem in terms of RAW.

I think most would agree at least that this is the RAI, would you really make an issue of this with an opponent in an actual game, trying to argue RAW that their bezerkers couldn't charge? As you say, hopefully they will do an FAQ to clarify the rule.

But it doesn't override it. If a rule says I can run and shoot (and nothing about snapshots), does that mean I can run and shoot ordinance weapons? Or blast weapons? I mean, it says I can run and shoot!

Same situation, same answer. No, you can't run and shoot blasts, no you can't assault after disembarking if you arrived via deepstrike. Both cases have ADDITIONAL RESTRICTIONS that haven't been overridden. That's what you're missing, you MUST have all restrictions removed to be able to do something.

 Tonberry7 wrote:


I'd say the Assault Vehicle rule unlocks the 'Disembarked' lock. The Hungry for Blood rule just smashes the 'Arrived by Deep Strike' lock to bits I. E. It is no longer a consideration.

Both rules remove the disembarking restriction. That's all. Having two separate rules that both remove a specific restriction doesn't magically give you the ability to ignore a completely different restriction.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Exactly. It explicitly states that the berzerkers in the Kharybdis Assault Claw can assault after disembarking. This SPECIFIC rule overrides the general BRB restriction of not being able to assault after deep striking.

How does a rule that specifically refers to disembarking apply to deep striking?

 Charistoph wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 mjl7atlas wrote:
....you disembark from a drop pod. Hungry for Blood is the rule you are looking for.

A pointless point. Drop Pods are Open-Topped which carry the Assault Vehicle rule, which allows for Assaulting after Disembarking. If it states, "may Charge after disembarking when the Drop Pod arrives from Deep Strike Reserves", that would be a different story. But if it is only "may Charge after disembarking", well, permission fo that is redundant with an Open-Topped Vehicle.

The experimental rules for the Kharybdis Assault Claw make no mention of being Open-topped. I'm not sure if there are more recent rules in one of the Forge World books.

He didn't say from a Assault Claw, he said from a drop pod.

The rule he's referencing (Hungry for Blood) requires them to begin the game in a Kharybdis Assault Claw and only gives them permission to assault on the turn they disembark from the Assault Claw, not any other vehicles.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
This SPECIFIC rule overrides the general BRB restriction of not being able to assault after deep striking. I understand your argument and admit they could have written the rule better but I really don't see a problem in terms of RAW.

I think yakface has something on this that might help clear up some confusions, specifically:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/520554.page#5505107

 yakface wrote:

2) Restrictions always override permissions, where the two conflict.

So, lets pretend we have a conflict here, or a new situation as used by him which is somewhat the same (thinking an advanced permission is overriding a basic restriction):

 yakface wrote:
For example, an advanced rule may say: 'models with jump packs are able to move 12" in the movement phase', but if a model has gone to ground, then the basic rules restriction against a model being able to move in the movement phase still overrides the advanced rules permission that the model can move 12" in the movement phase.

Replace "jump pack/moving" with assaulting after deepstriking and disembarking as needed, and it's the same thing.

I'm not saying yakface is the end all, be all there is to rules, but he did a great job on explaining how the rule set works.

 Ghaz wrote:

The rule he's referencing (Hungry for Blood) requires them to begin the game in a Kharybdis Assault Claw and only gives them permission to assault on the turn they disembark from the Assault Claw, not any other vehicles.

But mjl7atlas still referenced disembarking from a drop pod, which makes his point even more off. In addition, the Claw also carries the Assault Vehicle rule (at least the version you referenced), which carries the exact same permission as Hungry For Blood.

So, if Hungry for Blood works to allow the Berzerkers to Charge from Claws when they Disembark, then they already had permission to, just like any other unit Disembarking from a standard Drop Pod. That includes Deathwing Dreadnoughts, Skyhammer Annihilation Force Devastator Squads, or even just your basic Tactical Squads either from a CAD or a Battle Demi-Company.

So, unless it is a different Claw they are referencing, it is a rather pointless rule.

 insaniak wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:


I'd say the Assault Vehicle rule unlocks the 'Disembarked' lock. The Hungry for Blood rule just smashes the 'Arrived by Deep Strike' lock to bits I. E. It is no longer a consideration.

Both rules remove the disembarking restriction. That's all. Having two separate rules that both remove a specific restriction doesn't magically give you the ability to ignore a completely different restriction.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Exactly. It explicitly states that the berzerkers in the Kharybdis Assault Claw can assault after disembarking. This SPECIFIC rule overrides the general BRB restriction of not being able to assault after deep striking.

How does a rule that specifically refers to disembarking apply to deep striking?

OK I do understand what you are all saying about the restriction on assaulting after deep striking still applying. It just seems to me that the Hungry for Blood rule was written to override this restriction. Otherwise it's a pointless rule as it just doesn't allow anything the Assault Vehicle rule doesn't already allow.

I've already stated that Hungry for Blood was badly written but I'd therefore expect any FAQ to confirm that the berzerkers could indeed assault after deep striking. If I'm wrong then I'd accept that but then the Hungry for Blood rule really would then be pointless.

 jokerkd wrote:

 mjl7atlas wrote:
Except the hungry for blood rule specifically allows them to charge upon disembarking.

But does not specifically allow them to do so on the turn they arrive from reserve

More importantly, the formation would require them to be embarked in a battle brother transport which can't be done anymore.

Is there a different Claw variant not in Experimental rules?

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:

 mjl7atlas wrote:
Except the hungry for blood rule specifically allows them to charge upon disembarking.

But does not specifically allow them to do so on the turn they arrive from reserve

More importantly, the formation would require them to be embarked in a battle brother transport which can't be done anymore.

You think two units from the same faction and even same detachment are treated as battle brothers?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:


I'd say the Assault Vehicle rule unlocks the 'Disembarked' lock. The Hungry for Blood rule just smashes the 'Arrived by Deep Strike' lock to bits I. E. It is no longer a consideration.

Both rules remove the disembarking restriction. That's all. Having two separate rules that both remove a specific restriction doesn't magically give you the ability to ignore a completely different restriction.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Exactly. It explicitly states that the berzerkers in the Kharybdis Assault Claw can assault after disembarking. This SPECIFIC rule overrides the general BRB restriction of not being able to assault after deep striking.

How does a rule that specifically refers to disembarking apply to deep striking?

OK I do understand what you are all saying about the restriction on assaulting after deep striking still applying. It just seems to me that the Hungry for Blood rule was written to override this restriction. Otherwise it's a pointless rule as it just doesn't allow anything the Assault Vehicle rule doesn't already allow.

I've already stated that Hungry for Blood was badly written but I'd therefore expect any FAQ to confirm that the berzerkers could indeed assault after deep striking. If I'm wrong then I'd accept that but then the Hungry for Blood rule really would then be pointless.

Welcome to GW rules writing. They sometimes write pointless rules, because (under Kirby atleast) the goal was to push as much product with as little quality required (now, I'm not saying it's entirely his fault, but his attitude influenced everything in the company)

 Wolfblade wrote:
Welcome to GW rules writing. They sometimes write pointless rules, because (under Kirby atleast) the goal was to push as much product with as little quality required (now, I'm not saying it's entirely his fault, but his attitude influenced everything in the company)

Like the Necron Obelisk's Gravity Pulse being able to force Swooping Monstrous Creatures to take a Dangerous Terrain Test, even though all of them would automatically pass it (not just ignore it, PASS it) because of their innate Move Through Cover?

Tonberry- so can they run and charge as well? You didn't answer that...

Yes, we all know what is probably intended. Doesn't alter that they messed up.

 jokerkd wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:

 mjl7atlas wrote:
Except the hungry for blood rule specifically allows them to charge upon disembarking.

But does not specifically allow them to do so on the turn they arrive from reserve

More importantly, the formation would require them to be embarked in a battle brother transport which can't be done anymore.

You think two units from the same faction and even same detachment are treated as battle brothers?

The Berzerkers must have KDK faction and the Kharybdis is clearly stated to be from the CSM faction, can't really see how else it could be seen. There are other detachments that draw from multiple factions in the game too, the Dominus Maniple comes to mind first.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:
... and the Kharybdis is clearly stated to be from the CSM faction...

I see where it states that a Kharybdis Assault Claw is a Heavy Support choice for an army created using a Space Marine Crusade army list or a Codex: Chaos Space Marines army. I see nothing stating its Faction.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:
... and the Kharybdis is clearly stated to be from the CSM faction...

I see where it states that a Kharybdis Assault Claw is a Heavy Support choice for an army created using a Space Marine Crusade army list or a Codex: Chaos Space Marines army. I see nothing stating its Faction.

That is stating its Faction right there.