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Noir wrote:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
Do the stores that disallow Forgeworld products also disallow discontinued GW miniatures?
Because if I bring in my 1990s Imperial Guard army, all but 60pts of that can not be bought from them any more.

Why would it not be allowed, the whole point of the ban is to sell 40k over 30k by showing 40k played not 30k.

Because the point raised repeatedly in this topic was that there's a downside to customers witnessing people using or painting products that cannot be obtained in the store.
30K vs 40K is much less of a pertinent issue when plastics are incoming.

No I'm pretty sure the point is the manager only wanting games played in the store, where if some would like to play that game. They don't have to go some where else to get them. Some may try to twist it but that is the point.

Playing 40k with old models still sells 40k.

The point is that the manager is trying to stop people painting or playing with models he can not sell.

He can not sell OOP miniatures any more than he can sell FW.

There is no difference.

This also leads us down the path of miniatures bought at 10% off at the FLGS down the road, or bought 10 years ago and gathered dust on a shelf, or from eBay or other guys in the local community looking to sell an army.
The manager is trying to make it so that the models being painted or played with in store have been bought from him, which is a slippery slope.

 Bottle wrote:
Our new manager has now essentially banned all Forgeworld models from being played or painted in store.

If I owned any FW models and played at that store, I would call GW Corporate, ask them why the store manager has a "no FW" policy.

A mass phone campaign of complaints over not being able to use the GW product at the GW store should do wonders in having things changed.

Preferably by having idiot boy put out on the streets in favor of someone who is more accommodating.

This really isn't something anyone deserves to lose their job over, especially as single-man-store GW managers are up against it to keep theirs to begin with. Let's not get too pitchforks and torches here.

And yes, jonolikespie hit what I'm getting at, there.

Although I would argue it's less about the personal ego of who made the sale, and more that like eating a banana in a florist, if a customer asks what's going on, it's difficult to steer that into a sale.
Arguably something you bought in store two weeks ago is no longer making him or her an active profit, but it can be redirected into one.

 jonolikespie wrote:
The point is that the manager is trying to stop people painting or playing with models he can not sell.

He can not sell OOP miniatures any more than he can sell FW.

There is no difference.

This also leads us down the path of miniatures bought at 10% off at the FLGS down the road, or bought 10 years ago and gathered dust on a shelf, or from eBay or other guys in the local community looking to sell an army.
The manager is trying to make it so that the models being painted or played with in store have been bought from him, which is a slippery slope.

One helps sell a game and product they can buy in the store one does not simple really, the second part of your post is just trolling and you know it.

You know what also helps selling product?

Having people in store to sell to.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
Because the point raised repeatedly in this topic was that there's a downside to customers witnessing people using or painting products that cannot be obtained in the store.
30K vs 40K is much less of a pertinent issue when plastics are incoming.

Even less of an issue of FW products can be ordered to/through GW stores.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
This really isn't something anyone deserves to lose their job over,

The hell it isn't. The store exists to support the Customers who actually bought product. If the manager isn't doing that, absolutely, he should lose his job.

JamesY wrote:A lot of people obviously resented being made redundant from a company they loved, but that's the modern world, and gw are far from the only company to have made such decisions.

Isn't that true. I've done work for companies that make *billions* of dollars; they have so much cash on hand that there are literally no companies they want that they can acquire, yet they still "streamline". The other perspective, of course, is that having too many people not doing useful things decreases everyone's productivity and efficiency, and some of those people should never have been hired anyways.

Regardless, that's the world we live in now: stand out, make yourself useful, better yet, truly valuable, or you might be looking for a new job, no matter the company.

JamesY wrote:You have to remember it's the store manager's income that rides on the success of the store, and a decent store manager can potentially earn over double their salary if they are growing the store. It's the guys' mortgage payments, food, bills etc on the line for them. I believed that a few FW models was ok, I could sell tactical squads, paints and glue etc off the back of other customers seeing them. However, a full game of 30k with models, books etc that I can't sell? No way. If a new or returning hobbyist saw it and decided that's what they want, I've just given away a customer I need in my store. Yes the company as a whole doesn't loose out, but that store and that manager will, and that is their priority. They aren't measured on the companies performance, just on their own.

This is actually a pretty fair point. There are also independent stores that don't allow you to play games that they don't sell. For instance, I recall a local store that did mostly trading cards and a little bit of PP. If you wanted to play 40k there, they'd politely ask you not to. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, either.

I think fielding FW units in a 40k game (like a couple of knights and a deimos pattern, for instance) should be treated differently than a group playing 30k, though, and it should really the manager should just use their best judgement. Either way, there's a correct, polite and respectful way to explain it to the customer, who should be mindful of how things work from the manager's perspective.

JamesY wrote:For the record, I don't believe we will see FW being sold over the counter, that wing does not have enough logistic resource to carry that out. We might be seeing something else though soon, something that would make any individual with delusions of grandeur trying to 'ban' FW in a quite impossible situation...

This is actually a crazy situation. What should a business do if demand is so high that it exceeds not just supply, but supply constraints (for example, the life of a master)? I wince at the answer, because I like my Forge World products, and they're probably as much as I'd like to spend on models ($20 for 10 heads? Wow!). But.... The obvious answer is... raise the price until there is an equilibrium. Mark it up at the by whatever they can get away with... as long as people will buy so much stuff that you can't make enough, the business solution is to just take the money from the people willing to pay the MOST money. *groans*

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The store exists to support the Customers who actually bought product. .

SInce when?

A store exists to sell product. Providing gaming space for customers to use is just a bonus, and is done because it can bring in extra sales. It's not an obligation. The store isn't required to provide for you for evermore just because you bought something from them.


And, of course, that's beside the point where Forgeworld is concerned... If you're only buying 30K products from Forgeworld, you aren't a customer of a store that doesn't sell Forgeworld product.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talys wrote:
This is actually a crazy situation. What should a business do if demand is so high that it exceeds not just supply, but supply constraints (for example, the life of a master)? *

Outsource to China, discover the hard way that outsourcing to China without adequate oversight results in poor quality control, unexpected delays and the sudden appearance of unauthorised recasts on the market, pull everything back in-house and try to forget that the whole mess ever happened while carrying on with just keeping up with demand as best you can and reporting any Chinese sellers on eBay offering cheap product so that they can be reported... appears to be the option that Forgeworld chose.

Still waiting to see what they do next

Talys wrote:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
Because the point raised repeatedly in this topic was that there's a downside to customers witnessing people using or painting products that cannot be obtained in the store.
30K vs 40K is much less of a pertinent issue when plastics are incoming.

Even less of an issue of FW products can be ordered to/through GW stores.

They cannot here. You cannot use the FW website on their computers, either. It is blocked.
(As is my experience in August, through from 2014, I could be out of date if it's been rectified in September).

JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
This really isn't something anyone deserves to lose their job over,

The hell it isn't. The store exists to support the Customers who actually bought product. If the manager isn't doing that, absolutely, he should lose his job.

It absolutely is not. He is not endangering, insulting, cheating or otherwise causing harm to a customer. He is not taking money or time from them under false pretences, he is not damaging their possessions or impinging their actual rights.
It deserves an honest looking into by higher ups and correcting if it's not company policy.
To render someone unemployed is needlessly bloodthirsty over a strange and easily clarified decision.

Noir wrote:
No I'm pretty sure the point is the manager only wanting games played in the store, where if some would like to play that game. They don't have to go some where else to get them. Some may try to twist it but that is the point.

Playing 40k with old models still sells 40k.

So does playing 30K, given the number of 40K models I see people use in it.

 Bookwrack wrote:

Noir wrote:
No I'm pretty sure the point is the manager only wanting games played in the store, where if some would like to play that game. They don't have to go some where else to get them. Some may try to twist it but that is the point.

Playing 40k with old models still sells 40k.

So does playing 30K, given the number of 40K models I see people use in it.

If the OP is correct then not at the store we are talking about.

Noir wrote:

 Bookwrack wrote:

Noir wrote:
No I'm pretty sure the point is the manager only wanting games played in the store, where if some would like to play that game. They don't have to go some where else to get them. Some may try to twist it but that is the point.

Playing 40k with old models still sells 40k.

So does playing 30K, given the number of 40K models I see people use in it.

If the OP is correct then not at the store we are talking about.

Nowhere in the OP does it say that players are not using 40K figures.
It merely says "some" are exclusively playing 30K. A second interpretation of phrasing is that "some" are exclusively using FW.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

Noir wrote:

 Bookwrack wrote:

Noir wrote:
No I'm pretty sure the point is the manager only wanting games played in the store, where if some would like to play that game. They don't have to go some where else to get them. Some may try to twist it but that is the point.

Playing 40k with old models still sells 40k.

So does playing 30K, given the number of 40K models I see people use in it.

If the OP is correct then not at the store we are talking about.

Nowhere in the OP does it say that players are not using 40K figures.
It merely says "some" are exclusively playing 30K. A second interpretation of phrasing is that "some" are exclusively using FW.

Since the ban is on FW models, I think it is pretty safe to stand by my post.

It is entirely possibly and often financially requisite for the average player to include 40K models in a 30K army. Especially as some units I am told, do not yet have a FW release.
You may stand by your post, but it is an assumption.

I'm merely saying we don't know for certain that folk were fielding a suitcase full of resin without a single current GW product.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
This really isn't something anyone deserves to lose their job over,

The hell it isn't. The store exists to support the Customers who actually bought product. If the manager isn't doing that, absolutely, he should lose his job.

So when you buy trainers you expect the retailer to provide you with somewhere to run? A store is there to sell products, not provide a refuge in which to use your purchase. It's a huge bonus that in gw stores you are able to do your hobby. It's a privilege, not an entitlement to be taken for granted.

Remember when once upon a time the use of GW stores actually was a justification for their high prices?

 jonolikespie wrote:
Remember when once upon a time the use of GW stores actually was a justification for their high prices?

I don't recall that ever being a thing, no.

 insaniak wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Remember when once upon a time the use of GW stores actually was a justification for their high prices?

I don't recall that ever being a thing, no.

It wasn't true, but it was an argument that some made. I even heard GW staff making the argument.

FW products still need glue and paint.

He can't sell the models, but he could still make money out of it.

Banning them imo does nothing to help the store's sales.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Remember when once upon a time the use of GW stores actually was a justification for their high prices?

I don't recall that ever being a thing, no.

It wasn't true, but it was an argument that some made. I even heard GW staff making the argument.

Yeah I've often heard it used by GW staff. Dunno what HQ think of it, but the staff definitely tried to use it as an excuse to shift product.

I know some people don't care about gaming at GW stores, but it is definitely a selling point for many people. It's where I played 90% of my games in the first few years I was in the hobby.

jonolikespie wrote:The point is that the manager is trying to stop people painting or playing with models he can not sell.

He can not sell OOP miniatures any more than he can sell FW.

There is no difference.

Except one can lead to a sale of the bigger, flashier, updated 40K models, and one can't.

So y'see, a difference.

I've told you this earlier, Jono. Is there some selective blindness going on?

JohnHwangDD wrote:If I owned any FW models and played at that store, I would call GW Corporate, ask them why the store manager has a "no FW" policy.

And they'd probably reply back "cos we pay our valued employee and GW family member to make loadsamoney by selling the products available from that store. If he doesn't we'll kick da bum to the kerb! Ell Oh Ell Smiley Face!"

Preferably by having idiot boy put out on the streets in favor of someone who is more accommodating.

... who'll then be put out on the streets because he lets his customers go buy FW models instead of what he sells.

jonolikespie wrote:You know what also helps selling product?

Having people in store to sell to.

If most of them are using armies that are mostly composed of online-only FW models, it almost amounts to the same thing as 'having no people in store to sell to'.

Buttery Commissar wrote:
Although I would argue it's less about the personal ego of who made the sale, and more that like eating a banana in a florist, if a customer asks what's going on, it's difficult to steer that into a sale.

Yup!

Buttery Commissar wrote:They cannot here. You cannot use the FW website on their computers, either. It is blocked.
(As is my experience in August, through from 2014, I could be out of date if it's been rectified in September).

Yup! I mentioned this already, too. And I tried looking at the BL site in-store sometime this year, maybe 4-5 months ago.

Big Blind Bill wrote:FW products still need glue and paint.

He can't sell the models, but he could still make money out of it.

Ching ching!

"We saw that profits at your branch have fallen off quite a bit. We're just calling you to find out why that might be."

"Oh! Well... most of the regular customers are buying Forgeworld models online instead of the stuff I have here. But don't worry! I sold three whole bottles of glue to them, this month!

"Ah, well that's okay then! That's what we put you there for..."

Banning them imo does nothing to help the store's sales.

I think it's a sign of the grip GW have on some gamers' psyches that the GW store is seen as some hallowed, inviolable gaming space, set apart for a select few. Like some version of Cheers where everyone knows your name, that must have the same Cliffs and Norms for years on end, who have plastic crack poured down their throats instead of beer. (But, by crikey, you can bet no-one's allowed to run a tab)

If FW armies are banned in that shop, maybe the 30K players will start playing 40K again. Maybe they 'll take a snit and walk out. Maybe that'll leave the shop bereft and empty. But y'know what I think will happen? The shop will fill right back up again.

 Ghaz wrote:
Who says they're not intended to act as advertising? Just because they don't say so doesn't make it true. There's no better advertising than showing other people having fun, and if you buy our product you can have fun too.

An unintended biproduct of having tables in store, not their primary use.

If the primary intention was to use them as a means of advertising through other people playing (and not staff members demoing to newbs) then they wouldn't be 4x4 (if that) ROB boards in stores that barely have enough room to accommodate them.

One doesn't showcase ones product by showing it in a limited way. I've always maintained that GW would be better off with fewer WHW style stores than the litany of broom closets that comprises their current portfolio, but that isn't what they do.

Vermis, from what I'm peripherally aware of, and having seen our local manager blasted out of the airlock despite his increase in sales over the previous one, there is an intensely competitive push for sales in each shop, that reportedly does not take prisoners.
There is little interest in gradual audience building, only direct results, according to him as he was let go. Of course an individual does not necessarily represent anything but a single case.
Yea, the "bums on seats = sales" ideal doesn't fly, our store was never empty, and it did not save him.

However I don't feel that's solely what is at play here, so to speak. Without asking the individual at Bottle's store, there's no guarantee as to why this decision was made.


I agree with querying this idea that the player in any way can make demands of the play space.
The store does not sell FW items. It doesn't sell Early Learning Centre plastic trucks either. If they do not support either of these items in store, the only difference is that one fits thematically with the creations of the parent company.
Here's the thing: GW don't owe us a game of any kind in the building.
It's not a cinema, buying our toys there doesn't guarantee you anything else.
They owe us courteous service, a healthy environment if we are purchasing their goods, to follow trade laws and respect our consumer rights.

If the staff are not handling your money or your property, that is where their actual obligation ends.
The moment you sit on one of their plastic stools or put your figures down, we're in their playground, quite literally.

Ching ching!

"We saw that profits at your branch have fallen off quite a bit. We're just calling you to find out why that might be."

"Oh! Well... most of the regular customers are buying Forgeworld models online instead of the stuff I have here. But don't worry! I sold three whole bottles of glue to them, this month!

"Ah, well that's okay then! That's what we put you there for..."

Please turn your attention to this page....: http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Painting-Modelling

Besides, even if the paint and other accessories were not as highly overpriced as GW's other products, some money beats no money.
If a store bans FW products, and somebody has/wants a FW army, then it is unlikely this policy will change their minds. They will just game elsewhere.

If I had invested money in a FW army (hell, even a single unit come to think of it, when you consider the prices) and was then told I couldn't use it in the shop belonging to the company I had bought it from, then I wouldn't be inclined to go back.

Buttery Commissar wrote:Vermis, from what I'm peripherally aware of, and having seen our local manager blasted out of the airlock despite his increase in sales over the previous one

Blimey!

However I don't feel that's solely what is at play here, so to speak. Without asking the individual at Bottle's store, there's no guarantee as to why this decision was made.

Agreed. I know we're all indulging in rampant speculation here (hurrah internet!), though there are some factors (like your info) and a couple of my own first-hand experiences that suggest desperate targets probably have an influence.

Big Blind Bill wrote:
Please turn your attention to this page....: http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Painting-Modelling

And? Look at this 'un.

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Warhammer-40-000

You might have to replace them every so often (more often than other paint ranges), but you might make a better (and demanded) profit off one gamer buying a couple of ~£30 (at least) kits a month than a couple of ~£30 paint-sets-worth of pots a couple of times a year.

some money beats no money.

'Some money' from the same old bunch is not good enough. 'No money' from the same old bunch won't matter much when a brand new bunch strolls in.

If a store bans FW products, and somebody has/wants a FW army, then it is unlikely this policy will change their minds. They will just game elsewhere.

If I had invested money in a FW army (hell, even a single unit come to think of it, when you consider the prices) and was then told I couldn't use it in the shop belonging to the company I had bought it from, then I wouldn't be inclined to go back.

If you buy little other than FW models, I'm sure they'll miss you.

This is what I'm talking about, what BC is talking about. This is what people don't get. This is not Sam trying to coax Norm back to the bar because they're buddies. You're only a valued customer as long as you keep putting money in the till. Their till. The manager's till. The definition of a customer.
You're not indispensable. Maybe if a shop builds up a bad reputation over years, that'll chase enough customers away to ruin it; but any manager who'd let that happen should rightly be long gone anyway. But don't think for a minute that you suddenly leaving the shop with your mass of non-citadel minis, even with a bunch of other gamers, will absolutely signal it's death. There are a lot of other gamers and potential gamers who will gladly fill your space around those tiny demo tables, as long as GW itself lasts. I know what I'm talking about. I've said it before. It's been a good few years since 'my' set of vets and our non-core models were turned out of our local GW. These days there are times I'd have trouble getting into the shop, it's so packed out. Even soon after the event, it was packed out with gamers I didn't recognise. GW moved on, and I feel very fortunate that it made some of us move on too.

I mean, what, do you think each GW shop has had it's same small bunch of regulars for the past 30 years or something?

 jonolikespie wrote:
You know what also helps selling product?

Having people in store to sell to.

Or not having it shut because they only want one guy there and he has to go out by law for lunch and close shop. The amount of times they've missed a random impulse sale from me because of that and it being closed on Mondays for some reason.

Thanks for all the comments guys. I'm not naming or shaming the store because I really like playing there and play all my AoS in there.

Funny thing with the OOP model debate is I'm currently painting up a Dwarf Cannon from BFSP in the store :-p

I think I find the FW ban more strange than a 30k ban, because it penalizes all the 40k players and AoS players who have added some nice units to their army too.

The manager is experienced from a number of previous stores, and seems like an alright guy. Maybe just stuck inbetween the rock and a hard place GW have created with crazy targets and no FW delivers in store.