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I think the best compromises I've seen so far were...

1. Give them 5+ FNP
2. Give them a re-roll on deep strike scatter
3. 2 heavy weapons per 5 man squad (and drop the costs of those weapons by 5 points)
4. Make stormbolters assault 3 or make them Str 5
5. HoW
6. Make the shooty ones BS 5 and the assaulty ones WS 5

I like all of those option bomtek80. Could make for some really awesome squads.

They don't need the reroll on the scatter because Teleport Homers are easy to access.
Where does the FNP come from too?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They don't need the reroll on the scatter because Teleport Homers are easy to access.
Where does the FNP come from too?

Hey hey now, Chaos doesn't have access to Teleport Homers. Our poor Terminators and Daemons have to randomly teleport onto battlefields still!

FNP would be nice too to make up for how squishy a 1 wound model can be. A 1 in 6 chance of death for an expensive model when Space Marines already die 2 in 6 times.

 Arkaine wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They don't need the reroll on the scatter because Teleport Homers are easy to access.
Where does the FNP come from too?

Hey hey now, Chaos doesn't have access to Teleport Homers. Our poor Terminators and Daemons have to randomly teleport onto battlefields still!

FNP would be nice too to make up for how squishy a 1 wound model can be. A 1 in 6 chance of death for an expensive model when Space Marines already die 2 in 6 times.

Fluff wise, it makes little sense. And the core issue is that Terminators don't deal good damage. That's what REALLY needs to be fixed. A minimum squad dropped a whole 25 points, and we still don't want them because, well, no damage would be done anyway.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Fluff wise, it makes little sense. And the core issue is that Terminators don't deal good damage. That's what REALLY needs to be fixed. A minimum squad dropped a whole 25 points, and we still don't want them because, well, no damage would be done anyway.

They're tanks though. The kind you should be able to deep strike into the middle of a pack of enemies and not worry too much about whether they will survive. Dealing damage is what the squishy guys with heavy weapons can already do. Tanking and dealing damage is what our super elite units and HQs can do. If they just made Termies better than Bikes, I'd be sold but currently I'd rather bring the bikes despite them having less firepower than the Termies.

Terminators have limited firepower in a situation where negating firepower is more important due to proximity to the enemy. Don't believe me? Ask Tyranid players how useful Genestealers are. Plenty of damage and death, not so much living through the next turn. What makes them a joke is that whether in close combat or shooting phase, volume of fire invalidates their existence. They are too expensive to fall so easily to a LASGUN.

I mean if you want evidence that they aren't for wholesale slaughter, look no further than their inability to perform a Sweeping Advance. Or heck, their old 2+ armor save using 2d6 pick the highest. They were absolutely invincible back then! Tying up large blobs with superior armor and weapons, tanking heavy hitting characters, or marching through volumes of fire "slow and purposefully" should be their goal as a unit. We have plenty of other units for obliterating models.

Lets do the 2d6 armor save and pic the highest.

 Filch wrote:
Lets do the 2d6 armor save and pic the highest.

That was basically my original suggestion of giving them a re-rollable 2+ armor save. It's not the feth tons of ap2 and 1 weapons people can get now, it's all the "shoot them 100 times with crappy AP weapons and invalidate their armor anyway" that gets to me.

Stop with the durability "fixes" as that wont really fix them.

I would absolutely take them in a game if they were more durable. That and a lack of firepower is why they don't get played.

I feel they just need more options for firepower. Whilst thematically giving them grav, melta, plasma etc dosent fit buffing them to two heavy weapons per 5 man unit, 4 per 10 and buffing storm bolters to something like salvo 2/4 could work.

And two wounds to stop those losses to Grot fire please.....

 bomtek80 wrote:
I would absolutely take them in a game if they were more durable. That and a lack of firepower is why they don't get played.

The lack of firepower is the real killer. That's my point.

I wish storm bolters where like hurricane bolters and Hurricane bolters had 1 more shot.

Martel732 wrote:

 bomtek80 wrote:
I would absolutely take them in a game if they were more durable. That and a lack of firepower is why they don't get played.

The lack of firepower is the real killer. That's my point.

Exactly. Any more durable, and they'll just be ignored like usual.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 bomtek80 wrote:
I would absolutely take them in a game if they were more durable. That and a lack of firepower is why they don't get played.

The lack of firepower is the real killer. That's my point.

Exactly. Any more durable, and they'll just be ignored like usual.

I find that most of my opponents don't ignore a squad of guys full of powerfists or thunder hammers that teleport right next to their troops. So they usually shoot the feth out of them. That's why I care more about their durability.

 bomtek80 wrote:

I find that most of my opponents don't ignore a squad of guys full of powerfists or thunder hammers that teleport right next to their troops. So they usually shoot the feth out of them. That's why I care more about their durability.

Exactly, and the more durable they are, the more firepower your opponent will have to direct at them.

 bomtek80 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 bomtek80 wrote:
I would absolutely take them in a game if they were more durable. That and a lack of firepower is why they don't get played.

The lack of firepower is the real killer. That's my point.

Exactly. Any more durable, and they'll just be ignored like usual.

I find that most of my opponents don't ignore a squad of guys full of powerfists or thunder hammers that teleport right next to their troops. So they usually shoot the feth out of them. That's why I care more about their durability.

I ignore Terminators every time they I see them, and for good reason. They aren't scary.

Probably because they cave to massed fire quite easily, more durability would make them scarier.
That said while an overall buff is a good idea and we shouldn't focus on firepower to the exclusion of all else, buffing firepower is important because otherwise they'll all just go "Wow, Terminators are awesome now! I need to fill my army with TH/SS Assault Terminators!", leaving Tactical Termies in the dust once again.

My idea for the new Storm Bolter profile would be something like this:
24" S4 AP5 Salvo 2/4 Closing Shot
[b]Closing Shot:[/s]
This weapon is design to hold a steady stream of fire even as the unit closes in on the enemy.
This weapon always fires at full range and allows the user to Assault after using it, even if they don't have Relentless or Slow And Purposeful.

I tacked on that special rule to not screw over non-Relentless/SnP infantry that use Storm Bolters, like PAGKs. Then when those guys move it's at least just as effective as the original was.
Also considered giving it the Strength and/or AP of the Heavy Bolter (which itself would need a buff by extension but I left it out of this post since it's not that relevant, but could if people wanted/needed to know), but decided against it.
In addition, one guy in that thread suggested Sternguard-style special ammo, as well as some alternate buffed profiles for the SB.

S4 shooting is still too weak. They need heavy bolters at a minimum. I don't care about the sculpts.

Nope, we've been over this in the other thread.

Martel732 wrote:
S4 shooting is still too weak. They need heavy bolters at a minimum. I don't care about the sculpts.

What if it was something like the new tau firewarrior guns where the strength and ap get better the closer they are.

My proposed stormbolter profile
At 24" S4 ap5 assault 2
At 12" S5 ap4 assault 2
At 6" S6 ap3 assault 2

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
S4 shooting is still too weak. They need heavy bolters at a minimum. I don't care about the sculpts.

What if it was something like the new tau firewarrior guns where the strength and ap get better the closer they are.

My proposed stormbolter profile
At 24" S4 ap5 assault 2
At 12" S5 ap4 assault 2
At 6" S6 ap3 assault 2

This has stopped being a buff terminator topic and become a Buff my Storm Bolter topic.

Chaos Terminators don't even have Storm Bolters. We use Combi-boltors, a single twin-linked shot at most ranges. Considering every single Champion of Chaos I have can buy one for 3pts, any buff to the weapon is going to improve the army itself. I don't think Space Marines or the Storm Boltor need changes at all, the weapon and the army are lethal enough.

Fix Terminators please. If you want to give them dakka, they simply need better weapons than something common infantry carry. One of their options could always be exchanging that power weapon for another gun and being dreadful in close combat.

Storm bolters aren't lethal at all. That's the problem.

 Arkaine wrote:
[ I don't think Space Marines or the Storm Boltor need changes at all, the weapon and the army are lethal enough.

While I agree that durability is the core issue here, from both a fluff and a gameplay point of view, the storm bolter falls awfully short. It doesn't even have a higher rate of fire than a rapid firing bolter. I equip my models with them for the sole reason that they look cool, in full knowledge that its probably points badly spent. That should change.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Probably because they cave to massed fire quite easily, more durability would make them scarier.
That said while an overall buff is a good idea and we shouldn't focus on firepower to the exclusion of all else, buffing firepower is important because otherwise they'll all just go "Wow, Terminators are awesome now! I need to fill my army with TH/SS Assault Terminators!", leaving Tactical Termies in the dust once again.

My idea for the new Storm Bolter profile would be something like this:
24" S4 AP5 Salvo 2/4 Closing Shot
[b]Closing Shot:[/s]
This weapon is design to hold a steady stream of fire even as the unit closes in on the enemy.
This weapon always fires at full range and allows the user to Assault after using it, even if they don't have Relentless or Slow And Purposeful.

I tacked on that special rule to not screw over non-Relentless/SnP infantry that use Storm Bolters, like PAGKs. Then when those guys move it's at least just as effective as the original was.
Also considered giving it the Strength and/or AP of the Heavy Bolter (which itself would need a buff by extension but I left it out of this post since it's not that relevant, but could if people wanted/needed to know), but decided against it.
In addition, one guy in that thread suggested Sternguard-style special ammo, as well as some alternate buffed profiles for the SB.

That is why I also suggested upping the amount of heavy weapons a regular squad of termies can take. If 5 guys can have two assault cannons or missle launchers they'd at least be a bit more of a consideration as to their firepower. Heck, make it three heavy weapons per 5 maybe. Drop the point costs on those weapons as well.

Yeah, certainly 2 Heavies per 5 (3 might be pushing it a little though). But the Storm Bolter needs to be at least reasonable on its own too. Particularly since it's seen as pretty lame on other platforms too.

And of course buffing the Storm Bolter would imply lowering the cost of the non-CML Heavies.

I feel the issue with Terminators isn't durability. It is the lack of Firepower and mobility. Their options for mobility are horrible. I feel a once per game teleport like the Dreadknights have might help with that, and the storm bolters should just go away on them. I know they are iconic but the game has changed so much since terminators were introduced that I feel it wouldn't unbalance things to just give them heavy bolters or heavy flamers stock. You could keep their current points value as well with this option. maybe access to the OP grav cannons. Not saying all of these things at once. That might be too much.

twin lightning claws just plain suck. I feel like assault termies should be able to replace one or both lightning claws with, power fist, thunder hammer, chain fist, and storm shield.

The only other way to fix them would be massive points drops to make them competitive with bikes points wise.

A third option would be to nerf bikes

At this point i just don't know. Everything is such a mess with 40k right now.

Yes, it would be a bad idea to give them Heavy Bolters/Flamers default, they have bloody Storm Bolters modeled onto them already, you can't just can't change that without screwing over all those models!

The better solution is to buff the Storm Bolter itself, I already posted a buffed one and you could give it S5 and/or AP4 on top. Of course this indirectly means the Heavy Bolter getting a buff but that's not too relevant here.

They should make cyclones different to normal heavy weapons, you can take a heavy weapon per 5, and a cyclone per 5 men, the cyclones can fire at full bs at a different target, they have sky fire and interceptor also (this shot is outside the normal squad, so if it intercepts on your opponents turn, only the cyclone cannot fire in the termies player turn).

The cyclone also has monster hunter and tank hunter.

Also, I'd go back to the old school... No assault and tactical terminators, mix them back in.

There's only so much you can do with a T4 model that dies at a 16% rate to any wound and costs a small fortune.