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Martel732 wrote: There's only so much you can do with a T4 model that dies at a 16% rate to any wound and costs a small fortune.
Yep. They could give Terminators Strength D melee weapons that strike on initiative (with an appropriate point cost hike...) and they still would die at an alarming rate.
Possibly the ultimate thing they can do for terminators is bring back the option spam of older editions. Let us completely customize them to be the Jack-of-all-Trades problem solver we know they can be. Buy more wounds, buy an even better armor save, buy re-rollable 2+/5+ saves, buy invuln upgrades, buy tactical nuclear weapons, buy personal teleporters, buy void shields, buy jump packs, buy Toughness upgrades, buy Strength upgrades, buy buy buy. Turn it into a total Pay-to-Win unit. The catch is... the more you invest into them, the louder your curses when you roll a 1.
It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately.
endlesswaltz123 wrote:They should make cyclones different to normal heavy weapons, you can take a heavy weapon per 5, and a cyclone per 5 men, the cyclones can fire at full bs at a different target, they have sky fire and interceptor also (this shot is outside the normal squad, so if it intercepts on your opponents turn, only the cyclone cannot fire in the termies player turn).
The cyclone also has monster hunter and tank hunter.
Also, I'd go back to the old school... No assault and tactical terminators, mix them back in.
Sounds reasonable enough, I suppose. Might be worth tweaking, but not hitting me as a bad idea. I have my doubts about the Interceptor bit, maybe leave that out.
Might be overkill, but it might not.
That I'm absolutely behind, just set 'em up like Deathwing (they're "Tactical" by default but you can swap the weapons for a pair of Lightning Claws for free and TH/SS for 10 points)!
Martel732 wrote:There's only so much you can do with a T4 model that dies at a 16% rate to any wound and costs a small fortune.
Yeah, but that much could be enough. Also T5 and/or re-rollable Armor are on the table too.
Don't believe me? It's all in the numbers.
Number 1: That's terror.
Number 2: That's terror.
Dark Angels/Angels of Vengeance combo - ???? - Input wanted!
Yes, it would be a bad idea to give them Heavy Bolters/Flamers default, they have bloody Storm Bolters modeled onto them already, you can't just can't change that without screwing over all those models!
The better solution is to buff the Storm Bolter itself, I already posted a buffed one and you could give it S5 and/or AP4 on top. Of course this indirectly means the Heavy Bolter getting a buff but that's not too relevant here.
This kind of thing isn't unheard of for GW. I think they would consider it just to sell models. Would it suck, probably. Models with storm bolters (even painted ones) can still be modified and a conversionist could look at is an opportunity to make unique models. While buffing storm bolters and the chaos equivalent is something I agree with, many don't. The majority of people I think agree that Terminators need a change so that is easier to get people to agree with than the storm bolters change. I think s5 and/or ap4 could work (i favor the combo myself) but I think you would also have to change some other weapons too in order to keep them relevant, which would probably make other changes required as well and so on.
There's only so much you can do with a T4 model that dies at a 16% rate to any wound and costs a small fortune.
I agree with you. But the problem is there is too much low ap high str weapons. And I think we both know no one wants there stuff to get nerfed. Which is understandable. A partial fix would be a bigger drop in points (than their last edition). I still think their biggest problem is they are outshined by other units like bikes and devastor centurions. I use those for comparison because they are probably the closest comparison units. Bikes are better primarily because they have superior speed and mobility. The t5 and jink saves help too. And they come in at a lower price point. The advantage of dev cents is they have superior firepower as well. While they do have less mobility, their increased durability and weapon range make up for it. I see terminators and I am just not afraid of them. I know I can easily avoid them most of the time or in the rare chance I actually have to engage them I know my command bike squad will tear them apart before the captain/chapter master in the bike squad even charges them, or I just feed them a low point unit that will most likely keep them tied up long enough for them to not matter (low point for space marines).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yep. They could give Terminators Strength D melee weapons that strike on initiative (with an appropriate point cost hike...) and they still would die at an alarming rate.
Possibly the ultimate thing they can do for terminators is bring back the option spam of older editions. Let us completely customize them to be the Jack-of-all-Trades problem solver we know they can be. Buy more wounds, buy an even better armor save, buy re-rollable 2+/5+ saves, buy invuln upgrades, buy tactical nuclear weapons, buy personal teleporters, buy void shields, buy jump packs, buy Toughness upgrades, buy Strength upgrades, buy buy buy. Turn it into a total Pay-to-Win unit. The catch is... the more you invest into them, the louder your curses when you roll a 1.
I don't think they need str D, but I think making them more like command squads is a valid idea. I think if they were more like a command squad and maybe had a one time use teleporter at either their current price point or maybe a lesser price point with most likely a points drop in their options as well they would become viable again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/12 19:19:06
Twinkle, Twinkle little star.
I ran over your Wave Serpents with my car.
Actually relevant, and why this idea can't be used.
NorseSig wrote: Models with storm bolters (even painted ones) can still be modified and a conversionist could look at is an opportunity to make unique models.
Doesn't make it okay in the slightest.
NorseSig wrote: While buffing storm bolters and the chaos equivalent is something I agree with, many don't.
They have no grounds to object. It needs to happened, and it otherer weapons need buffs too as a result, hand 'em over!
Don't believe me? It's all in the numbers.
Number 1: That's terror.
Number 2: That's terror.
Dark Angels/Angels of Vengeance combo - ???? - Input wanted!
Ya know this being back. i honestly think a simple "they are veterans" approach would be better.
They may fire special issue ammo from storm bolters or other bolter weapons and or let them take combi weapons and can take two special or heavy weapons per 5.
thats plenty of useful shooting.
Assault terminators are...... ok? honestly dont got anything for this one since most of the time they often have tank characters.
i feel a better use of Space marine teleport homers would be more interesting.
kinda like the BA come in and assault formation
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/12 19:51:50
CrashGordon94 wrote: Yes, it would be a bad idea to give them Heavy Bolters/Flamers default, they have bloody Storm Bolters modeled onto them already, you can't just can't change that without screwing over all those models!
The better solution is to buff the Storm Bolter itself, I already posted a buffed one and you could give it S5 and/or AP4 on top. Of course this indirectly means the Heavy Bolter getting a buff but that's not too relevant here.
I posted a buffed stormbolter idea too, but it didn't even get considered. Its just the way things go.
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
On a side note there is no need to be hostile towards anyone. I am not insulting you or otherwise putting you down. I am not even disagreeing with you.
And I never said it would be okay to do this.
It was nothing more than a suggestion.
This is after all a discussion thread. I am not someone who immediately dismisses an idea. I like to think about it and discuss the pros and cons of the idea. One of the problems I often see in these threads is everyone thinks their idea is the only right way to solve a problem and refuse to consider or even discuss the pros and cons of other people's ideas.
Twinkle, Twinkle little star.
I ran over your Wave Serpents with my car.
One of the problems I often see in these threads is everyone thinks their idea is the only right way to solve a problem and refuse to consider or even discuss the pros and cons of other people's ideas.
Well some, not everyone. I follow threads that attempt to address bad aspects of the rules and unit imbalance, and by and large I've found they're fairly constructive. You often dive in with an idea and end up modifying it based on responses or other's suggestions. Or you get agreement and you know you know you're on track....or it becomes apparent it's a terrible idea and you drop it
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/10/12 22:35:27
Desubot wrote:
They may fire special issue ammo from storm bolters or other bolter weapons
This actually came up in a previous thread, the guy had profiles for it and all.
DoomShakaLaka wrote:I posted a buffed stormbolter idea too, but it didn't even get considered. Its just the way things go.
Think I missed it, could you link?
NorseSig wrote:I mentioned it because YOU brought it up.
Nope, never said a word about GW's habits here.
NorseSig wrote:This is after all a discussion thread. I am not someone who immediately dismisses an idea. I like to think about it and discuss the pros and cons of the idea. One of the problems I often see in these threads is everyone thinks their idea is the only right way to solve a problem and refuse to consider or even discuss the pros and cons of other people's ideas.
The Heavy Bolter thing is a horrible idea which SHOULD be dismissed. It would serve to completely screw over anyone with an older model.
Don't believe me? It's all in the numbers.
Number 1: That's terror.
Number 2: That's terror.
Dark Angels/Angels of Vengeance combo - ???? - Input wanted!
Well some, not everyone. I follow threads that attempt to address bad aspects of the rules and unit imbalance, and by and large I've found they're fairly constructive. You often dive in with an idea and end up modifying it based on responses or other's suggestions. Or you get agreement and you know you know you're on track....or it becomes apparent it's a terrible idea and you drop it
You are correct I should not have said everyone, but I have noticed a good portion of our community as a whole does this (not just dakka).
To a degree I think you are correct.
Twinkle, Twinkle little star.
I ran over your Wave Serpents with my car.
CrashGordon94 wrote: The Heavy Bolter thing is a horrible idea which SHOULD be dismissed. It would serve to completely screw over anyone with an older model.
Likewise, I don't think the answer is buffing a weapon even other marines can take. Storm bolters are already better than Bolters as Terminators are better than Marines and twice the cost. The unit feels like a "double" troop choice. They rapid fire twice as far, they cost twice as much, they have twice the armor, even twice the heavy weapon selections if you take a squad of 10. Theoretically, with their invuln save, their deep strike power, relentless, and power weapons, they're already decently priced. So why does it all fall flat? Because of AP2 weapons making them have HALF the wounds.
So as a compromise, they need both firepower and durability. Firepower they are already close... tactical squads can bring two meltas or two plasmas, so Termies should double that to four or more. Having every Terminator able to take plasmas, meltas, and heavy bolters as an upgrade would make them useful. They should also have access to Lascannons, Missile Launchers, and other upgrades that tacticals can bring instead of just the Heavy Flamer and Reaper Autocannon. Bringing two of those per squad would be great. Essentially, make them what they already are -- a double strength tactical squad.
But then there's the durability problem. Having twice the firepower is worse than having two tactical squads if they die so easily to AP weapons. Personally, I think Grey Knight Paladins are Terminators done right. They have twice the wounds and an upgraded Toughness. If you're going to double everything, then double EVERYTHING. They even get great invuln saves by taking storm shields.
Currently, there's no reason to take Terminators because two Tactical Squads will have more firepower, more wounds, and cost about the same in points. That's a problem. Centurions are the only real Terminators.
It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately.
Likewise, I don't think the answer is buffing a weapon even other marines can take.
And don't end up doing so due to them being considered so bad.
Don't believe me? It's all in the numbers.
Number 1: That's terror.
Number 2: That's terror.
Dark Angels/Angels of Vengeance combo - ???? - Input wanted!
Likewise, I don't think the answer is buffing a weapon even other marines can take.
And don't end up doing so due to them being considered so bad.
Rhinos already have them and anyone who wants to assault into combat should be getting one. They can rapid fire from 24" out and still close into combat if the enemy is closer than that. They are superior to bolters easily. Any better and they'd be on the level of Heavy Bolters, which I should remind you are a Heavy weapon choice. Next we're buffing those too and so on so on until every weapon is stronger just because you feel anti-infantry weapons are weak. These Storm Bolters are my bane as a Chaos player and I wish I had their utility myself, being such a close combat oriented faction. Assault 2 or Rapid Fire... not a hard call at all.
It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately.
Likewise, I don't think the answer is buffing a weapon even other marines can take.
And don't end up doing so due to them being considered so bad.
Rhinos already have them and anyone who wants to assault into combat should be getting one. They can rapid fire from 24" out and still close into combat if the enemy is closer than that. They are superior to bolters easily. Any better and they'd be on the level of Heavy Bolters, which I should remind you are a Heavy weapon choice. Next we're buffing those too and so on so on until every weapon is stronger just because you feel anti-infantry weapons are weak. These Storm Bolters are my bane as a Chaos player and I wish I had their utility myself, being such a close combat oriented faction. Assault 2 or Rapid Fire... not a hard call at all.
TBF Heavy Bolters suck ass.
CrashGordon94 wrote:Think I missed it, could you link?
Martel732 wrote: S4 shooting is still too weak. They need heavy bolters at a minimum. I don't care about the sculpts.
What if it was something like the new tau firewarrior guns where the strength and ap get better the closer they are.
My proposed stormbolter profile
At 24" S4 ap5 assault 2
At 12" S5 ap4 assault 2
At 6" S6 ap3 assault 2
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/12 22:15:33
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
Noted, but they're better than Gravs against Orks. They're also S5/AP4, which is what he wants Storm Bolters to be.
Rather than comparing all your weapons to the Eldar book, realize the Storm Bolter is an amazing weapon on its own. Termies have other problems, like a lack of Special/Heavy choices.
It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately.
The storm bolter is NOT an amazing weapon. It's terrible for the price you pay in this case. As a 5 pt add on to a tank, its okay, but as the main weapon on a 35 pt model? NOPE.
Noted, but they're better than Gravs against Orks. They're also S5/AP4, which is what he wants Storm Bolters to be.
Rather than comparing all your weapons to the Eldar book, realize the Storm Bolter is an amazing weapon on its own. Termies have other problems, like a lack of Special/Heavy choices.
No the Storm Bolter is NOT an amazing weapon. At all. It is strictly underwhelming in all circumstances.
And how is it fair to say that the Heavy Bolter does better than grav against its ideal target? Grav is SUPPOSED to be a heavy armor killer, and Heavy Bolters are supposed to be a horde killer. The difference is one of these actually does its job.
Ninja'd by the blood angel
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/12 22:19:57
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
Martel732 wrote: The storm bolter is NOT an amazing weapon. It's terrible for the price you pay in this case. As a 5 pt add on to a tank, its okay, but as the main weapon on a 35 pt model? NOPE.
See above post... they're basically x2 tacticals. The storm bolter is the price of wound models, the special/heavy weapons should be a Terminator's real firepower. This even used to be the case in older editions, I have no idea why they gutted the weapon selection. Buffing Storm Bolters would only further invalidate Terminators and make Bike squads the only thing anyone plays.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DoomShakaLaka wrote: No the Storm Bolter is NOT an amazing weapon. At all. It is strictly underwhelming in all circumstances.
When was the last time you cracked open a codex that wasn't your own? You might not find it amazing with all your other weapon options at this point, but it's better than you believe it to be.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/12 22:23:44
It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately.
Martel732 wrote: The storm bolter is NOT an amazing weapon. It's terrible for the price you pay in this case. As a 5 pt add on to a tank, its okay, but as the main weapon on a 35 pt model? NOPE.
. Buffing Storm Bolters would only further invalidate Terminators and make Bike squads the only thing anyone plays.
I'm not following this logic. Bikes don't have stormbolters.
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
I think because the cost differential and lack of firepower differential makes the bike a better choice in all cases. The twin linked boltgun has more firepower up close and only somewhat less at 13-24".
DoomShakaLaka wrote: I'm not following this logic. Bikes don't have stormbolters.
Maybe not in YOUR codex. There's more than just the basic Space Marines. Which is another point... tons of special Storm Bolters exist on special characters. Theirs are S4, your troops have S5. Totally makes sense.
Again, venture outside your own codex guys. You'll be surprised how puny the weapons in other factions are. (Not Eldar. Or Tau. Or Necrons.)
It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately.
Yes indeed, buffing the Storm Bolter and Heavy Bolter. Both are weak and in need of it. Would "knock-on" to the Heavy Stubber, maybe the Assault Cannon too, that's about it.
Martel732 wrote: S4 shooting is still too weak. They need heavy bolters at a minimum. I don't care about the sculpts.
What if it was something like the new tau firewarrior guns where the strength and ap get better the closer they are.
My proposed stormbolter profile
At 24" S4 ap5 assault 2
At 12" S5 ap4 assault 2
At 6" S6 ap3 assault 2
Ah right, that.
I think the reason is was passed up was just because of the complexity, most of all.
Don't believe me? It's all in the numbers.
Number 1: That's terror.
Number 2: That's terror.
Dark Angels/Angels of Vengeance combo - ???? - Input wanted!
DoomShakaLaka wrote: I'm not following this logic. Bikes don't have stormbolters.
Maybe not in YOUR codex. There's more than just the basic Space Marines. Which is another point... tons of special Storm Bolters exist on special characters. Theirs are S4, your troops have S5. Totally makes sense.
Again, venture outside your own codex guys. You'll be surprised how puny the weapons in other factions are. (Not Eldar. Or Tau. Or Necrons.)
Actually I think Imperial weapons are some of the worst in the game. Even Orks have a better gun than the boltgun. ORKS.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/12 22:49:23
DoomShakaLaka wrote: I'm not following this logic. Bikes don't have stormbolters.
Maybe not in YOUR codex. There's more than just the basic Space Marines. Which is another point... tons of special Storm Bolters exist on special characters. Theirs are S4, your troops have S5. Totally makes sense.
Again, venture outside your own codex guys. You'll be surprised how puny the weapons in other factions are. (Not Eldar. Or Tau. Or Necrons.)
Why wouldn't they be changed as well? Why are you assuming that we wouldn't change them?
Instead of saying "read more codices" please give some examples of what your talking about.
Edit:
I have a sneaking suspicion you play Chaos marines.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/12 22:50:44
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
Leave storm bolters alone. Give terminators real weapons. Done. It's simple. It's effective. Start with heavy bolters, and if that doesn't cut it, go to assault cannons or autocannons.
Was it due to me outright saying "These Storm Bolters are my bane as a Chaos player" about ten posts ago? Anyhow, might want to check on the Ravenwing bikers. The answer was Dark Angels.
You're finding weapons weak so the answer is change everything. All because Storm Bolters don't make sense on Terminators. Instead of just fixing Terminators and giving them access to heavier weapons... and when the Heavy Bolter is brought up, that doesn't work because you want your models to stay the same... Nope, we have to change a weapon that is already Assault 2 into a mini Heavy Bolter without the Heavy.
S4 AP6 Assault 2, 18" - Ork Shoota Boys
S4 AP5 Rapid Fire 24" - The guys with twice the ballistic skill
Tell you what, here's your fixed Storm Bolter. Free of charge.
Storm Bolter - Rapid Fire - 24" - S5, AP4
Nerfed for non-Terminators, but stronger to compensate. Relentless Terminators don't care about the Rapid Fire. Ravenwing Bikers rejoice because they don't either.
I already suggested fixes to Termies above that would more than make up for your perceived weakness of their default weapon. The entirety was dismissed by saying Storm Bolters suck. You guys want to focus so much on Storm Bolters, be my guest, but name the topic appropriately next time. Bad enough you hijacked a Termy thread and turned it into a buff Storm Bolters thread.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/12 23:08:43
It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately.
master of ordinance wrote: The Lasgun.
The Hellgun.
The sodding Hellpistol.
The Imperial Guard Shotgun.
The list goes on
Yes, yes we are all aware IG sucks. I've posted ideas in the 'fix IG' threads that would help them, although I haven't gotten around to coming up with a fix to hellguns.
You're finding weapons weak so the answer is change everything. All because Storm Bolters don't make sense on Terminators. Instead of just fixing Terminators and giving them access to heavier weapons... and when the Heavy Bolter is brought up, that doesn't work because you want your models to stay the same... Nope, we have to change a weapon that is already Assault 2 into a mini Heavy Bolter without the Heavy.
The arms race is on. The old standby weapons simply don't measure up anymore. I don't have a problem with them having heavy bolters..at all. That is other people in the thread. I was merely suggesting some buffs to stormbolters, because they suck accross the board, and they already have them.
Your proposed profile seems good to me, except its actually a kick in the nuts to SoB and the goofy guardsman that equipped it.
Irony intentional
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/12 23:21:13
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
But the IG suck less per point spent than tactical terminators. Especially against the almighty scatterlaser. A weapon that terminators are supposed to be good against. THAT'S irony.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/12 23:23:25
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