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One, or more of the following:

1. Let them choose to Shoot OR Assault out of deepstrike.

2. Give them 2 wounds, like paladins.

3. Give their sergeant 2W, and some ability, like the exarchs.

4. Let them attack with power fist at initative.

5. Let them get a Land Raider for 150 points.

6. Let them have an in-game teleport-effect. Letting them deepstrike from the table to the table, quickly repositioning them.

7. Give them Heavy Flamer and Assault cannon for free.

8. Give them 2 cyclone missiles per 5 terminators, for free, and with AA version of strenght 6.

9. Give them feel no pain 5+. They should basically be immune to small arms fire anyway.

Sorry people but I could not help but notice that you asked for inferior weapons to the Stormbolter....
I was only trying to help!

 master of ordinance wrote:
Sorry people but I could not help but notice that you asked for inferior weapons to the Stormbolter....
I was only trying to help!

But you didn't list anything actually inferior. You have to take points into account, or else terminators wouldn't be in a bad place to begin with.

Stormtroopers. You can preach bad guns on bad units which are expensive after you have used 14 point 'Not Marines' with 18" S 3 guns.
The Lasguns cheapness does not make up for its pathetic stats either.
Besides, I thought that you just wanted guns with inferior stats (which all those do).

Martel732 wrote:
Leave storm bolters alone. Give terminators real weapons. Done. It's simple. It's effective. Start with heavy bolters, and if that doesn't cut it, go to assault cannons or autocannons.

Or better yet, buff a weapon that needs buffing so that people don't have to change loads and loads of models, fixing both a problematic weapon AND ones of the issues with a problematic unit, one that needs some focus as fixing it also fixes its relative issues compared to a related unit.

The Storm Bolter needs some focus because:
1) It's also seen as bad on other stuff (people don't seem keen to stick it on vehicles that can take it, for one. And it's not seen as an attractive option for squads that can have it)
2) Changing the default weapon screws up all those models, so that idea is a complete non-option.
3) Heavy Weapon spam would be too unbalanced in the opposite direction.
4) While buffs to the melee and durability stuff are also needed, not giving their shooting some attention too would just keep funneling people over to the Assault-focused variety, leaving the shooty ones in the dust.

IG problems don't need focus because that's off-topic.

Will look over triplegrim's suggestions in the morning.

Crash I dont care about the sculpts. GK need a buffed stormbolter like eldar need more s6 shooting

And you are 100% wrong to not care about the sculpts.
It's not okay to just screw over peoples' collections like that, if you don't care that's a problem with you and your attitude to the whole thing.

It's not screwing anyone over. Just add a few bits and you're done. Or don't.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:They should make cyclones different to normal heavy weapons, you can take a heavy weapon per 5, and a cyclone per 5 men, the cyclones can fire at full bs at a different target, they have sky fire and interceptor also (this shot is outside the normal squad, so if it intercepts on your opponents turn, only the cyclone cannot fire in the termies player turn).

The cyclone also has monster hunter and tank hunter.

Also, I'd go back to the old school... No assault and tactical terminators, mix them back in.

Sounds reasonable enough, I suppose. Might be worth tweaking, but not hitting me as a bad idea. I have my doubts about the Interceptor bit, maybe leave that out.

Might be overkill, but it might not.

That I'm absolutely behind, just set 'em up like Deathwing (they're "Tactical" by default but you can swap the weapons for a pair of Lightning Claws for free and TH/SS for 10 points)!

Martel732 wrote:There's only so much you can do with a T4 model that dies at a 16% rate to any wound and costs a small fortune.

Spoiler:

Yeah, but that much could be enough. Also T5 and/or re-rollable Armor are on the table too.

I can't believe I missed this post because its absolutely


T5 would totally work, and rerollable 2+ armor saves are nothing to sneeze at. I say pick one of those, and buff the shooting a little bit and you've got a unit thats actually good.

Also that was a perfectly used video clip. IMO No offense Martel, but it was funny

2+ rerollable would at least make the Eldar move their WK over to stomp a mudhole in your terminators. With T5, the scatterbikes would just LOLZ you to death from 36" away still.

Martel732 wrote:
2+ rerollable would at least make the Eldar move their WK over to stomp a mudhole in your terminators. With T5, the scatterbikes would just LOLZ you to death from 36" away still.

This is probably true.


So I'm thinking 2+ rerollable armor saves.



Somewhere before I had an idea to boost the standard 5+ invul from termie armor to a 3+ and then make a stormshield let you reroll failed invul saves.


Then make Stormbolters Range 36" Rapid Fire S5 ap4.

Now they are scary oooOOOHHHH


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Stormtroopers. You can preach bad guns on bad units which are expensive after you have used 14 point 'Not Marines' with 18" S 3 guns.
The Lasguns cheapness does not make up for its pathetic stats either.
Besides, I thought that you just wanted guns with inferior stats (which all those do).

Don't worry Master of Ordinance, I have LOTS of ideas to help fix guard. I would never forget about you guys. One thread at a time though.

How about instead of S5 AP4 36", make them special issue ammo for terminators? That gives tac terminators desperately needed versatility, and doesn't buff armies like GK. Who should get nothing. Ever.

 Arkaine wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I'm not following this logic. Bikes don't have stormbolters.

Maybe not in YOUR codex. There's more than just the basic Space Marines. Which is another point... tons of special Storm Bolters exist on special characters. Theirs are S4, your troops have S5. Totally makes sense.

Again, venture outside your own codex guys. You'll be surprised how puny the weapons in other factions are. (Not Eldar. Or Tau. Or Necrons.)

 Arkaine wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I have a sneaking suspicion you play Chaos marines.

Was it due to me outright saying "These Storm Bolters are my bane as a Chaos player" about ten posts ago? Anyhow, might want to check on the Ravenwing bikers. The answer was Dark Angels.

First of all, you might want to check Ravenwing bikers, as they don't have storm bolters. No bikers do (I mean, maybe they do in "YOUR codex"). Second of all, decide what you actually want to argue; you say that "the Storm Bolter is an amazing weapon on its own" (therefore, Terminators do not have a lack in firepower due to having "amazing" weapons), but you also say "If you want to give them dakka, they simply need better weapons than something common infantry carry". What "common infantry"? Are you referring to Sergeants? If you are, then you really need to realise that a single model having a few extra S4 shots in a squad full of S4 shooters is not substantial. You should also realise that being a doubled-up version of something else is not really a battlefield role, or at all interesting. If we wanted twice the Tactical Marines, we'd take twice the Tactical Marines (that said, they actually don't have twice the firepower at all, just a range advantage). What we want is our beloved, iconic units living up to what we love them for. Even if we ignore the modelling concerns, storm bolters should be changed because they are an iconic Terminator weapon.

Your logic does not follow at all, nor does it lend itself to any kind of coherent argument; you are simultaneously saying that Terminators have enough firepower and that they also don't.
My guess is that you are so opposing the concept of buffing storm bolters because Chaos Terminators don't have them. Well, do you know what that means? Buff combi-bolters, too. It's really very simple.

Let's break down the issues. Durability is another concern (I'm in favour of T5, myself), so we'll just talk shooting. Bear in mind, I do not approve of the S5 approach at all, nor Rending or whatever. I just want it to have more shots, maybe through Salvo so their Relentless is useful.

"Tactical" Terminators lack firepower. They come with storm bolters by default. There are three possible solutions to this:
- Give Terminator armour some special unique rule that allows models to fire their storm bolters more effectively. I very much dislike this approach, even if it is "neater" compared to a flat buff to the weapon itself.
- Give Terminators full access to more powerful weapons; the heavy bolter, the assault cannon, the reaper autocannon, and others, thereby removing the crappy storm bolter entirely. See "iconic".
- Buff their default weapon, the storm bolter and combi-bolter. This effects things other than Tactical/Chaos Terminators; Sergeants and Aspiring Champions mostly, as well as a few Sisters of Battle and many Imperial vehicles that take it as an upgrade. The Grey Knights have their unique, wrist-mounted storm bolter - make it actually unique and give it its own profile. The vehicle-mounted ones are only taken to protect another weapon from Weapon Destroyed, and their offensive power is a joke. Sisters can take them, yeah, but they don't. What does that tell you?

So, what do we do? Clearly many people are in favour of buffing the storm bolter alongside the Terminator, even if we disagree on how exactly this can be done. Some might say T5 Terminators with Salvo 3/5 storm bolters, while others might say 3+ FNP Terminators with Assault 4 storm bolters. The point is that these threads keep going this way for a reason, as I said previously. Neither piece of the whole is good at what it is supposed to be. Their armour isn't strong enough and their guns aren't powerful enough. Why are we not allowed to make both better?

Anyway, I've long been a supporter of T5. I don't like the re-rollable armour save as it's just weird and would be unique to them, which is not good. Really, just give them FNP; it's the existing "extra save" rule. I forget what I made my storm bolters, though (I have a very, very long list of rule changes I want to make, so much so that I'm actually just going to print my own rulebooks for my friends and I to use).

EDIT: We really shouldn't balance anything against scatterbikes. Sure, "scatterbikes are the meta" or whatever, but if we're in the realm where houserules are acceptable, we should be thinking of balancing scatterbikes, too, not bringing things up to their level. That's a bad road to tread.

T5 is useless man. Especially on a one wound model. Eldar will still gak all over you trivially. And grav. And rending. I could go on.

Martel732 wrote:
How about instead of S5 AP4 36", make them special issue ammo for terminators? That gives tac terminators desperately needed versatility, and doesn't buff armies like GK. Who should get nothing. Ever.

I'm not getting the whole anti-Gk thing, but sure that could work.


You know what you literally don't have to change the profile or anything if you give them SIA, just add the rule to their profile. It replaces whatever profile the gun originally had when its used. No need to re-write it or anything.

The GK have so much karma for 5th ed to pay back. Also, they are one of the few good matchups for BA by pure chance. No buffs for them. GK are better against the field, but BA and run away and shoot them with grav! Victory for the coward angels!

Martel732 wrote:
The GK have so much karma for 5th ed to pay back. Also, they are one of the few good matchups for BA by pure chance. No buffs for them. GK are better against the field, but BA and run away and shoot them with grav! Victory for the coward angels!

Thats hardly a legitimate reason.

Why not buff GK AND Blood Angels.

Starting with the Blood Angels shooting phase, and giving them all the regular psychic disciplines. Good grief GW is stupid

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The GK have so much karma for 5th ed to pay back. Also, they are one of the few good matchups for BA by pure chance. No buffs for them. GK are better against the field, but BA and run away and shoot them with grav! Victory for the coward angels!

Thats hardly a legitimate reason.

Why not buff GK AND Blood Angels.

Starting with the Blood Angels shooting phase, and giving them all the regular psychic disciplines. Good grief.

I'm half joking. Or maybe two-thirds joking. Or maybe one-third joking. I really hate the mary-sue Grey Knights. Worse than any Xeno faction or even Chaos. Because BA can understand wanting to get bloody from time to time. The GKs are sticks in the mud with a stick up their power armor. Draigo being not remotely a fair model doesn't help either.

If there were a supplement where Dante led the BA against the GK for being general fethtards, I would buy it in a heartbeat.

Martel732 wrote:
T5 is useless man. Especially on a one wound model. Eldar will still gak all over you trivially. And grav. And rending. I could go on.

We really shouldn't balance anything against scatterbikes. Sure, "scatterbikes are the meta" or whatever, but if we're in the realm where houserules are acceptable, we should be thinking of balancing scatterbikes, too, not bringing things up to their level. That's a bad road to tread.

You could go on, yes, but that'd be missing the point. We shouldn't say "Terminators need 2++ and 20 Hull Points and 2+ Reanimation Protocols" because Eldar and Necrons exist. The state of the game is not good, and the whole point of fixing rules is to, well, fix them rather than allow broken rules to spread their brokenness throughout the rest of the game.

If everything is broken, nothing is broken.

As I said, T5 is useless on a terminator for multiple reasons. It just hoses IG a little more, which is about the last thing we need.

Martel732 wrote:
If everything is broken, nothing is broken.

Well, have fun in your game where every single model has 10s in every stat and costs 35ppm, so effectively everything in the game is resolved on 4+. Sure, that'd be balance.

Martel732 wrote:
As I said, T5 is useless on a terminator for multiple reasons.

Nurgle Terminators disprove this. If the T5 was standard, it'd help. Sure, they wouldn't be invincible, but they don't need to be.

Nurgle terminators are crap. What are you talking about?

Martel732 wrote:
Nurgle terminators are crap. What are you talking about?

Nurgle Terminators MIGHT be good with T6 though I think is the point he's trying to make.

Maybe.

triplegrim wrote:One, or more of the following:
1. Let them choose to Shoot OR Assault out of deepstrike.

Certainly, honestly I'd say it should be a game-wide thing with some adjustment, but that would be another discussion.

triplegrim wrote:One, or more of the following:
2. Give them 2 wounds, like paladins.

I can dig it.

triplegrim wrote:One, or more of the following:
3. Give their sergeant 2W, and some ability, like the exarchs.

Definitely, along with letting them at least choose which Power Weapon they have, if not just giving them access to the Terminator Weapons list.

triplegrim wrote:One, or more of the following:
4. Let them attack with power fist at initative.

That would be a little bonkers unless it was conditional somehow.

triplegrim wrote:One, or more of the following:
5. Let them get a Land Raider for 150 points.

The LR family seems like it just needs a general points drop, not just as DTs for Termies.
150 might be a bit low though.

triplegrim wrote:One, or more of the following:
6. Let them have an in-game teleport-effect. Letting them deepstrike from the table to the table, quickly repositioning them.

A bit odd, but could work.

triplegrim wrote:One, or more of the following:
7. Give them Heavy Flamer and Assault cannon for free.

NOPE
Free Heavy Weapons would be utterly ridiculous and OP.

triplegrim wrote:One, or more of the following:
8. Give them 2 cyclone missiles per 5 terminators

2 Heavies per 5 in general would be good.

triplegrim wrote:One, or more of the following:
for free

NOPE, for previously stated reason.

triplegrim wrote:One, or more of the following:
and with AA version of strenght 6.

I can dig it, maybe as a separate upgrade a la Flakk Missiles for the standard missile launcher.

triplegrim wrote:One, or more of the following:
9. Give them feel no pain 5+. They should basically be immune to small arms fire anyway.

Eh, not too sold on it to be honest but I won't discount it.

Martel732 wrote:It's not screwing anyone over. Just add a few bits and you're done. Or don't.

It absolutely is screwing people over! "adding a few bits" is an understatement, that would require cutting up and replacing the guns on MANY models. Some people have loads of them.

DoomShakaLaka wrote:T5 would totally work, and rerollable 2+ armor saves are nothing to sneeze at. I say pick one of those, and buff the shooting a little bit and you've got a unit thats actually good.

Also that was a perfectly used video clip. IMO No offense Martel, but it was funny

Indeed. I will say that rerollable 2+ needs the ITC style restriction (reroll is 4+), though.

Thank you!

Martel732 wrote:2+ rerollable would at least make the Eldar move their WK over to stomp a mudhole in your terminators. With T5, the scatterbikes would just LOLZ you to death from 36" away still.

A couple things:
1) Not everything in the game is a Scatterbike, stop obsessing over them. In fact, just take this to a relevant thread and leave it there.
2) It would absolutely make a difference to Scatter Lasers, in fact it makes a difference to everything but Grav, Poisoned, Sniper S2, S7, S10 and Destroyer. A reaonable list of thing, but just think about all the stuff that DOESN'T include! S1 can no longer hurt them, S3-6 have a harder time wounding and S8/9 no longer cause Instant Death.

DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Somewhere before I had an idea to boost the standard 5+ invul from termie armor to a 3+ and then make a stormshield let you reroll failed invul saves.

It was actually standard invul to 4++ and Storm Shields letting you re-roll THAT.
3++ standard with SS rereoll would be nuts!

DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Then make Stormbolters Range 36" Rapid Fire S5 ap4.

Now they are scary oooOOOHHHH

Not a good plan, range is too much and Rapid Fire ain't a good choice.
I went with Salvo 2/4 since they're supposed be basically two Boltguns (I'm reserving the "literally two Bolters fired as one weapon" idea for Combi-Bolters), I made up the Closing Shot rule so infantry using it without Relentless/SnP wouldn't be screwed over. It would effectively be Assault 2 on the move and Assault 4 standing still.
Though I'm open to other profiles (for instance Salvo 2/3 might be better, or possibly Assault 3).
I will also admit I'm personally not sold on S5 or AP4 for them, but I'll try and keep an open mind.

Martel732 wrote:How about instead of S5 AP4 36", make them special issue ammo for terminators? That gives tac terminators desperately needed versatility, and doesn't buff armies like GK. Who should get nothing. Ever.

Special ammo is a good idea and one of two real options for it. It's either buffing the SB or special ammo.
Your grudge against GK though... They're actually subpar right now and in need of some help.
There's no such thing as "karma" for armies either. Just because you hate an army doesn't mean you get to say it should suck. I hate Blood Angels and Space Wolves, but I don't want them to be weak because of that.

Martel732 wrote:If everything is broken, nothing is broken.

No, if everything is broken then everything is broken (duh!) and you end up with a horrible mess of a game.
Scatterbikes are not the standard, never use them as such.

There's no logic behind making storm bolters S5 or AP4. he heavy bolter is already S5 AP4, so either way you'd be either making an inferior heavy bolter (pointless) or relegating the heavy bolter (undesireable). SB's are a double barreled bolter, so they fire the same shells at the same velocity. They should have twice the Rate of Fire. That's the only thing they need. They're not supposed to be big monster slayers, they're bullet hoses for thinning down hordes. Neither are terminators supposed to be on par with devs or centurion devs firepower wise. Firepower is the speciality of those units and it's why they're in the codex. If you want firepower you leave your terminators at home and take devs. If you want decent cc ability, supreme staying power with some fire support you take tactical termiantors. So on this front their durability is the only thing that needs addressing, and as mentioned it will indirectly make them deadlier in cc, and therefore not ignorable.

What would people think about giving them a 1+ armour, effectively giving them a 2+ armour that is only pent rated by the most powerful weapons (melta, and a few other rare occurences

danny1995 wrote:
What would people think about giving them a 1+ armour, effectively giving them a 2+ armour that is only pent rated by the most powerful weapons (melta, and a few other rare occurences

That doesn't actually fix the problem they have so no.

@Chimp: I do see what you mean, and that's why I'm reluctant to give S5 or AP4. And why Salvo 2/4 (or perhaps Salvo 2/3 or Assault 3) was the biggest one I was pushing for (alongside a special rule if it becomes Salvo so non-Relentless/SnP peeps are screwed over).
I would say that when buffing the SB's rate of fire I'd also do it to the HB, aside from "outrunning" the Storm Bolter's new profile it also seems to need a big rate of fire boost of its own. I was thinking Salvo 3/6 (though I might go for 3/5, 4/5 or 4/6. I'm much less sure about this one) and Pinning. As a side effect, if the Storm Bolter WAS made S5 AP4 it still wouldn't outclass the Heavy Bolter under this scheme! By extension I'd probably give the Heavy Stubber whatever rate of fire the Heavy Bolter got, maybe Pinning but a lot less inclined to hand that to the HS.
While durability along with some mild melee tweaks are needed, firepower needs some attention too as Assault Termies tend to rule over Tactical Termies as of now. Buffing everything but firepower would certainly make Ass-Terms more relevant but would continue to leave Tac-Terms in the dust.
Higher ROF and/or special ammo on the SBs plus 2 Heavy Weapons per 5 guys would probably be enough. Also I'd recommend merging the two varieties Deathwing-style.

danny1995 wrote:
What would people think about giving them a 1+ armour, effectively giving them a 2+ armour that is only pent rated by the most powerful weapons (melta, and a few other rare occurences

That wouldn't be good, nobody really has an issue with Plasma and the like killing Terminators.
The big issues would be:
Enhanced Armor save so massed fire doesn't bring them down quite as trivially.
Better Invulnerable save so it takes more AP1/2 firepower to bring them down (still doable but takes more of it).
Higher Toughness for general durability.

The sad part Crash is that even if you gave terminators all assault cannons for say, 45ppm, they're still inferior to scatterbikes. Just think about that a second.