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But, as pointed out elsewhere, that's because scatterbikes are ludicrously overpowered to the max, not because Terminators with assault cannons are stinky.

give them warp spider in game teleportation 18" with d3 scatter as thier movement option.

bam! they can nearly catch scat bikes.

upgrade storm bolters to be 30" 2/4 salvo twin linked (relentless means they get 4 shots no matter what) double their fire rate and retain twin link.

bam! they can put more wounds on soft targets.

jade_angel wrote:
But, as pointed out elsewhere, that's because scatterbikes are ludicrously overpowered to the max, not because Terminators with assault cannons are stinky.

No, they'd actually be good. And desirable. As opposed to most storm bolters modifications. Higher rate of fire S4 is higher rate of fire fail.

Right, that was my point - assault cannon Terminators are good. Some would argue OP: 20 S6/AP4 shots at 24", with actual Rending as opposed to Bladestorm, at BS4, is no joke! That's a threat to absolutely anything, even AV15 (admittedly, longshot glances, but how much AV15 is there, anyway?) and T10.

Pointing out that something like that is inferior to scatterbikes is not a testament to how underpowered Terminators are, but to how overpowered scatterbikes (and arguably shuricannonbikes) are.

If scatterbikes didn't exist, or were nerfed down to something reasonable, would you still be suggesting that tactical Terminators should have free assault cannons on every model? (I would agree that the storm bolter is underwhelming, though).

jade_angel wrote:
Right, that was my point - assault cannon Terminators are good. Some would argue OP: 20 S6/AP4 shots at 24", with actual Rending as opposed to Bladestorm, at BS4, is no joke! That's a threat to absolutely anything, even AV15 (admittedly, longshot glances, but how much AV15 is there, anyway?) and T10.

Pointing out that something like that is inferior to scatterbikes is not a testament to how underpowered Terminators are, but to how overpowered scatterbikes (and arguably shuricannonbikes) are.

If scatterbikes didn't exist, or were nerfed down to something reasonable, would you still be suggesting that tactical Terminators should have free assault cannons on every model? (I would agree that the storm bolter is underwhelming, though).

My points is that scat bikes DO exist and so all-AC terminator for 45 ppm would not be a crazy thing.

Ok so here is a compilation of all the good ideas for Terminators put into stat form.

Its a little bit different than what I was originally thinking, but let me know if this works for everybody.
150pts (4x Terminators, 1x Terminator Sgt)

Terminator Infantry WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 A2 Ld9 Sv2+4+
Terminator Sgt Infantry (character) WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 A2 Ld9 Sv2+4+

Wargear: Wargear, Terminator Armor*, Power Weapon, Godwyn pattern Stormbolter

Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, Plasma Hardened Armor*

May take up to 5 more Terminators for 30ppm.
Each model may replace its stormbolter or power weapon with a
Lightning claw-2pts
Power fist-2pts
Storm Shield-3pts
Chainfist-7pts
Thunder Hammer-7pts
Up to 2 models per 5 may choose options from the heavy weapons list.
Terminator Armor- Confers a 2+ Armor Save , a 4+ invulnerable save, and the Relentless special rule. Models wearing Terminator Armor may choose to enter the game via Deep Strike following the rules for Deep Strike Reserves. Models Wearing Terminator Armor may never make sweeping advances.
Plasma Hardened Armor- Models with this rule may choose to take invulnerable saves after they failed their armor save. (This is basically that 2+ 4+ from ITC you were talking about)

Godwyn pattern Stormbolter- range 24" S4 ap5 salvo 2/3

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Ok so here is a compilation of all the good ideas for Terminators put into stat form.

Damn near perfect imho. Only thing I'd personally prefer is improved sb stats rather than special ammo, as that would allow sternguard to retain that unique advantage. (Not sure if other models get special issue ammo -Deathwatch perhaps?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

I would say that when buffing the SB's rate of fire I'd also do it to the HB, aside from "outrunning" the Storm Bolter's new profile it also seems to need a big rate of fire boost of its own.

Salvo 2/4 is ideal. You're right in advocating that, rather than Assault 3 as I'd originally suggested, as it would give too much of a boost to power armoured troops (grey knights players would have a field day). & yeson that note heavy bolter needs some love. It's rubbish compared to autocannon and assualt cannons. I'd been thinking Heavy 4 pinning myself.

Okay, coming fro my point of view I do have to say that whilst they are tough buggers to deal with the Terminators need a buff. I feel that some added survivability is really needed but no rerollables or extra wounds. Instead Toughness 5 (to represent the extra ablative plates in the armour) would be a really good start.
Another good option would be to let them take two specialist/heavy weapons per every 5 Terminators. Suddenly they can have a squad of 10 with 4 Assault Cannons or 4 Missile Launchers. Combine this with a slight reduction in the costs of these weapons and suddenly you have an efficient and deadly killing unit that is really tough and can put a lot of firepower downrange.

Doom,
I like what you have there, but it seems a bit all over the board.
Armor stacking with invulns, 2 heavies per 5, and special ammo all for 30ppm is a bit much.

With 2 heavies per 5, you can pick what firepower you want. And how are they swapping out clips in Termie armor? Auto-selectors are plausible, but don't really feel like a Termie thing. That's for Sternjes.

I like the rest of your proposal though.

(Edit - to be clear, I propose: drop Special Issue Ammo, and reduce all CC options by 3ppm)

Martel,
45ppm Ac Termies vs Scatter Bikes has been argued to death. Assuming:
-Eldar player goes second
-Mission is Eternal War
-There are tons of objectives in a low points game
Then Eldar have a chance. Otherwise, its nearly autowin for the Termies.

The bikes can outmaneuver Termies, but the Termies can just sit on objectives all game. Even with ObSec, Wkndriders cannot take an objective from 3 Termies. And while they can whittle down the Termies, they do so far too slowly. Termies outshoot the bikes, and easily do whatever they want.

I think I agree with you guys honestly. The special issue ammunition feels weird in the unit anyways.

I think dropping the cc weapons prices is a good idea too. I'll revise my above post when I get a chance.

Bharring wrote:
Doom,
I like what you have there, but it seems a bit all over the board.
Armor stacking with invulns, 2 heavies per 5, and special ammo all for 30ppm is a bit much.

With 2 heavies per 5, you can pick what firepower you want. And how are they swapping out clips in Termie armor? Auto-selectors are plausible, but don't really feel like a Termie thing. That's for Sternjes.

I like the rest of your proposal though.

(Edit - to be clear, I propose: drop Special Issue Ammo, and reduce all CC options by 3ppm)

Martel,
45ppm Ac Termies vs Scatter Bikes has been argued to death. Assuming:
-Eldar player goes second
-Mission is Eternal War
-There are tons of objectives in a low points game
Then Eldar have a chance. Otherwise, its nearly autowin for the Termies.

The bikes can outmaneuver Termies, but the Termies can just sit on objectives all game. Even with ObSec, Wkndriders cannot take an objective from 3 Termies. And while they can whittle down the Termies, they do so far too slowly. Termies outshoot the bikes, and easily do whatever they want.

Fortunately the Eldar have other OP units as well. I figured you'd show up sooner or later. And they are still inferior to scatbikes regardless of what you try to spin.

Bharring wrote:


Martel,
45ppm Ac Termies vs Scatter Bikes has been argued to death. Assuming:
-Eldar player goes second
-Mission is Eternal War
-There are tons of objectives in a low points game
Then Eldar have a chance. Otherwise, its nearly autowin for the Termies.

The bikes can outmaneuver Termies, but the Termies can just sit on objectives all game. Even with ObSec, Wkndriders cannot take an objective from 3 Termies. And while they can whittle down the Termies, they do so far too slowly. Termies outshoot the bikes, and easily do whatever they want.

Hmm I don't actually think this is true, but let me check.

Assault Cannons are Range 24" Heavy 4 S6 ap4 Rending
Scatter Lasers are Range 36" Heavy 4 S6 ap6

One unit of Terminators with 5 assault cannnons at 45ppm is equal to 225pts.
Lets use 2 units of 4 windriders with Scatter lasers which comes out to 216pts.

For the first Scenario lets pretend that they landed within 24" of unit of windriders and didn't scatter. The massed firepower from all 5 of these cannons will decimate ONE unit of windriders worth half it value. But guess what happens now? The other unit of windriders gets within 36" making sure to stay out of cannon range and shoots them unretaliated for the rest of the game dealing 1.48 unsaved wounds per turn.

Also if the terminators don't manage to get the perfect alpha strike and murderize a windrider squad BOTH squads can come up and fire at the terminators and remove 2.96 45ppm terminators per turn, and there would be NOTHING the terminators could do against it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And of course this is assuming other nasties aren't there to crush the terminators.

How do they manage to stay out of 30" of Termies for 7 turns on a 48"x72" board?

I assumed large numbers of both.

A SL shot has a 10/108 chance of killing a Termie.

On average, that's 54 shots to kill the Termies.

With 4 SLs, that's 16 shots a turn.

Four turns of uninterrupted shooting is possible. But assuming Termies stated on the centerline, they've moved 6 +d6 " per round, or 18+10. So, the Bikes need to be able to back away in one direction 54" to have time to survive.

So the Termies need to deep strike into a corner on the far side of the surviving unit, for the lulz.

Unlikely.

(And that's the optimal MSU setup for them).

Bharring wrote:
How do they manage to stay out of 30" of Termies for 7 turns on a 48"x72" board?

I assumed large numbers of both.

They have a 12" move and the terminators have a 6" one and their guns outrange them by 12" AND they have battle focus.

Its really simple actually. Plus jetbikes ignore terrain

Not that I advocate the 5 AC terminator route, simply stating that it DOES lose to windriders.

They have JSJ, but can't use BF. Better, but not quite the same thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ever had to run down a horse in a barn?

Its doable. Even for little fatso kid-me.

Being faster is huge, but isn't autowin when it comes to positioning.

Bharring wrote:
They have JSJ, but can't use BF. Better, but not quite the same thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ever had to run down a horse in a barn?

Its doable. Even for little fatso kid-me.

Being faster is huge, but isn't autowin when it comes to positioning.

Perhaps, but thats not the point really.

It might be a possibility, but its not the most easily attained possibility or the most likely.

If the Eldar players was stupid and had all 8 windriders in one squad you'd have a better chance, but the more likely scenario is that they will be using MSU units of 3 or 4.

I think the board would start feeling a lot smaller if you ever did try it.

At any rate, yeah, for the most part I like your ideas.

Bharring wrote:
I think the board would start feeling a lot smaller if you ever did try it.

At any rate, yeah, for the most part I like your ideas.

That would require me playing Eldar which I can't stand because I don't like elf factions (call me weird) so its not likely.

The only reason I've even read the codex is because my friend is weird and he only buys/collects the codexes and other books to read.



Anyways for anyone that didn't see it I am reposting my draft for fixing Terminators. If anyone has any objections PLEASE state them now. Hopefully everyone in the thread agreed on something, and we can implementing the rules for playtesting to see if they need reworking.

150pts (4x Terminators, 1x Terminator Sgt)

Terminator Infantry WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 A2 Ld9 Sv2+4+
Terminator Sgt Infantry (character) WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 A2 Ld9 Sv2+4+

Wargear: Wargear, Terminator Armor*, Power Weapon, Godwyn pattern Stormbolter

Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, Plasma Hardened Armor*

May take up to 5 more Terminators for 30ppm.
Each model may replace its stormbolter or power weapon with a
Lightning claw-2pts
Power fist-5pts
Storm Shield-3pts
Chainfist-7pts
Thunder Hammer-7pts
Up to 2 models per 5 may choose options from the heavy weapons list.
Terminator Armor- Confers a 2+ Armor Save , a 4+ invulnerable save, and the Relentless special rule. Models wearing Terminator Armor may choose to enter the game via Deep Strike following the rules for Deep Strike Reserves. Models Wearing Terminator Armor may never make sweeping advances.
Plasma Hardened Armor- Models with this rule may choose to take invulnerable saves after they failed their armor save.

Godwyn pattern Stormbolter- range 24" S4 ap5 salvo 2/3

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:



Anyways for anyone that didn't see it I am reposting my draft for fixing Terminators.

Absolutely spot on. I'll happily use those rules. Puts the T back in "terminator" without being OTT or imbalanced. Thanks & well done.

One small thing -I've not done the maths, but is the upgrade from power weapon to fist too cheap?
Not that'd I'd choose to take 5 fists (because I'll either suffer "first strike" casualties vs good melee units due to unwieldy, and vs weaker combatants 10 or 15 pf attacks is usually overkill) So sword and mace would remain viable using your proposed weapon costs, but the axe is kind of screwed over if it's only 2pts cheaper than a fist. S5 to S8 for 2 points would be a hands down upgrade. I would have thought at least 5 pts would be more on the mark -what do you think?

 thegreatchimp wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:



Anyways for anyone that didn't see it I am reposting my draft for fixing Terminators.

Absolutely spot on. I'll happily use those rules. Puts the T back in "terminator" without being OTT or imbalanced. Thanks & well done.

One small thing -I've not done the maths, but is the upgrade from power weapon to fist too cheap?
Not that'd I'd choose to take 5 fists (because I'll either suffer "first strike" casualties vs good melee units due to unwieldy, and vs weaker combatants 10 or 15 pf attacks is usually overkill) So sword and mace would remain viable using your proposed weapon costs, but the axe is kind of screwed over if it's only 2pts cheaper than a fist. S5 to S8 for 2 points would be a hands down upgrade. I would have thought at least 5 pts would be more on the mark -what do you think?

I had it at 5pts, but changed it at a suggestion of another user.

Don't forget also that you gain the specialist weapon rule and lose any extra attacks for two weapons without taking another one.

I'll have to go over them again. Its probably too cheap IMO. (le sigh)

Looks pretty solid overall! Kinda surprised that you went with that level of gear customization, unexpected but would be interesting to see!
Only things that jump out at me are:
1) Power Fist cost, with it costed the way it is, Fist/Claw is directly superior to the fluffy twin-Claw setup for exactly the same price.
2) I have doubts about the buffed Storm Bolter being Salvo 2/3 instead of Salvo 2/4, but that's probably better off being worked out in playtesting whether it's better to give them 3 or 4 shots.

Will keep thinking but that's all I got for now.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Looks pretty solid overall! Kinda surprised that you went with that level of gear customization, unexpected but would be interesting to see!
Only things that jump out at me are:
1) Power Fist cost, with it costed the way it is, Fist/Claw is directly superior to the fluffy twin-Claw setup for exactly the same price.
2) I have doubts about the buffed Storm Bolter being Salvo 2/3 instead of Salvo 2/4, but that's probably better off being worked out in playtesting whether it's better to give them 3 or 4 shots.

Will keep thinking but that's all I got for now.

Yes I think that 5pts for a power fist is more fair.

The other options seem all right.



As far as customization I believe its best to have a single unit with all available options so that you can A. save page space, and B. outfit them in a way that's fun for you.

As a chaos player, I wish they would just give me Terminators with TL plasma guns for 14pts. That would be the most reliable plasma guns for me. A re-roll any gets hot! and if I still fail it, I have a 2+ armor.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

As far as customization I believe its best to have a single unit with all available options so that you can A. save page space, and B. outfit them in a way that's fun for you.

Oh I meant that I was thinking of the Deathwing-style setup, you start with the "tactical" gear with the options:
Swap for a pair of Lightning Claws for free
Swap for a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield for 10 points

But you went a step further and split it up, allowing for a lot more combos!

I could get behind t5 and 2 heavy weapons per 5.

And to fix the storm bolters suck route let loyalist terminators take combi weapons.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

As far as customization I believe its best to have a single unit with all available options so that you can A. save page space, and B. outfit them in a way that's fun for you.

Oh I meant that I was thinking of the Deathwing-style setup, you start with the "tactical" gear with the options:
Swap for a pair of Lightning Claws for free
Swap for a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield for 10 points

But you went a step further and split it up, allowing for a lot more combos!

Oh I see what your saying.

The idea originally came to me because I thought it'd be awesome to have power fist/lightning claw termies. They'd look freaking amazing!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel what are your thoughts on this?

What about making them free within a certain formation that isn't overly OP in itself.

 emptyhat wrote:
What about making them free within a certain formation that isn't overly OP in itself.

No. I cannot stress how bad of an idea that is.


Free transports is already (probably) broken and OTT. Getting free Terminators is ridiculous.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

 emptyhat wrote:
What about making them free within a certain formation that isn't overly OP in itself.

No. I cannot stress how bad of an idea that is.


Free transports is already (probably) broken and OTT. Getting free Terminators is ridiculous.

Not both from the same formation. Something more or less mutually exclusive.

i think the biggest issue is that the terminator is a punching unit in a meta that currently requires you shoot better than you punch. unless you can do some insane cc tricks like the skyhammer or the kahrybdis strike team or you have the insane rules of things like black knights/jetbike harleys you cant tango with that kind of stuff at all.

heres what we need: we need to re-establish the balance between shooting and ccing, we need to de-escalate the arms race of silly nonsense strength d pieplates and jetbikes with ludicrous value rules, we need to make overwatch a genuine tactical decision as opposed to a flat "going through the motions" mechanic. like here: if you overwatch at all (group or otherwise) you cannot hit n run out of combat/dynamic entry/exit, and attacks made back at a charging unit are done at ws1 now debating when to overwatch and when to let the cc just happen becomes a much more tactically involving decision for the player. shooting now has a penalty for failing to be good at shooting that is potentially lethal.

we need more transport mechanisms for the terminators that are affordable, i suggested an idea some months ago that i look back on as ridiculous but have repurposed it as an example for you here today: a terminator exclusive drop pod that lets them deepstrike from reserves. no weapons on the vehicle it simply arrives and lets them cc from the get go. now cc terminators can cc and shooty terminators can be weird and messed up and ya know shoot.

i think maybe giving terminators (including chaos) the autocannon as a weapons option at 1 per 3 models for 5p would be a very nice idea, now theres instant synergy with the cml letting you make terminator devestator squads; a destroyer squad if you will. and units numbering 6-9 models can take autocannons alongside their other ranged weapons that otherwise have no place in a unit that punches things so wierdos looking for a shooting terminator unit can do that instead of doing what a terminator was born to do.

removing invisibles benefit of snaps only against the unit while in cc i think would help too, no more magic cloaks against the punching. this pushes shooting armies to kill cc units even more.

the concept isnt to remove shooting entirely from armies that only know how to shoot but to point out that if they feth up the shooting their dead, no debates, no running that unit is dead and just doesnt know it yet.

this i feel makes units that can do both well useful again like wolf guard, storm troopers, sisters, flash gitz who otherwise or being ham fisted into one roll or another often even sent to their deaths as suicide squads foolishly hoping they kill something as a form of soft unit removal, if their even played at all.

however this steps all over the one trick pony units like tactical marines who cant cc at all, but they were already in that position because of the arms race that has spiraled so far away they might as well be orbiting a distant star across the galaxy from relevance. and the tau are in a position of kill the enemy before they reach 12" or im doomed but thats how i feel the tau are supposed to feel when they dont have the kroot to save them