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Hello
So as the title states, just how dangerous are Heldrakes, specifically the cheese formation of 3?

There is a formation of 3 helldrakes? I am not aware of it.

It's been a lot of times since helldrakes were op. Editions changed, baleflamer became a hull weapon, vector strikes went down from d3 to 1 hit vs ground. New GMC's are all the rage around, volumes of fire have gotten up, high strength weapons are more common etc etc etc.

It still retains its Meq killing power, but nowdays Meqs are all about alpha strike first round or hiding in free metal boxes so there's that. My drake has been collecting dust for some time now.

Not nearly as scary as they once were. An FAQ made all their weapons hull-mounted, which drastically reduced their effectiveness since they can't gak fire anymore.

Notice that I said hull-mounted. For some dumbass reason they are vehicles and not monstrous creatures, because to GW, a demon-possessed mechanical dragon without a pilot is a vehicle, but a big suit of armor with a pilot is a monstrous creature.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Not nearly as scary as they once were. An FAQ made all their weapons hull-mounted, which drastically reduced their effectiveness since they can't gak fire anymore.

Notice that I said hull-mounted. For some dumbass reason they are vehicles and not monstrous creatures, because to GW, a demon-possessed mechanical dragon without a pilot is a vehicle, but a big suit of armor with a pilot is a monstrous creature.

They're jetfighters that fused with their pilots and became possessed, I feel that the vehicle tag is justified for Heldrakes.

This is what a Heldrake looks like before becoming possessed: http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/6/6d/HellBlade03.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130301230321

DaPino wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Not nearly as scary as they once were. An FAQ made all their weapons hull-mounted, which drastically reduced their effectiveness since they can't gak fire anymore.

Notice that I said hull-mounted. For some dumbass reason they are vehicles and not monstrous creatures, because to GW, a demon-possessed mechanical dragon without a pilot is a vehicle, but a big suit of armor with a pilot is a monstrous creature.

They're jetfighters that fused with their pilots and became possessed, I feel that the vehicle tag is justified for Heldrakes.

This is what a Heldrake looks like before becoming possessed: http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/6/6d/HellBlade03.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130301230321

Yeah. Makes sense. Pilot in walker is completely different than pilot in living machine. Because the first actually isn't a monster at all but you could argue the second is. To me, living metal daemon sounds pretty literally monstrous... a battle suit just isn't.

GW logic, fan justification, gets a little tougher to keep a straight face every year.

 Lobukia wrote:

GW logic, fan justification, gets a little tougher to keep a straight face every year.

Exactly. You should immediately be suspicious of the motives of anyone who tries to justify why one robot with a guy wired inside is a Monstrous Creature and another is a Walker. It takes impressive double-think to avoid admitting that it was done purely to make one unit better than the other.

Anyway, back on topic. Heldrakes do still have one area where they shine, and that's in taking down bike armies. SM and DA still rely on bikes fairly often so I imagine it's nice to have a Heldrake. Especially if you think you'll ever face a Dark Angels player using that Ravenwing deathstar formation. 2+ rerollable Jink save? 3+ armor? Heldrake don't care, it eats that formation alive.

Maybe 3 is overkill though. Then again, the CSM codex is such a mess, you don't have many other good options. If you really like Heldrakes, buy one and see how it goes.

Well I have 3 Heldrakes but havent had the time to Field them yet as I dont really want to be TFG who brings 3 Baleflamers to a 1500 point game, The people at my local GWS are nice enough, but im just annoyed at the sheer number of Eldar, Tau and GK Cheese lists.

It was suggested to me that I buy more fast attack other than my 15 Bikes and I dont really see why Spawns would be better than any unit with Melta. I have 20 Raptors 15 Bikes and 3 Heldrakes

Spawns are the one unit that can safely get your jugger, demon axe lord into hth safely. I agree they don't do much more than that though.

Bikes are solid, especially if Nurgle/Slaanesh with IoE. Raptors are not that good except if you play a full 15 with mark of khorne and khorne's banner.

 KillMaimBurn96 wrote:


Hello
So as the title states, just how dangerous are Heldrakes, specifically the cheese formation of 3?

They are still Torret and AP3, while they can now only fire from thier front arc, 3 can still be pretty strong. One is 170 points and 3 is very big oint sink. As bad as the CSM codex is right now they are one of the top units to take.

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

 KillMaimBurn96 wrote:


Hello
So as the title states, just how dangerous are Heldrakes, specifically the cheese formation of 3?

They are still Torret and AP3, while they can now only fire from thier front arc, 3 can still be pretty strong. One is 170 points and 3 is very big oint sink. As bad as the CSM codex is right now they are one of the top units to take.

Quick question about that, does this mean that only the narrow end of the template has to be with the arc? The fat end can extend outside right? Would seem a little silly otherwise but I can see where it might come up.

The narrow end must be inside the arc and the narrow end must be closer than the fat end.

If they were able to fire at 180 degrees, they'd be very valuable. As is, they're decent. You'd spend two fast attack slots on them and decide whether you have a Lord that needs a retinue or you add a third one.

I could be overlooking something, but why does the narrow end of the template have to be within the arc?
This was a "nerf" to the Heldrake because it revoked permission to measure Line of Sight to the Base of the Model instead of the Weapon, important for Wound Allocation.

Just want to point out that the Heldrake can hover, even though the only jets are in it's rear.

In order for it to hover, since it's a aircraft and not a FMC, it would need to point straight up and use it's wings to keep it from falling to far one way or the other. That is honestly the main reason I would prefer it to be a FMC rather than a jet.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Just want to point out that the Heldrake can hover, even though the only jets are in it's rear.

In order for it to hover, since it's a aircraft and not a FMC, it would need to point straight up and use it's wings to keep it from falling to far one way or the other. That is honestly the main reason I would prefer it to be a FMC rather than a jet.

Its a dragon, it just stands on the ground.

Why do people take stuff so literally in 40k when it comes to imaginary fluff.

Because if they had a howitzer style artillery weapon and the rules said "act like it's on a turret" people would be upset that the model doesn't reflect the rules.

It was treated as FMC for firing originally and had an attack unique to FMC. Even just landing and making 180 turns like we expect skimmers to do seems to be beyond the abilities of the model. Every other skimmer is supposed to be able to hover full time without landing. It's just a small nitpick I have with the model.

I run a lot of chaos/khorne. Helldrakes, Spawn, Cultists, Juggers, Juggerlords, and Bloodcrushers... that's my whole list. Even in small local (6-20 player) tournaments, it does well enough.

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

 KillMaimBurn96 wrote:


Hello
So as the title states, just how dangerous are Heldrakes, specifically the cheese formation of 3?

They are still Torret and AP3, while they can now only fire from thier front arc, 3 can still be pretty strong. One is 170 points and 3 is very big oint sink. As bad as the CSM codex is right now they are one of the top units to take.

Quick question about that, does this mean that only the narrow end of the template has to be with the arc? The fat end can extend outside right? Would seem a little silly otherwise but I can see where it might come up.

It can extend outside the arc, but the wounds can't be allocated to models outside the arc, only blasts have permission to allocate wounds outside of the line of sight. So you can if you want to overkill whatever unit remains inside the line of sight arc of the hull mounted weapon

If it at least had a 180° vision arc it would be a good unit, currently with that hull mounted 45° it is just another unit in the CSM codex.

JinxDragon wrote:
I could be overlooking something, but why does the narrow end of the template have to be within the arc?
This was a "nerf" to the Heldrake because it revoked permission to measure Line of Sight to the Base of the Model instead of the Weapon, important for Wound Allocation.

Because the weapons are now considered to be hull mounted, hence they must obey the normal firing arc rules, but torrent lets you cheat a bit by only forcing the small end of the template to be within the arc. Then there is the additional restriction of the large end of the template not being closer than the small end.

Can you quote the Rule that says that, or give me the specific name of the Rule, so I can verify for myself?

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

GW logic, fan justification, gets a little tougher to keep a straight face every year.

Exactly. You should immediately be suspicious of the motives of anyone who tries to justify why one robot with a guy wired inside is a Monstrous Creature and another is a Walker. It takes impressive double-think to avoid admitting that it was done purely to make one unit better than the other.

Anyway, back on topic. Heldrakes do still have one area where they shine, and that's in taking down bike armies. SM and DA still rely on bikes fairly often so I imagine it's nice to have a Heldrake. Especially if you think you'll ever face a Dark Angels player using that Ravenwing deathstar formation. 2+ rerollable Jink save? 3+ armor? Heldrake don't care, it eats that formation alive.

Maybe 3 is overkill though. Then again, the CSM codex is such a mess, you don't have many other good options. If you really like Heldrakes, buy one and see how it goes.

this is especially true when you consider forgeworld of all people treat titans as vehicles as well as stompa's but label the supremacy armor a.. gargantuan creature. their logic is so flawed i dont know where to begin. i think they mainly get it from the fact that the smaller battlesuits are still infantry but scaling up doesnt make them infantry anymore, their vehicles now. if it cant fit on a 55mm base its a vehicle, and if it does have big angry teeth or bird feathers its not a monstrous creature. i can see the justification for the wraithknight because he technically is a magic suit of armor powered by a soul its technically a giant metal monster. but the supremacy armor or the riptide might as well be cannons with robotic legs, thats not a monster at all!! dont even get me started on the baby jumper of doom

these people borderline on incompetent

With the new Tau codex right around the corner they are history.

I still take a Drake now and again, but these days my Fire Raptor Gunship outperforms it far too cost effectively. Sure the AP Torrent is nice, but being able to lay suppressive fire against all units, not just infantry and light Vehicles, makes it much more desirable to me.

 KillMaimBurn96 wrote:


Hello
So as the title states, just how dangerous are Heldrakes, specifically the cheese formation of 3?

IIRC the formation is an Apocalypse formation, not a normal one.

That said, Heldrakes aren't bad, just not the "zomg amazing" they once were Between Vector Strike getting toned down and them having their main weapon Errata'd back to only working in a frontla 45* arc, it majorly limits the amount of damage they can cause. No more killing a transport with Vector strike and roasting the occupants immediately after.

The autocannon variant isn't bad as an FMC/Flyer hunter.

Overall, not bad, just not as ridiculous as they once were..

 Vaktathi wrote:

 KillMaimBurn96 wrote:


Hello
So as the title states, just how dangerous are Heldrakes, specifically the cheese formation of 3?

IIRC the formation is an Apocalypse formation, not a normal one.

That said, Heldrakes aren't bad, just not the "zomg amazing" they once were Between Vector Strike getting toned down and them having their main weapon Errata'd back to only working in a frontla 45* arc, it majorly limits the amount of damage they can cause. No more killing a transport with Vector strike and roasting the occupants immediately after.

The autocannon variant isn't bad as an FMC/Flyer hunter.

Overall, not bad, just not as ridiculous as they once were..

Are you serious? The Autocannon is absolutely horrible.

Can I say that I do not think the Heldrakes have a formation, and if so it was not my intention to say it was, It was a supposed to be a joke

no you can't take one as a pet

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Just want to point out that the Heldrake can hover, even though the only jets are in it's rear.

In order for it to hover, since it's a aircraft and not a FMC, it would need to point straight up and use it's wings to keep it from falling to far one way or the other. That is honestly the main reason I would prefer it to be a FMC rather than a jet.

I've seen plenty of conversions that make it do exactly that, with the head sticking forward as normal. No reason it wouldn't work, really.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 KillMaimBurn96 wrote:


Hello
So as the title states, just how dangerous are Heldrakes, specifically the cheese formation of 3?

IIRC the formation is an Apocalypse formation, not a normal one.

That said, Heldrakes aren't bad, just not the "zomg amazing" they once were Between Vector Strike getting toned down and them having their main weapon Errata'd back to only working in a frontla 45* arc, it majorly limits the amount of damage they can cause. No more killing a transport with Vector strike and roasting the occupants immediately after.

The autocannon variant isn't bad as an FMC/Flyer hunter.

Overall, not bad, just not as ridiculous as they once were..

Are you serious? The Autocannon is absolutely horrible.

Don't they seem passable anti-air with skyfire?

 KillMaimBurn96 wrote:
Can I say that I do not think the Heldrakes have a formation, and if so it was not my intention to say it was, It was a supposed to be a joke

You need to work on your delivery then