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Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith





So I'm confused about when new codex rules apply.

Regarding the Legion of the Damned, since they are now in Codex: SM, does that mean that all of their rules for their 6th edition dataslate are gone?
I can't use their animus malorum?
Or can I no longer take them as an individual allied detachment comprised only of an elite slot of LotD?

If Militarum Tempestus ended up fused with a new Astra Militarum codex, would that eliminate their previous formations from the MT codex if the formations were not included in the new codex?
What if a model were not included in the codex? Is that model made invalid for that edition?

If a new Necrons Codex came out without Decurion mentioned AT ALL in codex, does that mean Decurion is no longer allowed?

- 10000+ pts
Imperial Knights- 5 Standard Knights / 3 Cerastus Knights
Officio Assassinorum - 4 Assassins
CSM - 500pts? Maybe? Its from the Officio Assassinorum box so I'm pretty sure its not enough to run in a CAD
Vampire Lords- I have no idea I bought it like two days before I left country and they're still in storage so I'll have to see when I get back.] 
   
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 Mantorok wrote:
So I'm confused about when new codex rules apply.

Regarding the Legion of the Damned, since they are now in Codex: SM, does that mean that all of their rules for their 6th edition dataslate are gone?
I can't use their animus malorum?
Or can I no longer take them as an individual allied detachment comprised only of an elite slot of LotD?

If Militarum Tempestus ended up fused with a new Astra Militarum codex, would that eliminate their previous formations from the MT codex if the formations were not included in the new codex?
What if a model were not included in the codex? Is that model made invalid for that edition?

If a new Necrons Codex came out without Decurion mentioned AT ALL in codex, does that mean Decurion is no longer allowed?


Codex: Legion of the Damned is still a standalone Codex for sale at Games Workshop. Until GW stops selling it and says "this isn't legal anymore" it is still a legal option to build your army.

If a new Codex: Necrons came out the old Codex: Necrons would become invalid - treat it as if it had never existed since there is an updated version.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/01 14:43:20


 
   
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nekooni wrote:

Codex: Legion of the Damned is still a standalone Codex for sale at Games Workshop. Until GW stops selling it and says "this isn't legal anymore" it is still a legal option to build your army.

If a new Codex: Necrons came out the old Codex: Necrons would become invalid - treat it as if it had never existed since there is an updated version.


So then why is the Black Templar Codex invalidated by Codex:SM?
Where and when does GW make the announcement that a codex is dead?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/01 15:00:06


- 10000+ pts
Imperial Knights- 5 Standard Knights / 3 Cerastus Knights
Officio Assassinorum - 4 Assassins
CSM - 500pts? Maybe? Its from the Officio Assassinorum box so I'm pretty sure its not enough to run in a CAD
Vampire Lords- I have no idea I bought it like two days before I left country and they're still in storage so I'll have to see when I get back.] 
   
Made in us
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Astonished of Heck

 Mantorok wrote:
nekooni wrote:

Codex: Legion of the Damned is still a standalone Codex for sale at Games Workshop. Until GW stops selling it and says "this isn't legal anymore" it is still a legal option to build your army.

If a new Codex: Necrons came out the old Codex: Necrons would become invalid - treat it as if it had never existed since there is an updated version.


So then why is the Black Templar Codex invalidated by Codex:SM?
Where and when does GW make the announcement that a codex is dead?

The previous Codex: Space Marines stated that any references to Codex: Black Templars were referring to Codex: Space Marines with the Chapter Traits (Black Templar) rule.

Still, this is a proper question for the supplements. Iyanden was just considered dead when Codex: Craftworlds was released, and aside from pulling it from the stores (both online and brick & mortar) and all the references to Codex: Eldar making zero literal connections, there was nothing.

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Escalation is still for sale... so Transcendent C'Tan from that book is legal!

7000 pts 1000 pts 2000 pts 500 pts 3000 pts
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 Lammikkovalas wrote:
Escalation is still for sale... so Transcendent C'Tan from that book is legal!

Well in what army list do you want to use that datasheet? IIRC the current Codex: Necrons already features an updated Transcendent C'Tan, doesn't it? So that's the most recent version of it.

Basically for "solo datasheets" you use the most recent all the time. Army Lists also use their latest version, but: Army Lists do not update OTHER Army Lists datasheets. Space Wolves do not get to run the current Vanilla Dreadnoughts with 4 Attacks, for example, since they're a different Army List. The same applies to Chimeras for Codex: Inquisition, or the entire Army List of the Armoured Battlegroup (IA1 2nd) - but if a solo datashet - e.g. the Stormlord Lord of War - gets updated, both the Astra Militarum and the Armoured Battlegroup use the new version.

Logically that looks like this:

Astra Militarum has a list of units (Leman Russ 1.0, Veterans 1.0)
Armoured Battlegroup has a list of units (Leman Russ 1.0, Veterans 1.0)
----
Astra Militarum gets an update (Leman Russ 2.0, Veterans 2.0)
ABG remains as is (Leman Russ 1.0, Veterans 1.0)
----
Stormlord is introduced as a solo datasheet with "May be used as a Lord of War for any Faction of the Imperium"
Both AM and ABG match the criteria, so they get access to Stormlord 1.0
----
Astra Militarum gets an update (Leman Russ 3.0, Veterans 3.0, Stormlord 1.0)
ABG remains as is (Leman Russ 1.0, Veterans 1.0)
----
Stormlord gets an update, both AM and ABG now use Stormlord 2.0
----
Astra Militarum gets an update (Leman Russ 3.0, Veterans 3.0, Stormlord 2.0) but contains a paragraph that tells you that it is considered the successor to the Armoured Battlegroup List and offers you a new detachment "Armoured Battlegroup".
Now whenever AM gets an update it propagates to the ABG (since it will be updated in that book as well) and if GW cuts it from the codex, the ABG will be dead. Or you use the last "standalone ABG", not sure on that.

At least that's how I think it's supposed to be done. Hope the example wasn't too confusing.
   
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nekooni wrote:

Well in what army list do you want to use that datasheet? IIRC the current Codex: Necrons already features an updated Transcendent C'Tan, doesn't it? So that's the most recent version of it.

Basically for "solo datasheets" you use the most recent all the time. Army Lists also use their latest version, but: Army Lists do not update OTHER Army Lists datasheets. Space Wolves do not get to run the current Vanilla Dreadnoughts with 4 Attacks, for example, since they're a different Army List. The same applies to Chimeras for Codex: Inquisition, or the entire Army List of the Armoured Battlegroup (IA1 2nd) - but if a solo datashet - e.g. the Stormlord Lord of War - gets updated, both the Astra Militarum and the Armoured Battlegroup use the new version.

Logically that looks like this:

Astra Militarum has a list of units (Leman Russ 1.0, Veterans 1.0)
Armoured Battlegroup has a list of units (Leman Russ 1.0, Veterans 1.0)
----
Astra Militarum gets an update (Leman Russ 2.0, Veterans 2.0)
ABG remains as is (Leman Russ 1.0, Veterans 1.0)
----
Stormlord is introduced as a solo datasheet with "May be used as a Lord of War for any Faction of the Imperium"
Both AM and ABG match the criteria, so they get access to Stormlord 1.0
----
Astra Militarum gets an update (Leman Russ 3.0, Veterans 3.0, Stormlord 1.0)
ABG remains as is (Leman Russ 1.0, Veterans 1.0)
----
Stormlord gets an update, both AM and ABG now use Stormlord 2.0
----
Astra Militarum gets an update (Leman Russ 3.0, Veterans 3.0, Stormlord 2.0) but contains a paragraph that tells you that it is considered the successor to the Armoured Battlegroup List and offers you a new detachment "Armoured Battlegroup".
Now whenever AM gets an update it propagates to the ABG (since it will be updated in that book as well) and if GW cuts it from the codex, the ABG will be dead. Or you use the last "standalone ABG", not sure on that.

At least that's how I think it's supposed to be done. Hope the example wasn't too confusing.


Mother of god. Its super confusing, I get it, but if that's really how GW determines what is or isn't current, I weep for the state of the game.

As much flak as AoS gets, at least is has a handy-dandy app with EVERYTHING located in one place.

I wish they'd do that for 40k too.

- 10000+ pts
Imperial Knights- 5 Standard Knights / 3 Cerastus Knights
Officio Assassinorum - 4 Assassins
CSM - 500pts? Maybe? Its from the Officio Assassinorum box so I'm pretty sure its not enough to run in a CAD
Vampire Lords- I have no idea I bought it like two days before I left country and they're still in storage so I'll have to see when I get back.] 
   
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nekooni wrote:

If a new Codex: Necrons came out the old Codex: Necrons would become invalid - treat it as if it had never existed since there is an updated version.

That's the common convention, but it's not actually a thing.

There is no rule that says that a codex becomes invalid just because a newer one came out. Technically, the old Codex Necrons is still fine, but as the core rules change it will get harder to keep using it without tweaking.

If you have a book that functions with the current edition, though, it doesn't suddenly have all its writing erased when a new book drops. It's still just as functional as it was the day before that new codex arrived.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mantorok wrote:

Where and when does GW make the announcement that a codex is dead?

They very rarely do.

As someone else mentioned, they specifically referred Black Templars players to Codex: Space Marines in the rulebook for determining allies, although never actually said that you couldn't still use the BT book by itself.

Way back in the day, they made an announcement that Codex: Craftworld Eldar (a supplement from 3rd edition) was rendered invalid by the new (at the time) Eldar Codex.

And even further back, they stated that Codex: Assassins was made invalid by Codex: Daemonhunters.

And, of course, all of the 2nd edition codexes dies when 3rd edition was released.


I can't think of any others that have been specifically ruled obsolete by GW. Players just assume that they're supposed to use the newest available book.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/01 20:01:36


 
   
Made in us
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East Coast, USA

 Mantorok wrote:
So I'm confused about when new codex rules apply.

Regarding the Legion of the Damned, since they are now in Codex: SM, does that mean that all of their rules for their 6th edition dataslate are gone?
I can't use their animus malorum?
Or can I no longer take them as an individual allied detachment comprised only of an elite slot of LotD?

If Militarum Tempestus ended up fused with a new Astra Militarum codex, would that eliminate their previous formations from the MT codex if the formations were not included in the new codex?
What if a model were not included in the codex? Is that model made invalid for that edition?

If a new Necrons Codex came out without Decurion mentioned AT ALL in codex, does that mean Decurion is no longer allowed?


1. Codex: Legion of the Damned is still a valid source. You use it when you are putting together a Legion of the Damned Detachment. If you are putting together a Codex: Space Marines Detachment, you can only use the data sheet from Codex: Space Marines. What this means is that when you are adding Legion of the Damned as an Elites choice in a Space Marines Detachment, they can't use any of the rules or wargear items unique to Codex: Legion of the Damned. If you're adding them as an Elites choice in a LotD Detachment, you can.

2. If a new Codex: Astra Mililtarum is released that specifically states that it replaces Codex: Militarum Tempestus, then anything from the replaced codex that isn't in the new codex is gone. This would include named characters. The 6th Edition Codex: Space Marines had wording saying that it replaced Codex: Black Templars. This caused a bunch of C:BT specific rules to simply go away. The current Codex: Astra Militarum dropped a bunch of named characters when it replaced the older Codex: Imperial Guard.

3. If a new Codex: Necrons comes out and has no mention of the Decurion, then the Decurion would no longer be a legal way to play.

The general guideline is as follows...

If GW currently sells it, it's a current and valid rules source. You need to look at the physical stores, various web sites (GW, Black Library and Forgeworld) and various online stores (iBooks for example) where GW sells things to see if something is available. Sometimes a rules source is only available in one format and not another, but is still a valid rules source.

If they no longer sell it in any format, it's generally not a valid rules source. I say generally because there are a few exceptions to this rule. There are a number of Limited Edition models that have rules that are 'current', but not available. The named characters that were included with Dark Vengeance Limited Edition and Stormclaw boxes are good examples. They're no longer for sale, but are still considered by the community to be current rules. Vrosh Tattersoul is a good example of this.

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The ' is it currently for sale ' thing is a bad test. Depending on how much stock they have left over from the last print run, codexes can be unavailable for some time prior to a new version being released.

And, again, your book doesn't suddenly become unreadable just because GW no longer sell it.

 
   
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East Coast, USA

 insaniak wrote:
The ' is it currently for sale ' thing is a bad test. Depending on how much stock they have left over from the last print run, codexes can be unavailable for some time prior to a new version being released.

And, again, your book doesn't suddenly become unreadable just because GW no longer sell it.


Which is why I said you need to consider all the available sales venues. The print version might be currently out of print, but if it's available in an ePub version from Black Library directly, it's still currently for sale. I wracked by brain, but other than Limited Edition releases that were never released electronically, I can't think of anything the community considers current that I couldn't buy right now from either Games-Workshop.com, BlackLibrary.com or Forgework.co.uk.

Legit question... can you think of anything the community considers current that you CAN'T currently buy and isn't one of the Limited Edition minis/rules from Dark Vengeance/Stormclaw?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/01 20:31:22


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Skyhammer Annihilation Force
   
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 Mr. Shine wrote:
Skyhammer Annihilation Force


Good example. If I were running a tournament, I'd have to give some serious thought as to whether or not to allow Limited Edition rules. You have two options, really. The first is to only allow rules that can be acquired legally on a fixed date. Historically, this was commonly done. Tournaments would say that any Codexes released on or before a certain date were legal. This is problematic today as the old assumption that rules would be available until replaced is no longer true. The second option is to allow any rules that have yet to be replaced with a newer version. This is also problematic as you run into two main issues. The first is that you encourage theft of intellectual property. The only way to get many of these data sheets is to steal them by downloading a PDF. The other is that you penalize people who aren't willing to steal by giving them fewer legal options with which to build armies.

My thought process is that disallowing anything that can't be bought today in some format is the most fair thing to do. If I'm playing in a tournament, I shouldn't be penalized because I'm unwilling to steal copies of files off the internet. As a TO, I most likely wouldn't allow things like the Skyhammer Annihilation Force.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/01 20:49:00


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 Kriswall wrote:
If I were running a tournament, I'd have to give some serious thought as to whether or not to allow Limited Edition rules.

For tournament, yes, there needs to be some sort of limitation on what is and isn't allowed, so that everyone is on an even playing field. And yes, I'd go with not allowing limited edition rules in that case.

For casual games, though, there's really no particular reason that books should be disallowed just because there is a newer version. Hell, I had a game two weeks ago against a player still using the 6th edition marine codex. It functioned just as well as it did before the 7th edition codex was released.

If he gets the 7th ed book at some point, then great, we'll use that. But until then, I see no good reason to not let him use what he has.

 
   
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 insaniak wrote:
 Kriswall wrote:
If I were running a tournament, I'd have to give some serious thought as to whether or not to allow Limited Edition rules.

For tournament, yes, there needs to be some sort of limitation on what is and isn't allowed, so that everyone is on an even playing field. And yes, I'd go with not allowing limited edition rules in that case.

For casual games, though, there's really no particular reason that books should be disallowed just because there is a newer version. Hell, I had a game two weeks ago against a player still using the 6th edition marine codex. It functioned just as well as it did before the 7th edition codex was released.

If he gets the 7th ed book at some point, then great, we'll use that. But until then, I see no good reason to not let him use what he has.


Of course you can still play 3rd Edition or whatever, sorry if I came across as "this is the only way to play 40k". It's not, of course - you can do whatever you like in the group you play with. What I wrote just reflects what I think GW intends us to do with the rules, and what you should consider doing if you and the other player are unsure which rules you want to use.
   
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Thanks for all the help guys. I think I can finally wrap my head around all this.

GW really needs to compile their legal formations in a format available to everyone though.

- 10000+ pts
Imperial Knights- 5 Standard Knights / 3 Cerastus Knights
Officio Assassinorum - 4 Assassins
CSM - 500pts? Maybe? Its from the Officio Assassinorum box so I'm pretty sure its not enough to run in a CAD
Vampire Lords- I have no idea I bought it like two days before I left country and they're still in storage so I'll have to see when I get back.] 
   
Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity





East Coast, USA

nekooni wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
 Kriswall wrote:
If I were running a tournament, I'd have to give some serious thought as to whether or not to allow Limited Edition rules.

For tournament, yes, there needs to be some sort of limitation on what is and isn't allowed, so that everyone is on an even playing field. And yes, I'd go with not allowing limited edition rules in that case.

For casual games, though, there's really no particular reason that books should be disallowed just because there is a newer version. Hell, I had a game two weeks ago against a player still using the 6th edition marine codex. It functioned just as well as it did before the 7th edition codex was released.

If he gets the 7th ed book at some point, then great, we'll use that. But until then, I see no good reason to not let him use what he has.


Of course you can still play 3rd Edition or whatever, sorry if I came across as "this is the only way to play 40k". It's not, of course - you can do whatever you like in the group you play with. What I wrote just reflects what I think GW intends us to do with the rules, and what you should consider doing if you and the other player are unsure which rules you want to use.


You can also use playing blocks of cheese on cracker bases instead of Citadel models. I think the discussion isn't really about your local gaming community. It's more along the lines of wanting to know what you can reasonable expect if you walk into a generic game store located in Anytown, USA (or England or whatever).

It's reasonable to expect the average player in an average gaming store to be playing with latest edition rules, i.e. 7th.
It's reasonable to expect the average player in an average gaming store to be using the latest updated version of a Codex, i.e. the recent Space Marine 7th Edition Codex.
It's reasonable to expect the average player in an average gaming store to want to use rules s/he purchased and that haven't yet been replaced with newer rules but that are no longer available, i.e. Vrosh Tattersoul's data sheet.

It's also reasonable to expect the average player in an average gaming store to be reasonable about making exceptions. The default expectation is that you use the 7th Edition Codex for Space Marines, but most reasonable people would let you use the 6th Edition Codex if you haven't bought the new one yet. I think most reasonable people would also expect you to budget for and purchase the new Codex sooner than later, though. It's reasonable to expect lots of people to still have the older Codex a week after the new one is released. It's not as reasonable to expect as many people to still have the older Codex months or years later.

Now...

Having said all that, as soon as you focus in on a specific group of individuals (henceforth to be referred to as the Community), any talk about what's reasonable or potentially expected goes right out the window. You now have the ability to simply gather the Community together and come to a conclusion. You can nail down actual answers. You may not like the answers, but you'll have them. Is it acceptable to use older versions of Codexes? Community says no. Community says you have a 30 day window to buy the new Codex. Forgeworld? Community says sure. Etc. Etc. These online debates tend to be about the generic, average gaming store and not about a specific Community. It's possible that your Community still plays or will accommodate 3rd Edition. It's not reasonable to expect an average gaming store to do the same.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/02 12:58:03


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With this argument. What about Escalation. The Trans Ctan in the Escalation is a best compared to the weeny in the current Necron Codex. Which one is legal to use since they are both for sale?

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 typhus40k wrote:
With this argument. What about Escalation. The Trans Ctan in the Escalation is a best compared to the weeny in the current Necron Codex. Which one is legal to use since they are both for sale?


a lot of people say no, I personally think that you can use it but then one has to consider the other necron LOWs like the vault and obelisk are also in the new necron codex so which one is fine to use or are all of them fine to use?

It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.  
   
 
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