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On a T3 4+ platform, that makes Guardsmen look good at CC.

If they get within 5" of a MEQ squad, they are going to pile on the hurt.

If almost any MEQ squad gets within 5" of them, though, they are dead. Takes what, 2-3 Marines to beat all 10 of them in CC?

If they get within 5" of almost any enemy infantry they are goiing to remove them.

Bharring wrote:

If almost any MEQ squad gets within 5" of them, though, they are dead. Takes what, 2-3 Marines to beat all 10 of them in CC?

15 if you count the bolt pistol shots too and disregard Overwatch. 5-6 should be enough to win the combat and kill the Breachers from Sweeping Advance though.

 master of ordinance wrote:
If they get within 5" of almost any enemy infantry they are goiing to remove them.

Not quite. 8.33 wounds on meqs (assuming 10 man squad, all able to get within 5"). But that's only looking at one side, not any shots heading towards them. Base they are no more survivable than FWs, although they can be more survivable against AP4- if they get the shas'ui+drone combo (I think that's 24 points total). So, again, whether they end up being good or not relies very much on their delivery method. If the devilfish is good in the next book, these will definitely be an option. If the devilfish is not, than these will be very situational.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Tau are struggling? They regularly wipe the floor with everything short of Eldar. Out shooting them is impossible and getting close enough to assault is a joke. The only armies capable of fighting them are Necrons (durability) Eldar (Scatspam and Wraithbrigade) and Space Marines (Droppod spam and Skyhammer)

Don't worry, you play IG. That means that you can't ever loose, because IG are as points efficient as an army of Wraithnights.

I would very much like to see Devilfish get a points drop. I think it's a cool model, but one that doesn't see much use due to how inefficient it is for its point cost and lack of anything great to deliver. Breachers fill the second role, now all we have to see about is the first.

The reason a lot of people don't like the unit is because the devilfish has always been an expensive transport. The only real method people have of moving the breachers is to use a devilfish.

If it was honestly that easy for a standard infantry unit to get within 5" of an enemy unit, then drop pod melta wouldn't be that special and assault would be much more common.

Honestly, if you were facing off against these do you think you'd have a difficult time countering them?

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The reason a lot of people don't like the unit is because the devilfish has always been an expensive transport. The only real method people have of moving the breachers is to use a devilfish.

If it was honestly that easy for a standard infantry unit to get within 5" of an enemy unit, then drop pod melta wouldn't be that special and assault would be much more common.

Honestly, if you were facing off against these do you think you'd have a difficult time countering them?

Speaking as Templars - Yes.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The reason a lot of people don't like the unit is because the devilfish has always been an expensive transport. The only real method people have of moving the breachers is to use a devilfish.

If it was honestly that easy for a standard infantry unit to get within 5" of an enemy unit, then drop pod melta wouldn't be that special and assault would be much more common.

Honestly, if you were facing off against these do you think you'd have a difficult time countering them?

Speaking as Imperial Guard, yes

Well, consider more than just the guns. I'm assuming that the loadout pictured in the article is the standard fluffwise, with the turret, one guard drone and one gun drone. (I believe this is also the reason for having max ten models, like pathfinders designed for drones and a devilfish) But consider the unit with the above drones, the turret, and a devilfish. Their role is to advance and camp an objective towards the middle of the field. If their are no nearby enemies when they disembark, they pop up their turret. Otherwise, they want to move in close. It might seem bad for Tau, but if you move within five inches, you get 10 anti-meq shots, and one twin-linked pinning carbine shot. They will not be that bad on the enemy turn, with the possibility of pinning last turn, more MEQ killing overwatch, and the 6+ invuln from the drone. I think part of why Tau players are disappointed is because it requires new tactics, and a fresh playstyle. I myself will probably use them to take objectives and reinforce them with deepstriking suits. JMHO.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
If they get within 5" of almost any enemy infantry they are goiing to remove them.

Not quite. 8.33 wounds on meqs (assuming 10 man squad, all able to get within 5"). But that's only looking at one side, not any shots heading towards them. Base they are no more survivable than FWs, although they can be more survivable against AP4- if they get the shas'ui+drone combo (I think that's 24 points total). So, again, whether they end up being good or not relies very much on their delivery method. If the devilfish is good in the next book, these will definitely be an option. If the devilfish is not, than these will be very situational.

Another thing to take into account is marines often being in five man combat squads. If that's the case, then on average the breachers just wipe them out. Take into account the devilfish that they rolled up in also pumping rounds into the squad and even if its ten marines there is a good possibility the breachers won't be faced with return fire, let alone a charge as there will be nothing left.

I drool at the though of IG shotguns getting this kind of love.

master of ordinance wrote:
Speaking as Imperial Guard, yes

What do guard have that are even concerned with 6/3 shots?
Is this a problem you're having currently with Pulse Carbines in Devilfish rushing?

Selym wrote:Speaking as Templars - Yes.

Not familiar with Templar. But is it really hard to slow down an AV12 skimmer? Especially if it's moving in close. Do Templar have limited access to drop pods, bikes, thunderfire cannons, and things like that?

 Savageconvoy wrote:
But is it really hard to slow down an AV12 skimmer?

It is when said skimmer has a 3+ cover save. At this point, grav is the only answer - but it can only Wreck the Devilfish, so the Breachers can hop out 10" away from the attackers and shoot them next turn into pieces.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Selym wrote:Speaking as Templars - Yes.

Not familiar with Templar. But is it really hard to slow down an AV12 skimmer? Especially if it's moving in close. Do Templar have limited access to drop pods, bikes, thunderfire cannons, and things like that?

Well, you only really play Templars for fluff, and that involves a lot of melee and LR rushing. Turn 1 from the Tau these days is happily able to take out my Raiders. Leaving me to close in on foot...

Alternativley, I can go the route of Bikers. Which exacerbates the issue when fighting Tau.

If I really wanted, I could go for Drop Pods, which are the least efficient form of Black Tide, and result in my crusaders standing in the open like a bunch of wallies for a turn, while the Tau unload or use Interceptor to prevent the landing. Followed up by half of my forces arriving sporadically through the 2nd to 4th turn, and then having no ground mobility.

Wait, really? I always have a really hard time at heavy armour with tau, my only real solution in meta-cide.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Wait, really? I always have a really hard time at heavy armour with tau, my only real solution in meta-cide.

Dunno if its just my meta, but I can't keep Av14 on the board most days.

I know that I have always had a hard time dealing with heavy armor. Only reliable answer was suicide fusion suits.
Hammerheads I've had such horrible luck with that I haven't even bothered trying to bring them anymore.
Riptide with a Nova'd IA is something my opponents want to see. It forces me to shoot at something with a shot that has 2 chances to wound my own unit and then has the chance to scatter off target.

For me I've taken Interceptor on a lot of units, but to me it's only been useful in the deployment phase. I never bother shooting units with it unless it's something that just lands right in the open.
What generally happens is that I tell an opponent I have interceptor on things and then he either avoids keeping units in reserves or when he does put them in reserve he goes really out of his way to keep them out of LOS when they hit the board.
There isn't really a way to buff interceptor shots. So I generally prefer letting what ever land and then shooting next turn. But it always makes my opponent change his deployment plans.

You'd have a much better time against me, I think. I have infamously bad rolls for vehicles.

-Going over terrain? I WILL get immobilized, Dozer Blades or no.
-Lone Lascannon equivalent? It'll take out three vehicles, and I'll fail to kill it all game.

I think we'd have a very average game then.

On snap shots I've gotten 1/36 shots to hit. Unit of missile suits shooting at a storm raven from the rear twice, once with a re-roll.

I've taken two hammerheads in a small tournament and went all the way to the 3rd round, in the 4th turn until I finally managed a penetrating hit. All vehicles were 11-12 in armor value and saves were being made left and right.

I even had a bad record against BA in 6th because I could never take down a storm raven (literally 0 storm raven kills the entire edition) and my opponent would make just about every FNP roll.

I even used the IA against standard BA, but somehow I managed to scatter onto a non-ml unit so no cover reduction. Basically if I'm rolling scatter, it's always going to be box cars.

I have an odd relationship with scatter. If its a Battlecannon, it'll either not hit anything, or it'll be a perfect hit but no kills.
If its Deep Strike, I'll usually land within running distance of where I need to be.

I feel your pain. My scatter missiles may as well be heat seekers, while my krak missiles can't hit 1/4 of the time.

I can't see any reason to put a squad of firewarriors close to enemy. With AP3 and their range they can't kill anything important. Most of them will fold in opponent's turn with the survivors becoming insignificant. Can't come up with any good usage for them.

In short, they are crap.

There are some uses for them, and honestly I would probably take a unit or two of them depending on the Devilfish cost.

If you're playing against an aggressive opponent with a fast list, just keep them in reserve and bring them in to clear the backfield. If they come in too early, just put them where they can try and slow the enemy down or even funnel the unit in your favor.

If you're going against a more static enemy you can use them along with a ghostkeel to try and press a flank and secure an objective. Deploy the missile drone for some extra ranged firepower.

I don't think these are really bad. I think there are some decent ways to use them in addition to standard firewarriors. While not fast themselves, there are plenty of units that can be used along with them to help secure a good rush. While not having incredible range, they can be kept in reserve to at least make your opponent reconsider storming your deployment zone as fast he can.

Naw wrote:
I can't see any reason to put a squad of firewarriors close to enemy. With AP3 and their range they can't kill anything important. Most of them will fold in opponent's turn with the survivors becoming insignificant. Can't come up with any good usage for them.

In short, they are crap.

"This unit is crap" before the Codex even comes out.


Stay classy, Dakka!


For all you know, there will be a formation in the new Tau Empire book which allows Breacher Teams to dismount, fire, and remount if they destroy a unit during the Shooting Phase or claim an Objective or any number of potential scenarios ala "The Serpent's Brood" formation in the Harlequin book(minus the Hit & Run part).

Using that logic you can't say they're good either because they may make them 20 ppm in the codex and change FW to 5 ppm and make the pulse rifle an Assault 5 D weapon.

People are using what they know and what's been given. We know the devilfish has been overcosted for two editions. We know that changes between codexes can be any where from little change, lack luster, or insanely good in a bad way.

So either we let people have opinions that they are bad, or we just don't discuss them at all until everything is out.

Or, better yet, we discuss them while acknowledging the caveat that we don't have the "big picture" yet.

Do we know for a fact if this replaces the Pulse Carbine?

 Kanluwen wrote:
Or, better yet, we discuss them while acknowledging the caveat that we don't have the "big picture" yet.

Why not just assume that when someone says "I think this looks like trash" we assume they mean it with the implied "from what I know currently" rather than making someone say it each time and then calling them out on it when they don't?

I haven't heard any mention that the pulse blasters are replacing carbines, other than the FW/Breachers being a dual kit. So they may be a dual kit with 3 weapon options. Really I think the carbines look almost exactly like the blasters.

Which would make Pathfinder really interesting if they got those instead of the old carbines.

Bharring wrote:
Do we know for a fact if this replaces the Pulse Carbine?

It doesn't, it's just another option. Or more accurately, it's another troops choice with different options.

I plan on using a unit of ten in a devilfish. I already have a ten man unit of FW with carbines for some inexplicable reason and due to how close they look, I will simply use them. I tend to play in your face army lists so these will fit in nicely with what I have planned. Who knows, they could replace my other fire warrior squad if they end up doing well. If anything it gives me a reason to paint them up.