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 Kanluwen wrote:

Free army wide markerlights, that can be used to make every unit hit on 2+ or better for 3 turns minimum (4 turns with a cheap relic), without the use of a kill-able support unit that costs points and takes up a contested FoC slot.
How, exactly, are you getting "every unit hits on 2+ or better for 3 turns minimum (4 turns with a cheap relic)"?

I have encountered no Relic in the Skitarii or Cult Mechanicus book which has an effect like that. Are you referring to a Formation? Because the only Formation which grants you an additional usage of a Doctrina Imperative is the War Cohort and that is a pretty significant investment.

I play Skitarii. I know how big of a deal they can be.

My bad on the relic, Its the war cohort formation that gives the re-use. How do they hit on 2+ for 3 turns or more? Skitarii have bs 4 base can use Binharic Omniscience (Alpha) - +3 BS / -2 WS for BS 7 army wide; the following turn use Gundrill Symbiosis (Beta) - +2 BS / -1 WS for BS 6, the following turn use Hazard Optimization (Gamma) - +1 BS for BS 5. That's 3 turns of BS 5 or better. Lowering the WS of the skitarii is disadvantageous, but can be offset by building a primarily shooting list. Having the first 3 turns of the game (arguably the most important turns) of BS 5 or better army wide (without your opponent being able to prevent it outside of tabling you) is a rather strong ability. Simply calling it a one use markerlight is a false equivalency.

The disadvantage to markerlights? They cost points, they can be killed, they and the unit they are buffing need line of sight to the same target. What they don't do is buff every tau unit simultaneously regardless of position or target.

However, I was never saying markerlights were better or worse than imperatives, I saw your suggestion for changes to markerlights in the how to fix tau thread and agreed with them. You were comparing skitarii vanguards to breachers and IMO were understating the value of doctrina imperatives to prove your point. You can compare imperatives to markerlights all you want, but unless the breachers get automatic markerlights baked into their cost like vanguards do with imperatives, it's irrelevant.

 chalkobob wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Free army wide markerlights, that can be used to make every unit hit on 2+ or better for 3 turns minimum (4 turns with a cheap relic), without the use of a kill-able support unit that costs points and takes up a contested FoC slot.
How, exactly, are you getting "every unit hits on 2+ or better for 3 turns minimum (4 turns with a cheap relic)"?

I have encountered no Relic in the Skitarii or Cult Mechanicus book which has an effect like that. Are you referring to a Formation? Because the only Formation which grants you an additional usage of a Doctrina Imperative is the War Cohort and that is a pretty significant investment.

I play Skitarii. I know how big of a deal they can be.

My bad on the relic, Its the war cohort formation that gives the re-use. How do they hit on 2+ for 3 turns or more?

Yeah, no I understand how that works. But do you understand the difference between, as you put it, "a cheap Relic" and the War Cohort formation?
Because the War Cohort formation is 3x Battle Maniple formations--which clock in at a pretty hefty amount of points. The War Cohort formation is an army, not a "cheap Relic".

Simply calling it a one use markerlight is a false equivalency.

Except that is EXACTLY what it is: One use Markerlights that cannot give Ignores Cover in an army with no Ignores Cover weaponry, period, within their list. They can subtract 2 points of Cover at maximum(Omnispex and if the target has suffered unsaved Wounds from Luminagen).

The disadvantage to markerlights? They cost points, they can be killed, they and the unit they are buffing need line of sight to the same target. What they don't do is buff every tau unit simultaneously regardless of position or target.

You know what else costs points?

Anything worthwhile. But aside from Psykers, there are no other units in the game besides Marker Drones and Pathfinders that exist solely for the purpose of synergy.

Pretending that the points cost of anything with Markerlights is excessively high or that they can be killed easily by any and all armies? That is disingenuous.

However, I was never saying markerlights were better or worse than imperatives, I saw your suggestion for changes to markerlights in the how to fix tau thread and agreed with them. You were comparing skitarii vanguards to breachers and IMO were understating the value of doctrina imperatives to prove your point. You can compare imperatives to markerlights all you want, but unless the breachers get automatic markerlights baked into their cost like vanguards do with imperatives, it's irrelevant.

It's a Tau army.

Markerlights are present in the list. Period. One of the formations that has been shown(Armoured Interdiction Cadre) even had a perk that gave them free Markerlight hits as a formation bonus.

Not all tau list use markers. The only ones I have are the ones on my remoras, and that's not really a choice. And those mostly get used to fire their missiles. If I'm not using them, than there are not markers in my normal list, I like to brute force it with close range and mass firepower. It really changes how you play.

And, I must point out, that's what the AIC used to do (and even then , they were only usable by units in that formation), we don't know if it still does that. I personally hope is get some sort of specific bonus against vehicles instead.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Not all tau list use markers. The only ones I have are the ones on my remoras, and that's not really a choice. And those mostly get used to fire their missiles. If I'm not using them, than there are not markers in my normal list, I like to brute force it with close range and mass firepower. It really changes how you play.

And, I must point out, that's what the AIC used to do (and even then , they were only usable by units in that formation), we don't know if it still does that. I personally hope is get some sort of specific bonus against vehicles instead.

One thing I never understood, is why there aren't more lists that have "hidden" Markerlights, as opposed to direct Markerlights. Things like the Fireblade have split fire with a Markerlight, the Skyray obviously has them, and you can do some fun tricks with Commander Suit groups using Target locks to get a lot of extra Markerlights on units other than those you are shooting at. It just seems weird that so many people use dedicated units to gain Markerlights as opposed to gaining them in other areas with better BS and survivability.

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Not all tau list use markers. The only ones I have are the ones on my remoras, and that's not really a choice. And those mostly get used to fire their missiles. If I'm not using them, than there are not markers in my normal list, I like to brute force it with close range and mass firepower. It really changes how you play.

And, I must point out, that's what the AIC used to do (and even then , they were only usable by units in that formation), we don't know if it still does that. I personally hope is get some sort of specific bonus against vehicles instead.

One thing I never understood, is why there aren't more lists that have "hidden" Markerlights, as opposed to direct Markerlights. Things like the Fireblade have split fire with a Markerlight, the Skyray obviously has them, and you can do some fun tricks with Commander Suit groups using Target locks to get a lot of extra Markerlights on units other than those you are shooting at. It just seems weird that so many people use dedicated units to gain Markerlights as opposed to gaining them in other areas with better BS and survivability.

I beg to differ on this front. Yeah granted the occasional unit with a hidden markerlight is pointless as no-one wants a single markerlight hit. But the commander and target locked marker lights is an extremely common unit specially with Farsight Enclaves. My Commanders unit normally runs as follows:-

Commander w/ 2 x Missile Pod, Target Lock, Drone Controller, 2 x Marker Drones
3 x XV8's w/ 2 x Missile Pods each & 4 x Marker Drones

This averages 5 marker hits whilst keeping 12 BS3 and 4 BS5 S7 ap4 shots free. Missile pods are a great weapon alongside marker drones due to range synergy. This unit is the absolute workhorse of my army.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 chalkobob wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Free army wide markerlights, that can be used to make every unit hit on 2+ or better for 3 turns minimum (4 turns with a cheap relic), without the use of a kill-able support unit that costs points and takes up a contested FoC slot.
How, exactly, are you getting "every unit hits on 2+ or better for 3 turns minimum (4 turns with a cheap relic)"?

I have encountered no Relic in the Skitarii or Cult Mechanicus book which has an effect like that. Are you referring to a Formation? Because the only Formation which grants you an additional usage of a Doctrina Imperative is the War Cohort and that is a pretty significant investment.

I play Skitarii. I know how big of a deal they can be.

My bad on the relic, Its the war cohort formation that gives the re-use. How do they hit on 2+ for 3 turns or more?

Yeah, no I understand how that works. But do you understand the difference between, as you put it, "a cheap Relic" and the War Cohort formation?
Because the War Cohort formation is 3x Battle Maniple formations--which clock in at a pretty hefty amount of points. The War Cohort formation is an army, not a "cheap Relic".

Yes I do understand the difference which is why my reply only listed 3 turns, not 4.

Simply calling it a one use markerlight is a false equivalency.

Except that is EXACTLY what it is: One use Markerlights that cannot give Ignores Cover in an army with no Ignores Cover weaponry, period, within their list. They can subtract 2 points of Cover at maximum(Omnispex and if the target has suffered unsaved Wounds from Luminagen).

No, the only similarity is BS boost, but comparing an armywide special rule that can be used to boost BS for the entire army (3 times guaranteed) to a purchasable support unit that can target one enemy (per unit purchased) is not exactly the same. Furthermore comparing the strengths and limitations of a 7 unit minidex to the strengths and limitations of an entire faction is disingenuous. When I picked up harlequins I knew it'd be limited and never expected every faction to be balanced around it. My Harlies have yet to beat my friends blood angels (too many podding flamers and storm ravens) I don't think blood angels are broken because of it. Of course if they did make harlequins, militarum tempestus, and skitarii fully fledged books with complete FoC, special characters etc etc, I would love that... but that's not the case. Not that I'm saying tau don't have balance problems, they do, but using a minidex as the standard to balance the Tau is a mistake.

The disadvantage to markerlights? They cost points, they can be killed, they and the unit they are buffing need line of sight to the same target. What they don't do is buff every tau unit simultaneously regardless of position or target.

You know what else costs points?

Anything worthwhile. But aside from Psykers, there are no other units in the game besides Marker Drones and Pathfinders that exist solely for the purpose of synergy.

Anything worthwhile but doctrina imperatives you mean? Yes this is my point, obviously breachers+pathfinders will be better than just one unit of vanguards, they cost more and should be better. Also Yes, pure synergy units may be unique, but that isn't a problem in and of itself so long as they are balanced (which admittedly I don't really think they are, hence why I agree with your changes to them). Every faction should have certain things that make them distinct.

Pretending that the points cost of anything with Markerlights is excessively high or that they can be killed easily by any and all armies? That is disingenuous.

I never pretended either one of these things, only that they cost more than nothing, and that they can be killed. Neither of which is true for doctrina imperatives. which is the comparison you invited. You asked what the disadvantages were for markerlights and I listed them. Not once did I claim they were excessively costed, or easily killed by all armies, if they were both they would never be taken competitively.

However, I was never saying markerlights were better or worse than imperatives, I saw your suggestion for changes to markerlights in the how to fix tau thread and agreed with them. You were comparing skitarii vanguards to breachers and IMO were understating the value of doctrina imperatives to prove your point. You can compare imperatives to markerlights all you want, but unless the breachers get automatic markerlights baked into their cost like vanguards do with imperatives, it's irrelevant.

It's a Tau army.

Markerlights are present in the list. Period. One of the formations that has been shown(Armoured Interdiction Cadre) even had a perk that gave them free Markerlight hits as a formation bonus.

This is erroneous. Markerlights are not mandatory. nor do I always include them. Not everyone is as competitive as possible, and if they are they don't play skitarii, they play IoM with skitarii. Comparing a competitive-as-possible Tau (an entire faction unto themselves) list to a casual mono-minidex (which by virtue of being a minidex without allies is casual by default) list is not a fair comparison.

Now before you hit reply, I can't stress this enough, I don't think it should be this way. In my idealized version of 40k, minidexes would be fully fleshed out to stand alone competitively. Unfortunately that's just not the case. The Tau codex should not be balanced around the limitations of you're skitarii codex, any more than blood angels should be balanced around the limitations my harlequins. This is a fault of the limited format of the minidexes.

Cute. Balanced enough. Not OP (except for KT) and not Under powered either, but they will really need that transport of theirs to be working.

Welp, guess I know what kit I'll advice my nephew to get next, along with some magnets

 Kanluwen wrote:

If you say that the Breaches and the Vanguard are comparable, then you are putting it very bluntly... to the point where the only things they do share are S3, T3 and a 4+ armor save .

If you cannot understand the comparison between two units that are designed as short-ranged gun fighters in an army that can go absolutely bonkers with long ranged weapons, I cannot help you.

Well, it doesn't change the fact that literally the only things they share are Strength, Toughness and their Armor Saves. Not even their unit options have any resemblance. The Vanguard is more comparable to the IG/AM Grenadier Veterans if anything as they are primarily a special weapon platform. Hell, the Vanguards have more in common with Carbine-equipped Fire Warriors.

If the Vevilfish somehow gets deepstrike in the new codex (and with those massive engines it totally should) then Breachers will be awesome, about to take out anything with a 3+ in a volley or 2 from a couple of squads on the drop.

Can some one please verify something on the charge rules against these guys. I have read in several different comment sections people saying "keep them at 6 inches and charge from there don't have to worry about overwatch at ap3". But isn't this irrelevant as thye are charging in so they are coming closer to 5 inches anyway. Wouldn't it be treated like Wall of death rules where it says not to bother measuring the template because it its successful charge then it doesn't matter anyway and if they fail its as if the flames caused them to turn back anyway?

I'd argue that you use their 5" stat, due to actually running at the gun, a la flamers, and rapid fire weapons.

Interesting unit. Not sure why they have assault weapons though

Next codex will have "Assault Marker Drones" that give you +1 Ws and +1 Attack in melee.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Interesting unit. Not sure why they have assault weapons though

Because Rapid Fire rules are garbage?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Interesting unit. Not sure why they have assault weapons though

Because Rapid Fire rules are garbage?

Still, Tau don't traditionally want to assault. I just don't see a bonus for making it Assault, especially when they already have special rules that are similar to Rapid Fire.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Interesting unit. Not sure why they have assault weapons though

Because Rapid Fire rules are garbage?

Still, Tau don't traditionally want to assault. I just don't see a bonus for making it Assault, especially when they already have special rules that are similar to Rapid Fire.

Just think of it as a shotgun.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Interesting unit. Not sure why they have assault weapons though

Because Rapid Fire rules are garbage?

Still, Tau don't traditionally want to assault. I just don't see a bonus for making it Assault, especially when they already have special rules that are similar to Rapid Fire.

It is just for convenience. Assault is the only weapon type that allows full-range high-RoF after move, so the pulse blaster ended up as an Assault weapon. Same as with the pulse carbine (another Assault weapon), really.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Interesting unit. Not sure why they have assault weapons though

Because Rapid Fire rules are garbage?

Still, Tau don't traditionally want to assault. I just don't see a bonus for making it Assault, especially when they already have special rules that are similar to Rapid Fire.

Okay, and?

The options are Assault(Move and Fire with no Penalties), Heavy(Stationary fires as normal, Move+Fire becomes Snap Shots) Rapid Fire(no penalties for Moving and Fire; additional shot when at half of your weapon's range and inability to Charge in the following Assault phase), and Salvo(Move and Fire up to half maximum range at the cost of shots, or stay stationary and fire additional shots at up to the weapon's maximum range and cannot Charge in the Assault phase in any regards).

Of those, the only one which actually does not penalize the unit significantly from acting in the role they gave it(short range skirmisher and objective holder) is Assault.

Also, there's grenades, maybe.

Mutt52 wrote:
Can some one please verify something on the charge rules against these guys. I have read in several different comment sections people saying "keep them at 6 inches and charge from there don't have to worry about overwatch at ap3". But isn't this irrelevant as thye are charging in so they are coming closer to 5 inches anyway. Wouldn't it be treated like Wall of death rules where it says not to bother measuring the template because it its successful charge then it doesn't matter anyway and if they fail its as if the flames caused them to turn back anyway?

Number of shots fired in Overwatch is determined from where the target starts the charge.

EDIT: Forgot units can't charge out of transports. Regardless, Assault weapons are unarguably better to have than any other weapon type regardless of whether you want to make use of being able to charge afterwards or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:
Back to sucking I see. I got a feeling our codex is going to be absolutely bad. Formations might not save the shanking we're taking here.

Err?

Think of Assault as the 'default' Weapon Type, given to anything lacking a specific bonus or common penalty.

Going to be just as puzzled over the whole 'take a beating' comment as well, Tau are in no danger of slipping off the High-Tier list any time soon. They might be trying a few new ideas with the Tau, and definitely trying to grab some more dollars through larger battle suit models, but it would take a lot more then that to seriously cripple them. The base codex would have to be completely re-written, for the worse, before we can say the Tau have been shanked by Game Workshop.

If anything, they are milking the Tau.

I'm in agreeance with tau being "milked" as it were. As Jinx said, barring a full rewrite with massive nerfs or point hikes Tau will retain their position. Now if they follow the trend of having points lowered and getting access to squadron benefits, I am curious how people will feel then.

Honestly, it doesn't seem like there will be a nerf to me, but it doesn't really feel like a buff either. From what we've seen so far, they are looking pretty balanced. I'd say they will probably stay upper-mid tier. Which is only a good thing IMO. The more balanced armies the better. And this way I don't have to hear quite as many people complain about tau.

Wow... the misguided misery and hate in this thread...

Poor Tau, allowed to have the option to take a cheap, AP3 Assault 2, Str 5 weapon. What jerks GW must be to force this on the poor Tau players and their struggling lists. /sarcasm

Seriously folks, objectives with MEQ on them are a thing, sorta everywhere 40k is played... how are you not connecting the dots?!

...and its not like you lost anything to get them. I'd take this weapon in a second for my Marines

 Lobukia wrote:
Wow... the misguided misery and hate in this thread...

Poor Tau, allowed to have the option to take a cheap, AP3 Assault 2, Str 5 weapon. What jerks GW must be to force this on the poor Tau players and their struggling lists. /sarcasm

Seriously folks, objectives with MEQ on them are a thing, sorta everywhere 40k is played... how are you not connecting the dots?!

...and its not like you lost anything to get them. I'd take this weapon in a second for my Marines

Pretty much exactly my thoughts on the situation. I mentioned earlier in another thread that any Space Marine player would take these in their army list due to having Drop Pods. I'm still a bit tentative on rating them one way or the other though as we really need to see what buffs (if any) the Devilfish gets. Considering that 7th Edition codices have mostly buffed the units that were previously never seen/didn't sell well - of which both apply to Devilfishes - I'm betting they'll get a big update, which will in turn make Breachers a popular unit. The fact that we are talking about a Troops choice that is designed to be a close-ranged objective-taker for Tau is just.....great. Varying their builds and making them actually move around as they should by their fluff will be great to play against from a Loyalist perspective.

 Lobukia wrote:
Wow... the misguided misery and hate in this thread...

Poor Tau, allowed to have the option to take a cheap, AP3 Assault 2, Str 5 weapon. What jerks GW must be to force this on the poor Tau players and their struggling lists. /sarcasm

Hey, check your sarcasm dude... pulse blasters are Strength 6 AP3 Assault 2 when they are close enough to the target !

Their fate is pretty much all up to the devilfish. If it gets the price drop it's needed for the last 2 codexs, this units could be solid. If not, well, than this unit is just not worth it. Not bad, but not as efficient as our other choices.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Wow... the misguided misery and hate in this thread...

Poor Tau, allowed to have the option to take a cheap, AP3 Assault 2, Str 5 weapon. What jerks GW must be to force this on the poor Tau players and their struggling lists. /sarcasm

Hey, check your sarcasm dude... pulse blasters are Strength 6 AP3 Assault 2 when they are close enough to the target !

Good catch, and Str 6 is significantly better than Str 5 vs MEQ and TEQ units.

I so hope the new Devilfish rules make them viable

Caederes wrote:
EDIT: Forgot units can't charge out of transports. Regardless, Assault weapons are unarguably better to have than any other weapon type regardless of whether you want to make use of being able to charge afterwards or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:
Back to sucking I see. I got a feeling our codex is going to be absolutely bad. Formations might not save the shanking we're taking here.

Err?

Tau are struggling? They regularly wipe the floor with everything short of Eldar. Out shooting them is impossible and getting close enough to assault is a joke. The only armies capable of fighting them are Necrons (durability) Eldar (Scatspam and Wraithbrigade) and Space Marines (Droppod spam and Skyhammer)