Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

dominuschao wrote:
They are as durable as any other av13 chassis, more-so than most due to range of their weaponry.. but I'm talking triplets. Something like this taking into account what you've said and I've seen:

chaplain jp, veritas vitae

ELITES
9 death company jp, 2 pf
5 sternguard rhino
5 sternguard rhino
5 sternguard (combat squad)

TROOPS
5 scouts

FA
5 assault marines- 2 mg, cbmelta, rhino
5 assault marines- 2 mg, cbmelta, rhino
3 bike squad 2 grav, cbgrav
3 bike squad 2 grav, cbgrav
3 bike squad 2 grav, cbgrav
rhino

HS
relic sicaran tlac, hb sponsons
relic sicaran tlac, hb sponsons
relic sicaran tlac, hb sponsons

TOTAL- 1851

1 pt over but whatever drop a cbweapon or something. I would feel fairly confident piloting this list against even the strongest lists. While I wouldn't call it favorable in many cases I think it has the tools to give a good showing. And that's even with a concession to my personal addiction to assault/counter assault units.

I know FW can make BA better, but they get less out of FW than any other list in the game, so I don't see it as worth the $$.

Unfortunately at the end of the day your again correct. There's always red marines I guess..
I'm out.

With a list like this why even play BA? Use codex space marines for access to better chapter tactics. That list is generic. The only BA unique unit here is DC and you only have the one squad. If your goal is to rhino rush why not get free ones from a battle company with chapter tactics that lend themselves to mid range shooty units.

"why even play BA?"

That sums up a lot.

Lol! Seriously though- in an edition where a lot of armies use allies, BA could still be helpful. Wouldn't a BSF loaded up with four MSU death company squads add some punch to a vanilla battle company, for example? People on dakka generally seem to agree that there are only a few good BA units to choose from, and the other marine books do everything else better.. Why not just ally the two? or ally in a knight? Or ally in inquisition? BA players have a lot of options actually, compared to an army like Nids. Is there a badge we get for playing one codex? Someone already asked why are some of us still trying to play 5th? /rant

Martel wants to get it done without allies. Chapter pride and whatnot. Moving on:

Martel732 wrote:
Even if we used maelstrom more, you think BA are going to outmaneuver DE?

Regarding objectives, you saw this post right? I do think you're at a disadvantage if objectives are irrelevant for 4 turns.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/666304.page#8176929

Loadout-wise, from past posts it seems you used mostly Plasma, Grav, Melta, Lascannons and such, right? You are going to get shut down hard by non-armour saves. Against multi-saves you're better off piling up wounds than running low AP weapons. The weapons above tend to be very expensive, and the platforms too, which makes your army smaller and hence more brittle. You will furthermore get less mileage out of modifiers like Prescience, Forewarning, FNP, Misfortune and others that relate to the size of the squad.

Have you ever considered a radically different approach? Go for Veritas Vitae, Corbulo to reroll, then infiltrate Scouts to attack ASAP. We neutralize Scatterbikes, who are faster and outrange us, by being sneakier and shooting them first. Combi-Gravs, HB and Sniper Rifles will give you a lot of range and flexibility, 2+ cover saves will give you resiliency, Obsec will deny Objectives, and having more models will protect your ICs and give you better mileage for buffs like FNP and Forewarning.

When Wraithknights show up, tarpit them with Forewarning, rather than spending 100pts for 3x Grav Bikes that will be instantly focused down by Scatterbikes in one volley. Now you can piecemeal their army or counter-charge them with a pumped up Instant Death psyker. I know Fire Baals (lol) aren't your thing but you can use them to Ram skimmers (lol) then flame both the skimmer and the embarked squad inside (lol). Get a 4++ on it so it makes it there. In fact with Prescience you're rerolling wounds which will force a lot of failed saves with a pure flamer build. Yeah there's no flexibility but is it really much worse than 3x Flamers on Tacs in a Pod?

Rework your HQ at least so you can get 2 Strat traits, Corbulo's rerolls and and 7MLs. You need to stop looking for your best units, they won't cut it. What we want now is dirty deeds, done dirt cheap!

Flamers and heavy flamers in pods vs DE open topped transports will neuter them real fast. Other than that, they're less effective at torrenting than their craftworld brethren, which is particularly noticable when our high priority targets have fnp, 2+ armor or both. Taking options to de mechanize them early on is pretty key, as once we start taking away their mobility advantage, the match becomes mind numbingly easy.

Against space wolves, if you're having trouble with a big unit of thunderwolves with several attached characters, a 10 man death co unit with Astorath should be the order of the day. At that point it just becomes who gets the charge. If they do, your death co are screwed. If you do, then you win, particularly with Baal Strike Force. With rerolls to hit and wound on the charge, 10 death co will kill an average of 4 to 5 twc on the assault.

As for the wolf shooting, it's honestly not that much more potent than ours, and usually our shooting elements have the advantage in mobility (baals/las preds that can fire on the move vs long fangs). Furthermore, our razorbacks are pretty awesome since you can move 12in and still fire las plas.

Tpiddy wrote:
Lol! Seriously though- in an edition where a lot of armies use allies, BA could still be helpful. Wouldn't a BSF loaded up with four MSU death company squads add some punch to a vanilla battle company, for example? People on dakka generally seem to agree that there are only a few good BA units to choose from, and the other marine books do everything else better.. Why not just ally the two? or ally in a knight? Or ally in inquisition? BA players have a lot of options actually, compared to an army like Nids. Is there a badge we get for playing one codex? Someone already asked why are some of us still trying to play 5th? /rant

Because all that costs $$. And by the time I spend for allies, I might as well switch armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Flamers and heavy flamers in pods vs DE open topped transports will neuter them real fast. Other than that, they're less effective at torrenting than their craftworld brethren, which is particularly noticable when our high priority targets have fnp, 2+ armor or both. Taking options to de mechanize them early on is pretty key, as once we start taking away their mobility advantage, the match becomes mind numbingly easy.

Against space wolves, if you're having trouble with a big unit of thunderwolves with several attached characters, a 10 man death co unit with Astorath should be the order of the day. At that point it just becomes who gets the charge. If they do, your death co are screwed. If you do, then you win, particularly with Baal Strike Force. With rerolls to hit and wound on the charge, 10 death co will kill an average of 4 to 5 twc on the assault.

As for the wolf shooting, it's honestly not that much more potent than ours, and usually our shooting elements have the advantage in mobility (baals/las preds that can fire on the move vs long fangs). Furthermore, our razorbacks are pretty awesome since you can move 12in and still fire las plas.

But what happens when I have the flamers against GK for example? I have to build my lists blind. Tailored suggestions don't help.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Martel wants to get it done without allies. Chapter pride and whatnot. Moving on:

Martel732 wrote:
Even if we used maelstrom more, you think BA are going to outmaneuver DE?

Regarding objectives, you saw this post right? I do think you're at a disadvantage if objectives are irrelevant for 4 turns.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/666304.page#8176929

Loadout-wise, from past posts it seems you used mostly Plasma, Grav, Melta, Lascannons and such, right? You are going to get shut down hard by non-armour saves. Against multi-saves you're better off piling up wounds than running low AP weapons. The weapons above tend to be very expensive, and the platforms too, which makes your army smaller and hence more brittle. You will furthermore get less mileage out of modifiers like Prescience, Forewarning, FNP, Misfortune and others that relate to the size of the squad.

Have you ever considered a radically different approach? Go for Veritas Vitae, Corbulo to reroll, then infiltrate Scouts to attack ASAP. We neutralize Scatterbikes, who are faster and outrange us, by being sneakier and shooting them first. Combi-Gravs, HB and Sniper Rifles will give you a lot of range and flexibility, 2+ cover saves will give you resiliency, Obsec will deny Objectives, and having more models will protect your ICs and give you better mileage for buffs like FNP and Forewarning.

When Wraithknights show up, tarpit them with Forewarning, rather than spending 100pts for 3x Grav Bikes that will be instantly focused down by Scatterbikes in one volley. Now you can piecemeal their army or counter-charge them with a pumped up Instant Death psyker. I know Fire Baals (lol) aren't your thing but you can use them to Ram skimmers (lol) then flame both the skimmer and the embarked squad inside (lol). Get a 4++ on it so it makes it there. In fact with Prescience you're rerolling wounds which will force a lot of failed saves with a pure flamer build. Yeah there's no flexibility but is it really much worse than 3x Flamers on Tacs in a Pod?

Rework your HQ at least so you can get 2 Strat traits, Corbulo's rerolls and and 7MLs. You need to stop looking for your best units, they won't cut it. What we want now is dirty deeds, done dirt cheap!

Interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Flamers and heavy flamers in pods vs DE open topped transports will neuter them real fast. Other than that, they're less effective at torrenting than their craftworld brethren, which is particularly noticable when our high priority targets have fnp, 2+ armor or both. Taking options to de mechanize them early on is pretty key, as once we start taking away their mobility advantage, the match becomes mind numbingly easy.

Against space wolves, if you're having trouble with a big unit of thunderwolves with several attached characters, a 10 man death co unit with Astorath should be the order of the day. At that point it just becomes who gets the charge. If they do, your death co are screwed. If you do, then you win, particularly with Baal Strike Force. With rerolls to hit and wound on the charge, 10 death co will kill an average of 4 to 5 twc on the assault.

As for the wolf shooting, it's honestly not that much more potent than ours, and usually our shooting elements have the advantage in mobility (baals/las preds that can fire on the move vs long fangs). Furthermore, our razorbacks are pretty awesome since you can move 12in and still fire las plas.

But Astorath is terrible. I mean awful.

We'll agree to disagree on Astorath, as I'm of the same mindset as Reecius from Frontlinegaming in thinking that he's awesome. Say what you will, but Astorath is a VERY potent anti death star tool.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/664226.page

Also, this is my favorite list at the moment. It's not the best BA list I have, but it combines being a blast to play with being fairly strong. My last game with it was actually against eldar, with my opponent using a combination of the wraith and windrider hosts. It was a couple weeks ago, but this was the general list from memory.

Spiritseer
Farseer on bike with a small warlock conclave

2x5 wraithguard with cannons in wave serpents
5x wraithguard with scythes in a wave serpent
Wraithlord with scatter lasers
Wraithknight with D cannons

3x3 scat-bikes
Vyper

Tough fight, but I managed to pull it off. Game was spearhead deployment, killpoints.

Astorath does not scale well vs good opponents, versus opponents familiar with his multiplier they will avoid the DC blob, since they are not very durable they will get shot to death.

I have had some games vs. DA, i have found AC LC Preds to be very useful as they force jink saves vs the support squadron (which everyone is running) and black knights. Even though Preds are generally bad, they don't break the bank and are mobile. Jump units won't work vs DA really unless you have a ton of LOS breaking terrain.

VS Space Wolves DC are quite good, but TWC have fleet and no charge penality, so their threat range is superior. MSU DC and try to deny multi charging seems like a good bet. But then again a good space wolf lists probably won't have TWC.

Interesting read. I don't know how your meta feels about multiple detachments, but when you said about we need to outshoot them back I got to thinking...

An alterative approach might be threat saturation. I don't have a battle scribe device (damn Windows phone) or codex to hand, so I haven't pointed this up, but consider the following as a supplement to an bike/DC/ assault detachment.

FTSF
Cheap priest
Cheap scouts
3-4 empty fast slot rhinos
3 fast vindis (or other heavy slot)

Use the empty rhinos to block los or at least give decent cover to your high threat vehicles.

Everyone knows Vindis can bring the pain if given the chance so you opponent may focus on them, giving your assault element the chance to get into position and charge.

Shame we can't do squadrons and get the bonuses, but still...could be interesting. Especially against death star centric lists...DE probably wouldn't be too phased by it though.

D

For Martel's specific case, making mono BA competitive in his gaming climate ain't going to happen.
I admire this tenacity (masochism ?) though - I gave up playing BA when the codex hit.

In reality, you have three solutions :-

1. Get allies (borrow models, use proxies if money is an issue)
2. Change your play group to a more relaxed one
3. Move away from 40K altogether - it isn't going to get balanced any time soon, and will perhaps get worse. X-Wing is cheap to start for example.

Martel732, I feel like you're being given a lot of bad advice in this thread. I'm not familiar with Space Wolves, but I am much more familiar with Dark Eldar. Apart from the MSU Death Company list idea (which sounds really effective), the lists that have been posted on this page are garbage. The relic Sicarans are a gigantic point sink that will attract Dark Lance and Haywire/Heat Lance fire like a supermagnet. The Rhino Rush list is easily outmaneuvered by fast deep-striking skimmers and the minimum troops will be drowned in poison. And all this isn't even taking Coven formations. One Grot bomb or Dark Artisan will wreck the Sicarans or drop units, and a Corpsetheif Claw will hard-counter the Rhino Rush.

Someone told you the key to winning with Blood Angels is to outshoot your opponent. That is only setting you up for failure. Blood Angels cannot outshoot Tau, Necrons, AdMech/Skitarii, Eldar or even Dark Eldar. Do you know what Blood Angels can do? They can out-assault all of the armies I listed. If you want to run competitive Blood Angels without using allies, I would suggest you focus on the units that make the army unique and strong. Death Company, grav-bikers, Mephiston, Dante, double-melta Assault Marines, fast Rhino-chassis vehicles; all of these can be used together to make a solid competitive list. It's either that or be some other army's taxi service.

I second this point. Though I will say that giving up on shooting entirely is a mistake. Various preds, grav bikes or different speacial weapon toting units in drop pods are required to do things like crack transports and/or strip hullpoints from things like knights or wounds from WKs before we assault them.

Also, I cannot stress enough how much luck I am having with multiple big units of assault marines with priests. Spamming the feth out of feel no pain with 30+ ws5 dudes who are also str5 on the charge has actually been MORE effective than death co, as the ability to lug around actual guns is pretty invaluable.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Martel732, I feel like you're being given a lot of bad advice in this thread. I'm not familiar with Space Wolves, but I am much more familiar with Dark Eldar. Apart from the MSU Death Company list idea (which sounds really effective), the lists that have been posted on this page are garbage. The relic Sicarans are a gigantic point sink that will attract Dark Lance and Haywire/Heat Lance fire like a supermagnet. The Rhino Rush list is easily outmaneuvered by fast deep-striking skimmers and the minimum troops will be drowned in poison. And all this isn't even taking Coven formations. One Grot bomb or Dark Artisan will wreck the Sicarans or drop units, and a Corpsetheif Claw will hard-counter the Rhino Rush.

Someone told you the key to winning with Blood Angels is to outshoot your opponent. That is only setting you up for failure. Blood Angels cannot outshoot Tau, Necrons, AdMech/Skitarii, Eldar or even Dark Eldar. Do you know what Blood Angels can do? They can out-assault all of the armies I listed. If you want to run competitive Blood Angels without using allies, I would suggest you focus on the units that make the army unique and strong. Death Company, grav-bikers, Mephiston, Dante, double-melta Assault Marines, fast Rhino-chassis vehicles; all of these can be used together to make a solid competitive list. It's either that or be some other army's taxi service.

Not sure they can out-assault Eldar. Two WKs can kill a lot of BA.

As to your post overall, I am in partial agreement. I have to say that I think drop melta ASM and Dante are kinda weak, though. I think the answer is likely that there is no answer, showing that BA are indeed inferior to SW and DE. Now shall we do the same for Tyranids, Orks, and CSM and show who is really on the bottom?

Martel732 wrote:
Not sure they can out-assault Eldar. Two WKs can kill a lot of BA.

Run Meph with Corbulo, he gets pumped to WS7 and I6. So with S10, Force up, and enough attacks, you can ideally down a WK or two before they strike. In fact he could probably solo a 600pt Corpsethief Claw in one assault phase with enough ID attacks. Let's see Dante do that lol.

Not much mobility but maybe you can countercharge big targets you successfully Tarpit.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not sure they can out-assault Eldar. Two WKs can kill a lot of BA.

Run Meph with Corbulo, he gets pumped to WS7 and I6. So with S10, Force up, and enough attacks, you can ideally down a WK or two before they strike. In fact he could probably solo a 600pt Corpsethief Claw in one assault phase with enough ID attacks. Let's see Dante do that lol.

Not much mobility but maybe you can countercharge big targets you successfully Tarpit.

Usually Mephy and his squad eat Eldar shooting till they are gone. Eldar players know what he can do to WKs. The Eldar's ability to shoot almost anything off the table at will makes their trump card units even trumpier.

They don't stand a chance unless you get board control.

So 220pts in Dante, or troops coming out of reserve, is not an option. You need to neutralize the Scatterbikes at the top of T1.

If you can do that, fragile punchy units like Grav Bikes/MM Bikes/Meph+Corbulo can actually get the chance to act.

Still really not seeing how BA are inferior to DE and SW at all. Nothing I have seen in this thread has changed my mind on that. DE are like more fragile eldar with less firepower, so our shooting options become more potent (particularly against their transports, which takes away their mobility) and our CC units are more likely to get into combat in meaningful numbers. Space wolves have exactly one scary unit in TWC, everything else is moderately annoying at best. Long fangs can pack a lot of firepower, but what else do they have that's so good against us? Counter attack doesn't do much when we're striking before them and the no longer get bp+bolter+ccw for free.

Also, I am in no way trying to claim that the BA dex is better than or even on par with the Eldar book, or even the marine book for that matter. I just don't think those matchups are as unwinnable as everyone seems to think.

So my position stands, we are on par with wolves, equal to or better than DE and orks, and better than chaos.

th3maninblak, I agree with you on all points except on DE and Orks. Orks are in terrible shape due to an awful codex, and DE have much more CC ability than regular Eldar. IMO Blood Angels are equal to Dark Eldar and greatly superior to Orks.

Funny, I'd put the Orks considerably ahead of the BA due to being counter-meta.

Martel732 wrote:
Funny, I'd put the Orks considerably ahead of the BA due to being counter-meta.

Yes, plus Green Tide+ Void Shields has been proven to be a very viable build

 th3maninblak wrote:
Still really not seeing how BA are inferior to DE and SW at all. Nothing I have seen in this thread has changed my mind on that. DE are like more fragile eldar with less firepower, so our shooting options become more potent (particularly against their transports, which takes away their mobility) and our CC units are more likely to get into combat in meaningful numbers. Space wolves have exactly one scary unit in TWC, everything else is moderately annoying at best. Long fangs can pack a lot of firepower, but what else do they have that's so good against us? Counter attack doesn't do much when we're striking before them and the no longer get bp+bolter+ccw for free.

Also, I am in no way trying to claim that the BA dex is better than or even on par with the Eldar book, or even the marine book for that matter. I just don't think those matchups are as unwinnable as everyone seems to think.

So my position stands, we are on par with wolves, equal to or better than DE and orks, and better than chaos.

Most BA lists I've seen do not strike before SW. That means they are dead angels. And the TWC can literally run over an entire BA list. They really don't need much else to be better.

I don't have faith in BA shooting to get through the night shields against DE. That much pretty means their transports are good to go in my view.

Now I'm convinced you just don't know how to deal with TWC. Assault them with death co at a 2 to 1 ratio after shooting at them. Problem solved. They have really never given me any trouble.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Now I'm convinced you just don't know how to deal with TWC. Assault them with death co at a 2 to 1 ratio after shooting at them. Problem solved. They have really never given me any trouble.

Good SW players never let that happen. Ever. The DC are too obvious. If you spoiling assault them, they die. Just make sure that happens and you're golden. Hell, I do that to other BA players in mirror matches. I NEVER get assaulted by DC unless I'm forcing them to assault a Rhino/razorback.

With a list like this why even play BA? Use codex space marines for access to better chapter tactics. That list is generic. The only BA unique unit here is DC and you only have the one squad. If your goal is to rhino rush why not get free ones from a battle company with chapter tactics that lend themselves to mid range shooty units.

It may be generic in that C:SM can produce most of those units but it consists of the most effective 'anti meta' units available to blood angels which was really the point. I'm not a fan of that spitball list but BA can't really produce anything arguably better.

Martel732, I feel like you're being given a lot of bad advice in this thread. I'm not familiar with Space Wolves, but I am much more familiar with Dark Eldar. Apart from the MSU Death Company list idea (which sounds really effective), the lists that have been posted on this page are garbage. The relic Sicarans are a gigantic point sink that will attract Dark Lance and Haywire/Heat Lance fire like a supermagnet. The Rhino Rush list is easily outmaneuvered by fast deep-striking skimmers and the minimum troops will be drowned in poison. And all this isn't even taking Coven formations. One Grot bomb or Dark Artisan will wreck the Sicarans or drop units, and a Corpsetheif Claw will hard-counter the Rhino Rush.

Someone told you the key to winning with Blood Angels is to outshoot your opponent. That is only setting you up for failure. Blood Angels cannot outshoot Tau, Necrons, AdMech/Skitarii, Eldar or even Dark Eldar. Do you know what Blood Angels can do? They can out-assault all of the armies I listed. If you want to run competitive Blood Angels without using allies, I would suggest you focus on the units that make the army unique and strong. Death Company, grav-bikers, Mephiston, Dante, double-melta Assault Marines, fast Rhino-chassis vehicles; all of these can be used together to make a solid competitive list. It's either that or be some other army's taxi service.

No one said the key to winning with BA was anything of the sort. I said the key to dictating the movement of the specific army he was referring to (SW) is with shooting. Without guns they have no motivation to close with the units you want and instead shoot you to pieces until they set up the assault they want. That is literally the root of the problem with BAs. They cannot effectively combine shooting with assault yet they are an assault army. Its also why dark eldar are straight better, among many other reasons. I do agree on focusing on the strengths of the book, however while this works in a vacuum it really doesn't on paper. The fact that grot bombs and dark artisan are even considered effective against fast chassis is, if anything, evidence of how bad BA are. The sicarans was an attempt at adding some power of the non allied variety but if you think they are poor you've never faced 3 and I guarantee you 3 sicarans is better than the single IK they come close to in cost (and is an ally). They can even reliably threaten flyers and FMCs and thats without the legacy.

As to your post overall, I am in partial agreement. I have to say that I think drop melta ASM and Dante are kinda weak, though. I think the answer is likely that there is no answer, showing that BA are indeed inferior to SW and DE. Now shall we do the same for Tyranids, Orks, and CSM and show who is really on the bottom?

I've always put BA dead last in the rank hierarchy. But ya agreed.

I don't have faith in BA shooting to get through the night shields against DE. That much pretty means their transports are good to go in my view.

Plus DE have superior firepower superior assault and superior movement. Its only down to durability of their troops that they fall short vs BA.

So listening to all of this, apparently it's impossible that I took down a 1500 point tournament with pure BA, facing down iron hands drop pod centurions and 2 eldar lists? This was what I took.

1500 Baal Strike Force
HQ
-Librarian
Lvl2
Gallien's Staff
Jump pack
-Mephiston
Warlord

Elites
-10x Death Company
2x power fists
Jump packs
-Command Squad
3x melta guns
3x storm shields
Drop pod

Troops
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Sgt with 2x hand flamers
Las/plas razorback
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Sgt with 2x hand flamers
Las/plas razorback

Fast Attack
-3x Bikers
2x grav guns

Heavy Support
-Baal Predator
Assault cannon
Heavy bolter sponsons
-Baal Predator
Assault cannon
Heavy bolter sponsons

What kind of idiotic Eldar players did you run into?

Th3maniblak- I do like your tac setup, pretty cool.

I have fielded several lists similar to that and get tabled by Eldar. I just don't get it.

It's too bad 40k doesn't have a replay feature!

Don't tourneys nerf Eldar?