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 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:
Yeah, but then wave 2 comes to rescue the first wave of pods. If the DE are dealing with the poders they didnt deal properly with the lr that went flat out last turn. And make sure you drop a dread. Squish little grotesque wannabe monstrous creatures.

Dreads and Land Raiders would be great...if every Dark Eldar vehicle wasn't packing at least one S8 AP2 Lance weapon. Ant that's not even touching Haywire/Heat Lance Scourges dropping in. In any case, it's often a matter of who gets the first turn and who makes the charge.

Honestly, despite what Martel732 will say, it's often an even matchup between your average Dark Eldar or Space Wolf Army and your average Blood Angel army. Where things get problematic is when you get to the highly competitive level. Blood Angels will struggle against ThunderCav/Wolfstar and things like Jimsolo's Freakshow lists (look those up; as it turns out, Harlequins are incredibly good!). But I think that mono-Blood Angels could work at that level with something like MSU Death Company with Grav Biker and character support. I'm not familiar with Blood Angels, so what would that kind of list look like? From what Martel732 has posted before, he should have the units to make a list like that.

It was the mono build for me when the codex was released

BSF

Librarian w/ JP
5x DC
5x DC
5x DC
5x DC
5x Scouts
5x Scouts
3x Bikes, 2x Grav; MM Attack Bike
3x Bikes, 2x Grav; MM Attack Bike
3x Bikes, 2x Grav; MM Attack Bike
Pred w/ AC/LC, Supercharged Engines
Pred w/ AC/LC, Supercharged Engines
Pred w/ AC/LC, Supercharged Engines

That's 1449pts before adding in DC upgrades. At 1850 I'd probably add in a Knight. It's ok, especially in Maelstrom missions in non bleeding edge games.
However it's individual components aren't that great. BA buffs require you to get the charge, most other armies buffs are always on. DC are jump assault units which are behind bikes and cavalry in the pecking order. Scouts are a tax. Bikes are better done out of the SM codex. Preds are marine mech, which are poor shooting platforms.

For the deldar.

Droppod 1. Five man sternguard squad with plasma guns & combi plas. Plas is usually the last thing id recommend but against Deldar it works better against their lower AV & AS. Throw in Mephiston & Corbulo . Thats a lot of instant death for MCs & the MC wannabes. Also alot of buffing.

Droppod 2. Five man sternguard with previous loadout. Add Librarius conclave. Some people dont like formations or allies, but we're THEE most psychic chapter in the Adeptus Astartes. Its a bizarre omission/insult that they didnt give us a Librarius Conclave. Plus all it takes is a model with a power weapon & a blue shoulder pad to make a librarian. Throw in a scroll case bit from the sprue for added effect. With an extra lvl 2 in the Conclave and its 7+d6 power dice with 4 force weapons. Plus enough buffs to rock out with your sock out.

Just thinking out loud - maybe Mephiston plus 10 assault scouts

Meph should be able to kill his challenger +1 extra TWC with his str 10, the scouts might be able to down one with weight of attacks and should be able to soak up 2 turns of wounds

Maybe?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Use that as the bait and then counter assault with the DC

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Just thinking out loud - maybe Mephiston plus 10 assault scouts

Meph should be able to kill his challenger +1 extra TWC with his str 10, the scouts might be able to down one with weight of attacks and should be able to soak up 2 turns of wounds

Maybe?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Use that as the bait and then counter assault with the DC

That sounds like a good idea, especially if they're all in a Drop Pod.

I think there's a lot of good ideas in here, and some that may very well be viable against specific opponents. But once we take away the knowledge of opponent, BA completely fall apart, imo. Which is what I'm dealing with.

So things that could go into a BA+allies freakshow list...

-Mephiston
-BA librarians rolling Sanguinary
-Crown Angelic
-Dante
-Sanguinary Guard
-Veritas Vitae (hoping for the 3 pinning test warlord trait)
-Quad mortars
-1st Company Task Force
-Librarius Conclave (for telepathy)

Now of the BA specific ones, only Mephy, librarians, the Veritas Vitae and MAYBE the crown are worthwhile. But that does give us enough to contribute to the strategy in a meaningful way, and/or form the core of the army.

Edit: Martel, the MSU list I posted was supposed to be a TAC list that shores up our weaknesses against scat bikes and the like. The other matchups aren't bad at all.

I'm liking this concept, personally. I love the thought of leadership manipulation, and I will mention that Crown Angelic does work very well and is well worth being placed on an HQ choice, especially considering it's the same cost as tossing a meltagun on a Marine.

I'm going to be stripping and re-painting my Mephiston soon, as well as building a low end Librarian with a staff that I can field at low points without the Relic Staff, or at higher points with Gallian's Staff.

Also, Veritas Vitae is great and would lend itself nicely to a Warlord Librarian as well.

I may incorporate the 1st Company Task Force into my army, but don't know if I want to field that many Veterans normally. Still a nice option for sure.

Where is that 1st Company Task Force from? The newest Space Marine codex?

Will have to see what I can come up with here on this. I'm liking what I see though.

More to come later. Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

I'm finding this ld manipulation idea interesting too. In a three source format I think the skeleton is:

Blood Angel CAD with:
Mephy
Level 2 libby with staff and veritas vitae
2-3 small death company squads
2 troops, either cc scouts or maybe tacs?

1st co task force with:
3x5 sternguard in pods with a couple combi meltas sprinkled in

Librarius conclave of 3 level 2 librarians on bikes

The conclave librarians have a lot of options for who they deploy with, and I think the list has some points left over. Ideally we'd be able to pod down with the sternguard to create bubbles of minus LD.
I think white scars tactics would fit best here, allowing us some hit and run action.

Looking into allies and methods to force various LD checks:

- Fear test (special rule or triggered effect)
- Tank shock (Morale test)
- Pinning test (Wrecked/Exploded, Pinning Fire)
- Shooting casualties (Morale test)
- Defeat in assault (Morale test)

Here are some other options using the various Imperium allies. The Culexus is noteworthy, as it denies WC generation which will stop your Witchfires being denied.

- Animus Malorum (Model removed for failing Fear, Morale, or Pinning)
- 1st Coy TF (-2 LD if within 12" of three units)
- Interromancy (Mind Worm, Seed of Fear, Trephination, Mindwipe)
- Culexus (-3 LD to Psykers, Psyk-Out Grenade, No WC generation)
- Enkomi (Minotaurs - Intimidating Presence trait)
- Sororitas Command Squad (Condemnor Bolters to force Perils)
- Inquisition (Orbital Psi-shock, Psychotroke grenades, Daemonbane - Coteaz)

Also just realized that enemy units have to be within 12" of three units from the 1st company task force to take the penalty...

Inquisitor Jazzhands wrote:
Also just realized that enemy units have to be within 12" of three units from the 1st company task force to take the penalty...

But this counts drop pods. Trust me, after using the heck out of this formation in a dozen or so games, it's really NOT that hard to pull off.

Oh in that case that's actually pretty good.

I want to call this burgeoning list "Are you afraid of the dark?"

So far I've got:
BA CAD:
Libby, level 2, staff and veritas
Mephiston
2x5 death company with a fist each
2x5 CC scouts
3x3 grav bikers with combi on sgt

1st co. task force
2x5 sternguard in pods with 3 combi melta each
1x5 sternguard in pod with 2 combi plasma

Librarius conclave
3 level 2 librarians on bikes

Where is the 1st co. task force from? Is it only Sternguard in pods or are Vanguard Veterans an option for one of the three units?

Also, as an aside, That Task Force can in theory have more of a leadership negative bubble or even multiple bubbles if you field one or even two of the Sternguard squads as ten man, then combat squad them out once they disembark. That's 3 units there, the Pod plus two five man combat squads.

Do that, plus two more five man Sternguard Squads in a pod each, or even better, two ten man squads in pods that each break into combat squads and then a 5 man Jump Pack equipped VV Squad to fill out the formation with Storm Shields and attach a BA Librarian to the VV with a jump pack and deep strike them in, or run them up the flank the Pods are going to land in and start casting fear of the darkness on turn 2 if you're in range. Does that -2 Leadership bubble to enemy units stack if you have two 3 unit sections of the formation with their 12" range overlapping a single target? If not, no biggy, but that could be heinous to hit a unit with -4 LD then shoot them, forcing a morale save.

Certainly gives new options for a tournament list that few peope would be prepared for. Of course fearless units and stubborn units are immune to this trick but that's not a terribly common rule outside of DA. Fearless is a bit more common though.

I'm liking this Gives some cool angles of attack that many would not see or expect.

Thoughts to ponder. Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Where is the 1st co. task force from? Is it only Sternguard in pods or are Vanguard Veterans an option for one of the three units?

Also, as an aside, That Task Force can in theory have more of a leadership negative bubble or even multiple bubbles if you field one or even two of the Sternguard squads as ten man, then combat squad them out once they disembark. That's 3 units there, the Pod plus two five man combat squads.

Do that, plus two more five man Sternguard Squads in a pod each, or even better, two ten man squads in pods that each break into combat squads and then a 5 man Jump Pack equipped VV Squad to fill out the formation with Storm Shields and attach a BA Librarian to the VV with a jump pack and deep strike them in, or run them up the flank the Pods are going to land in and start casting fear of the darkness on turn 2 if you're in range. Does that -2 Leadership bubble to enemy units stack if you have two 3 unit sections of the formation with their 12" range overlapping a single target? If not, no biggy, but that could be heinous to hit a unit with -4 LD then shoot them, forcing a morale save.

Certainly gives new options for a tournament list that few peope would be prepared for. Of course fearless units and stubborn units are immune to this trick but that's not a terribly common rule outside of DA. Fearless is a bit more common though.

I'm liking this Gives some cool angles of attack that many would not see or expect.

Thoughts to ponder. Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

The 1st Company Task Force can basically be composed of 1-4 of any vanilla marine elite choice, so Vanguard Vets sould be an option. A jump Pack Librarian would go well them. The only problem is that you don't get the assuredness of Drop Pod Assault.

Sadly the bubble does not stack for models within the formation, as the rule is specific to the entire formation. To get the rule to stack, you would need an extra copy of that formation or a formation with the same special rule (DE/Harlequin Freakshows are build around this concept, as Coven formations force -1 Leadership on the enemy).

I can definitely see these sorts or tactics as effective against things like Scatbikers, as they only have Leadership 8. With the penalty in place and the low model count of Scatbiker units, it should not be heard to cause enough casualties for them to run off the board.

Be aware that all Gargantuan Creatures and most deathstars are Fearless and therefore immune to these penalties. Blood Angels also don't have any access to any means of causing wounds based on Leadership, i.e. Psychic Shriek.

My theoretical concept list, no points here, just spitballing.

BA CAD - Baal Strikeforce

-Librarian w/ Jump Pack, Veritas, Gallian's Staff, Jump Pack.
-Mephiston (Or Captain w/ Crown Angelic, Jump Pack & Valor's Edge for lower points games/no Special Characters)

-Tactical Squads in Locator Beacon Drop Pod ( 5 man) - Heavy Flamer, Sergeant w/ Combiflamer & Meltabombs.

-Tactical Squad in Locator Beacon Drop Pod (5 man) Same as above

-Assault Squad (5 man squad) Jump Packs, 2x Meltaguns, Sgt. w/ Melta Pistol x 2

-Assault Squad (5 man) Same as above

-Death Company (5 man squad) Jump Packs, 1x Fist & Bolter, 4xChainswords & Bolt Pistols

-Death Company (5 man squad) Same as above, only Locator Beacon Pod instead of Jump Packs

-Storm Raven Gunship for Anti Air & possible transport of a unit for mid game charges (Jump Pack Death Company with Mephiston perhaps?)

1st Co. Strike Force Formation:

-Sternguard (10 man squad) 4x Combimelta, Meltabomb Sgt, riding in a Pod (Combat Squads on deploy,12" -2 LD bubble w/ Pod)

-Sternguard, (10 man squad) 4x Combigrav, Meltabomb Sgt, riding in a Pod (Combat Squads on deploy, -2 LD bubble w/ Pod)

-Vanguard Veteran Squad (5 man Squad) 5x Storm Shields & Sgt w/ Power weapon (Or Fist) & Meltabombs.



I like this concept. The Librarian Conclave is nice and all but I prefer One Detachment & one Formation max in my list building.

Lots of options and places to put the characters as well as turn 1 dropping the hammer of Sternguard in two drop pods with a third one landing to help out with fire where it's needed if a tactical squad, or disgorge Death Company to be a distracting unit otherwise.

May try and work on this shortly. I'm digging it.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

The 1st Company Task Force can basically be composed of 1-4 of any vanilla marine elite choice, so Vanguard Vets sould be an option. A jump Pack Librarian would go well them. The only problem is that you don't get the assuredness of Drop Pod Assault.

Sadly the bubble does not stack for models within the formation, as the rule is specific to the entire formation. To get the rule to stack, you would need an extra copy of that formation or a formation with the same special rule (DE/Harlequin Freakshows are build around this concept, as Coven formations force -1 Leadership on the enemy).

I can definitely see these sorts or tactics as effective against things like Scatbikers, as they only have Leadership 8. With the penalty in place and the low model count of Scatbiker units, it should not be heard to cause enough casualties for them to run off the board.

Be aware that all Gargantuan Creatures and most deathstars are Fearless and therefore immune to these penalties. Blood Angels also don't have any access to any means of causing wounds based on Leadership, i.e. Psychic Shriek.

Yea, sadly the Psychic shriek trick is not one we can capitalize on without allying in other non BA librarians. Still, hitting up to four units with some form of leadership check at - 2 is pretty devastating and then following that up on subsequent turns with further checks after that (Fear of the Darkness) at - 4 Leadership. Cackle as you watch units tuck tail and run away from you and off the board potentially.

It certainly has merit, especially against the 'top tier' lists most people bemoan facing with Blood Angels such as Eldar, Tau, or Vanilla Marine lists. For added hilarity, add in a Culexus Assassin infiltrating in near some psykers for even more LD shenanigans (God forbid a Seer Council on jetbikes.. - 5 LD with the task force and Cullexis anyone?)

It's different. I like it.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Its 3-5 for the 1st co formation not 1-4. FYI Newblood. Although your advice is pretty spot on

Also allying a librarius conclave with 3 jump pack ml2 librarians would provide telepathy and whatever else you need.

Also that relic that gives fear and the negative value to leadership would be great if you put I onto a BA librarian as he casts leadership debuffs.

Although this is slipping more and more into superfriends category.


Edit I am too tired I absoultely knew that themaninblak I'm just posting my stupidity.

It's actually 3 to 5 various veteran units, including terminators.

So let's try this on for size.

1850
Baal Strike Force
HQ
-Mephiston
Warlord
-Librarian
Terminator Armor
Storm Shield
Ml2
Force axe
The Crown Angelic

Elites
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist

Troops
-5x Scouts
Close combat weapons
Camo cloaks
Melta bomb
-5x Scouts
Close combat weapons
Camo cloaks
Melta bomb

Fast Attack
-5x Bikers
2x grav guns
Combi grav

1st Company Task Force Formation (Imperial Fists)
-5x Sternguard
2x combi melta
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
2x combi melta
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
2x combi plasma
Drop pod

Librarius Conclave Formation (White Scars)
-Librarian
Force axe
Bike
Ml2
-Librarian
Force Axe
Bike
Ml2
-Librarian
Force axe
Bike
Ml2

All the biker libbys roll telepathy and join the death co squads. Mephiston and the other libby roll sanguinary. And then the leadership bombing begins.

 th3maninblak wrote:
It's actually 3 to 5 various veteran units, including terminators.

So let's try this on for size.

Spoiler:

1850
Baal Strike Force
HQ
-Mephiston
Warlord
-Librarian
Terminator Armor
Storm Shield
Ml2
Force axe
The Crown Angelic

Elites
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist

Troops
-5x Scouts
Close combat weapons
Camo cloaks
Melta bomb
-5x Scouts
Close combat weapons
Camo cloaks
Melta bomb

Fast Attack
-5x Bikers
2x grav guns
Combi grav

1st Company Task Force Formation (Imperial Fists)
-5x Sternguard
2x combi melta
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
2x combi melta
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
2x combi plasma
Drop pod

Librarius Conclave Formation (White Scars)
-Librarian
Force axe
Bike
Ml2
-Librarian
Force Axe
Bike
Ml2
-Librarian
Force axe
Bike
Ml2

All the biker libbys roll telepathy and join the death co squads. Mephiston and the other libby roll sanguinary. And then the leadership bombing begins.

Looks good to me. generating 8 +d6 warpcharges generally casting on a 3+ should be pretty nasty with all those leadership debuffs.

Maybe go with the dark angels libby conclave instead for interromancy - this should work better with the leadership reduction. Also, formation will let them cast mind worm at double range. Plus Ezekiel will give whatever squad he joins +1 attack.

Actually the list generates d6+11 warp charges. 6 from the conclave, 2 from the BA libby and 3 from Mephiston. That's a good bit of psychic power floating around. Also, I made Mephiston the warlord because at least in my area, everyone seems to be slinging Psychic Screams, Eldritch Storms and Enfeebles left and right. Being able to deny the witch on a 4+ or even 3+ with a minimum of 12 dice in the pool is huge.

Obviously this list has some bad matchups. Battle Companies are actually a good matchup vs BA, but here we don't have quite the anti light armor saturation to truly fight through it. Daemons and Daemonkin, with their high number of fearless units, will also be problematic. But bike armies of any kind basically fold to this, including eldar. And various deathstar armies can be dealt with in a big way if we manage to take them down a notch before they get invisibility off.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Plus Ezekiel will give whatever squad he joins +1 attack.

From what I know, it's only DA models within 6".

Interromancy has some great powers on it though. Mind Worm + Psychic Shriek can potentially stack a lot of wounds on tougher models, and as they are both Primaris Powers, you're never going to be stuck with useless choices. With the 1st Coy TF modifier, that's a -5LD debuff (so a Fearless GMC could be stun-locked with Dominate).

So potentially, a Conclave of three DA librarians instead of White Scars could give us a lot more potential of abusing leadership, but it loses us Hit and Run characters for our Death Company.

Inquisitor Jazzhands wrote:
So potentially, a Conclave of three DA librarians instead of White Scars could give us a lot more potential of abusing leadership, but it loses us Hit and Run characters for our Death Company.

Yes, and I'm not convinced that interromancy is better here than telepathy. This is why I used white scars over DA. Furthermore, 3 highly mobile dudes with access to Psychic Scream gives us something to do with all our leadership penalties vs armies that are immune or resistant to morale abilities. A fearless centurion star or superfriends unit won't be ran off the table by Fear of the Dark, and will laugh off a -2 or -4 fear test, but 3 separate screams against a now ld8 unit can be very potent.

I need 3 bikers to actually build this list (the librarians specifically) but my roommate plays DA, so I can see if he'll let me borrow some of his bikes to proxy for this list on Saturday.

Is it worth it to give them bikes when your going to stuff them in units with majority T4 anyways?

So, leadership tricks from allied units? Hmmm. Doesnt this rely on your opponents deploying close to their table edge? I like outta the box thinking, but this strategy seems to rely on them failing a morale check & running off a table edge. What can we do to encourage them deploying near a table edge? Because most of my opponents dont tend to fear BAs over much.

Maybe a vindi could scare them back a bit? A vindicator isn't a bad choice anyways.

 Red Marine wrote:
So, leadership tricks from allied units? Hmmm. Doesnt this rely on your opponents deploying close to their table edge? I like outta the box thinking, but this strategy seems to rely on them failing a morale check & running off a table edge. What can we do to encourage them deploying near a table edge? Because most of my opponents dont tend to fear BAs over much.

Maybe a vindi could scare them back a bit? A vindicator isn't a bad choice anyways.

No one wants to get assaulted by death co. Particularly not when they have hit and run and an extra force axe in the unit.

None of that would stop me if I saw LD shenanigans. There's always sacrificial units for the DC and units that can outfight them. Vindicators are also very mediocre as they have no way to ignore cover.

Martel732 wrote:
None of that would stop me if I saw LD shenanigans. There's always sacrificial units for the DC and units that can outfight them. Vindicators are also very mediocre as they have no way to ignore cover.

I agree about Vindicators. The points are better spent elsewhere i.e. on Death Company. To my knowledge, the only units that can outfight Death Company are dependent on getting the charge.

Keep in mind that these Leadership shenanigans could work well in assault too, especially for forcing Initiative tests for Sweeping Advances on non-Marine armies. The look on a Necron player's face when their entire blob of Warriors simply evaporate from losing combat...