Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Red Marine wrote:
What can we do to encourage them deploying near a table edge?

With all the leadership shenanigans in the list you could probably just mind-control your opponent if your roll high enough.


Seriously though, why would you want to deploy closer to Death Company? Your opponent wil probablyl think that they can sit back and shoot at you while you come up the board because you have so many cc units.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
None of that would stop me if I saw LD shenanigans. There's always sacrificial units for the DC and units that can outfight them. Vindicators are also very mediocre as they have no way to ignore cover.

I agree about Vindicators. The points are better spent elsewhere i.e. on Death Company. To my knowledge, the only units that can outfight Death Company are dependent on getting the charge.

Keep in mind that these Leadership shenanigans could work well in assault too, especially for forcing Initiative tests for Sweeping Advances on non-Marine armies. The look on a Necron player's face when their entire blob of Warriors simply evaporate from losing combat...

That or casting Fear of the Dark on a giant unit of necron warriors with several characters attached when they're in the 1CTF leadership bubble and watching them run off the table. That happened in a tournament recently. That conversation was hilarious.

Me: "So what are their defenses like?"
Opponent: " They have a 4+ armor, 5++ invulnerable save, a 4+ reanimation protocol, and they reroll 1s on those."
Me: "So... they're unkillable? But not fearless?"
Op: "Yeah basically."
Me: "Take a leadership test at -4. If you fail you run."
Op: "I fail and fall back... off the table. Are you serious?"
Me: "Ha. Haha. Yeahh."

Fear of the Dark alpha strike was something that was massively underutilised in the 5th ed codex for it's potential vs certain armies.
It was something that people only let you get away with once though

I may have missed it, but has anyone discussed how we deal with these issues below 1850?

You can field the 1st Co. Task Force with a minimal squad/unit of 3x 5 man Sternguard in Drop Pods. Alternatively if you're trying to get 3x Drop Pods turn one (requiring five in the list total) You can do this plus 2x tactical squads in drop pods for your CAD troops requirement and you're set to bring in two Sternguard pods from the formation, plus one with tactical marines and a B.A. Librarian (And/or Mephiston) attached in the third pod. You then land them all in the same general area and get the -2 leadership bubble on a target or two, then cast Fear of the Darkness on whatever unit is in range and watch a unit suffer -4 LD penalty for their morale check.

A 5 man sternguard Squad is 110 points base, plus a couple of combi weapons, and a Drop Pod, comes to 165 Points. Three of these added together is 495 points. In a 1500 point list that's about a third of the army, but you can easily get a Librarian and two tactical squads in pods for less than 400, leaving you around 600 points to plug in Death Company or whatever else you might care to work in. You could also, if desired, purchase a Command Squad/Honor Guard to attach the Librarian to and put those in a drop pod instead of one tactical squad. Then if you're really interested in maxing out the damage output ally in a vanilla Librarian that's attached to the BA honor Guard & BA Librarian for Psychic Shriek on a different unit than the one the BA Librarian hits with the Fear of the Darkness power. You'll just have to pay a 'tax' of a small tactical or scout squad from the Vanilla marine codex. Nothing earth shaking for sure. It's not the full blown leadership manipulation/trick bag one can get at higher point levels but you could probably build a functioning list at 1500 easily. 1250 would be a stretch but possibly doable, though difficult and I doubt there'd be room in there for the allied Librarian + tactical squad from the Space Marine codex.

More thoughts to ponder for later. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

All good points Thirst. I guess what I'm trying to see is how can this sort of tactic be applied to 1250 and lower (1000). The basis for the overall discussion might make this question a pointless one, requiring 1500+ lists in order to work, I was just curious how others are dealing with the same troublemaker armies at lower point brackets.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Dreads and Land Raiders would be great...if every Dark Eldar vehicle wasn't packing at least one S8 AP2 Lance weapon. Ant that's not even touching Haywire/Heat Lance Scourges dropping in. In any case, it's often a matter of who gets the first turn and who makes the charge.

I know this was posted a few pages ago, but I want to come back to it. It seems to me that people vastly overestimate DE anti-tank ability.

I mean, let's take that Dreadnought example. S8 AP2 is really awful against AV12, because you're getting no bonus from Lance, and (statistically) by the time you get an Explosion result, you'll have killed it 3 times over in Hull Points - making the AP2 equally worthless. Anyway, it takes 9 Dark Lance shots to kill that Dreadnought. This is either 375pts of Ravagers or else 540pts of Raiders. And, the former represents the DE player's entire complement of Heavy Support slots. If the Dreadnought is obscured (or has a 5++), then you're looking at 12 Shots - which will typically require the aforementioned 375pts of Ravagers plus an additional 180pts of Raiders (555pts). So, something as simple as killing a dreadnought is now requiring the DE player to invest 555pts! And, of course, this assumes that none of the Ravagers were forced to Jink (or even shot down). Moreover, bear in mind that the DE player will also want to be using lances to rack transports open - otherwise all those venoms can do nothing but twiddle their thumbs.

Scourges are a bit better, but take up valuable FA slots and rarely get the chance to shoot twice (24" is not a happy range for such fragile units ). And, if the BA player uses drop pod units with flamers or such, then the scourges probably won't even get to shoot once. Granted, the DE can put them in reserve - but that puts even more strain on his pitiful Dark Lances to do all the heavy-lifting in the early game.

Furthermore, DE have virtually no meltas and very little in the way of grenades - so if a Dreadnought is dropped into their backfield, it is unlikely to be in much more danger than if it was on the other side of the board (cover not withstanding).

Finally, don't forget that - unlike most other races - DE have virtually no melee units that can even scratch a dreadnought in melee, let alone hope to kill one. Even the mighty grotesques are useless against AV12+, and the most their HQs can offer is a single Haywire Grenade.

TLDR whilst I probably wouldn't advise taking Land Raiders, don't dismiss the value of other vehicles - especially dreadnoughts - against DE. Despite what people seem to think, they're starved for anti-tank weapons; and the vast majority of their weapons can't even scratch vehicles (especially in melee). Really, once any scourges and ravagers are dead or crippled, they have virtually nothing that can seriously threaten vehicles.

This is the kind of discussion that needs to happen more often. Problem solving, list building, constructive criticism, well thought out arguments, etc. Definitely a good thread.

I think that at 1500 and below, BA don't really need as much help. We can still reach a critical mass of fast moving, threatening and hard hitting units while other armies have to tone back on their absurdity. I still don't think that we need much help vs DE, orks, SW, most marine lists, most nid armies, AM and crons. Mainly just against death stars and eldar.

Anyone tried flamer baal preds against eldar scat bikes?

Str 6 ap3, ignores cover and av 13 so immune to scatbike fire.

Possibilities?

Just not sure they have been given a chance yet in the current meta.

The Fist Company Task Force that people have been talking about, i don't know if its been said but the fear effect appears to work if the enemy is within 12" of any UNIT. This means transports. With 5 pods carrying 5 man sternguard squads thats 10 freaking units. Its 800 points, but your enemys drowning in terrifying debuffs. By just hitting any unit in their entire deployment zone a little, just a little, they could fail a morale check turn one, & flee. Hell, 5 storm bolters can help with the little pin prick thats necessary. I advocate for dw launchers any alpha strikes too.

 th3maninblak wrote:
This is the kind of discussion that needs to happen more often. Problem solving, list building, constructive criticism, well thought out arguments, etc. Definitely a good thread.

I think that at 1500 and below, BA don't really need as much help. We can still reach a critical mass of fast moving, threatening and hard hitting units while other armies have to tone back on their absurdity. I still don't think that we need much help vs DE, orks, SW, most marine lists, most nid armies, AM and crons. Mainly just against death stars and eldar.

I still don't see how you can not see the SW as a bane of the BA. They out shoot us and out fight us. As it has been for a long time now. Even below 1500 pts, the BA lack of true quality units still makes this codex awful. We only have situationally good units, and that just doesn't cut it in 7th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Anyone tried flamer baal preds against eldar scat bikes?

Str 6 ap3, ignores cover and av 13 so immune to scatbike fire.

Possibilities?

Just not sure they have been given a chance yet in the current meta.

Flamer Baals are better against Black Knights because KNights lack the range of the scatterlaser. The scatbikes will get on your side and then you die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Marine wrote:
The Fist Company Task Force that people have been talking about, i don't know if its been said but the fear effect appears to work if the enemy is within 12" of any UNIT. This means transports. With 5 pods carrying 5 man sternguard squads thats 10 freaking units. Its 800 points, but your enemys drowning in terrifying debuffs. By just hitting any unit in their entire deployment zone a little, just a little, they could fail a morale check turn one, & flee. Hell, 5 storm bolters can help with the little pin prick thats necessary. I advocate for dw launchers any alpha strikes too.

As Bartali said, this might work once. And then it's done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Dreads and Land Raiders would be great...if every Dark Eldar vehicle wasn't packing at least one S8 AP2 Lance weapon. Ant that's not even touching Haywire/Heat Lance Scourges dropping in. In any case, it's often a matter of who gets the first turn and who makes the charge.

I know this was posted a few pages ago, but I want to come back to it. It seems to me that people vastly overestimate DE anti-tank ability.

I mean, let's take that Dreadnought example. S8 AP2 is really awful against AV12, because you're getting no bonus from Lance, and (statistically) by the time you get an Explosion result, you'll have killed it 3 times over in Hull Points - making the AP2 equally worthless. Anyway, it takes 9 Dark Lance shots to kill that Dreadnought. This is either 375pts of Ravagers or else 540pts of Raiders. And, the former represents the DE player's entire complement of Heavy Support slots. If the Dreadnought is obscured (or has a 5++), then you're looking at 12 Shots - which will typically require the aforementioned 375pts of Ravagers plus an additional 180pts of Raiders (555pts). So, something as simple as killing a dreadnought is now requiring the DE player to invest 555pts! And, of course, this assumes that none of the Ravagers were forced to Jink (or even shot down). Moreover, bear in mind that the DE player will also want to be using lances to rack transports open - otherwise all those venoms can do nothing but twiddle their thumbs.

Scourges are a bit better, but take up valuable FA slots and rarely get the chance to shoot twice (24" is not a happy range for such fragile units ). And, if the BA player uses drop pod units with flamers or such, then the scourges probably won't even get to shoot once. Granted, the DE can put them in reserve - but that puts even more strain on his pitiful Dark Lances to do all the heavy-lifting in the early game.

Furthermore, DE have virtually no meltas and very little in the way of grenades - so if a Dreadnought is dropped into their backfield, it is unlikely to be in much more danger than if it was on the other side of the board (cover not withstanding).

Finally, don't forget that - unlike most other races - DE have virtually no melee units that can even scratch a dreadnought in melee, let alone hope to kill one. Even the mighty grotesques are useless against AV12+, and the most their HQs can offer is a single Haywire Grenade.

TLDR whilst I probably wouldn't advise taking Land Raiders, don't dismiss the value of other vehicles - especially dreadnoughts - against DE. Despite what people seem to think, they're starved for anti-tank weapons; and the vast majority of their weapons can't even scratch vehicles (especially in melee). Really, once any scourges and ravagers are dead or crippled, they have virtually nothing that can seriously threaten vehicles.

You can't load up on dreads, though, because there are too many other armies that trivially own them. If you need to list tailor to be effective, that's the sign of an awful codex.

Martel732 wrote:
You can't load up on dreads, though, because there are too many other armies that trivially own them. If you need to list tailor to be effective, that's the sign of an awful codex.

Fair enough, but I was just pointing out that the presence of Dark Lances - especially on transports - really shouldn't discourage you from taking dreads and such.

Martel732 wrote:

I still don't see how you can not see the SW as a bane of the BA. They out shoot us and out fight us. As it has been for a long time now. Even below 1500 pts, the BA lack of true quality units still makes this codex awful. We only have situationally good units, and that just doesn't cut it in 7th.

A couple of questions:

1) Doesn't I5 on the charge help against SWs in melee?

2) What makes SWs so much better at shooting than BAs?

(Sorry if either of these are silly, but it's been ages since I last played against either of these armies and I'm struggling to remember their defining rules/units.)

Martel im curious as to why you think this would only work once. Im curious to know how you avoid 10, TEN drop pod units that fall accuratley into your deployment zone.

Hold in reserve? Then walk into turn 2, PIECEMEAL. Castle up? Bubble wrap? Fine. I'll COMPLETELY surround you & hose you down with heavy flamers, str5 large blast templates & 2+ poison ammo.

Also, our army is jam packed, overflowing in elite jump pack infantry with INITIATIVE 5. How are you not getting the jump on team jacob? And at ws5 to boot.

 vipoid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can't load up on dreads, though, because there are too many other armies that trivially own them. If you need to list tailor to be effective, that's the sign of an awful codex.

Fair enough, but I was just pointing out that the presence of Dark Lances - especially on transports - really shouldn't discourage you from taking dreads and such.

Martel732 wrote:

I still don't see how you can not see the SW as a bane of the BA. They out shoot us and out fight us. As it has been for a long time now. Even below 1500 pts, the BA lack of true quality units still makes this codex awful. We only have situationally good units, and that just doesn't cut it in 7th.

A couple of questions:

1) Doesn't I5 on the charge help against SWs in melee?

2) What makes SWs so much better at shooting than BAs?

(Sorry if either of these are silly, but it's been ages since I last played against either of these armies and I'm struggling to remember their defining rules/units.)

I take one or two frag dreads depending on the list. Always one or two.

Not all BA lists have I5 charges. Especially those build around Flesh Tearer Strike Force. SW will also spoiling assault your best units with TWC .

SW Grey Hunters get double special weapons and frequently alpha strike with drop pods. Unlike most drop lists, assaulting them as a retributive strike is not a very effective solution. That and I believe long fangs are more efficient than any BA heavy weapon platform. It's really more of a function of BA shooting being miserable than SW shooting being amazing.

Except Warriors are going to be in Ghost Arks and, if not, are probably just hitting the minimum 10 so they can bring more Auxiliary choices.
Plus trying to say "sweep them!" doesn't work thanks to how RP works now. Warriors will ignore wounds 75% of the time with regular attacks.

As a competitive Necron player, I'm telling you that you'll either not catch the Warriors (Ghost Ark) or that the player doesn't care what happens because they just needed to fulfill the Reclamation requirements.

 Red Marine wrote:
Martel im curious as to why you think this would only work once. Im curious to know how you avoid 10, TEN drop pod units that fall accuratley into your deployment zone.

Hold in reserve? Then walk into turn 2, PIECEMEAL. Castle up? Bubble wrap? Fine. I'll COMPLETELY surround you & hose you down with heavy flamers, str5 large blast templates & 2+ poison ammo.

Also, our army is jam packed, overflowing in elite jump pack infantry with INITIATIVE 5. How are you not getting the jump on team jacob? And at ws5 to boot.

If it's a drop army, there's no reason at all to deploy close to the table edge, unless the list is castling.

A list castling with transports neuters this ploy just as badly as it neuters GK shunt lists. Eldar can castle with WKs and WS, shielding their bikers. Eldar can also successfully reserve their bikes if necessary with reserve manipulation.

Countering a drop list is all in deployment. This scheme will probably do okay against average players, but knowledgeable, meticulous players will neuter it.

As I pointed out above, not all BA lists have I5. Furthermore, it only goes off we assault. If SW assault us, we die. If we assault them w/o I5, we die. If we fight TWC in anyway, we die.

How are you so afraid of TWC? They're point for point offensively less powerful than death company, only slightly more mobile, and their only true advantage is in durability. For 6 points more than the price of one thunderwolf you get 2 death co. For the same cost as 5 thunderwolves with storm shields and 1 fist you get 10 death co with special weapons or 5-7 sanguinary guard with a priest. And what units from wolves outshoot us besides long fangs anyways? Razors? Ours are better. Preds? Nope, ours are still better. Wolfy wolf jets? Ok fair enough, but that's a significant chunk of points to put into reserve.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
None of that would stop me if I saw LD shenanigans. There's always sacrificial units for the DC and units that can outfight them. Vindicators are also very mediocre as they have no way to ignore cover.

I agree about Vindicators. The points are better spent elsewhere i.e. on Death Company. To my knowledge, the only units that can outfight Death Company are dependent on getting the charge.

Keep in mind that these Leadership shenanigans could work well in assault too, especially for forcing Initiative tests for Sweeping Advances on non-Marine armies. The look on a Necron player's face when their entire blob of Warriors simply evaporate from losing combat...

This is what my previous post should've quoted. Darn phone...

 th3maninblak wrote:
How are you so afraid of TWC? They're point for point offensively less powerful than death company, only slightly more mobile, and their only true advantage is in durability. For 6 points more than the price of one thunderwolf you get 2 death co. For the same cost as 5 thunderwolves with storm shields and 1 fist you get 10 death co with special weapons or 5-7 sanguinary guard with a priest. And what units from wolves outshoot us besides long fangs anyways? Razors? Ours are better. Preds? Nope, ours are still better. Wolfy wolf jets? Ok fair enough, but that's a significant chunk of points to put into reserve.

TWC are so much better than DC if they are assaulted. BA advantages are all conditional. Conditions that aren't always true. Plus, the rending is invaluable against things like WKs, against which DC need expensive equipment like powerfists. And the durability advantage is so huge in 7th. Sanguinary guard are basically a no-go in a tac list. Too much AP 2 in the game.

Unfortunately, the advantage that grey hunters have over tacs and long fangs have over our heavy slots adds up quickly and decisively. BA don't have the long range firepower like Eldar, Tau or IG to punish the fragile Long Fangs.

I'm afraid because the SW players in my group are experts and always make sure that the TWC are in the right position vs BA. Because our benefits are conditional.

Martel732 wrote:

Not all BA lists have I5 charges. Especially those build around Flesh Tearer Strike Force. SW will also spoiling assault your best units with TWC . SW Grey Hunters get double special weapons and frequently alpha strike with drop pods. Unlike most drop lists, assaulting them as a retributive strike is not a very effective solution. That and I believe long fangs are more efficient than any BA heavy weapon platform. It's really more of a function of BA shooting being miserable than SW shooting being amazing.

Ah, I see. Thanks for clarifying.

 th3maninblak wrote:
How are you so afraid of TWC?

I don't play BAs, so take this however you want, but I can honestly say that every army I play is afraid of TWC + TWC Lord.
- They're naturally fast (so no avoiding them or slowing them down by destroying their transport).
- At T5 and 2 wounds apiece they're insanely durable for their cost. And, with SSs they avoid 2/3 of hits that might concern them otherwise (e.g. plasmaguns).
- Moreover, with a Wolf Lord leading them and tanking wounds on a 2+ save, they're also incredibly resilient to weight of fire.
- Finally, if the above wasn't bad enough, they also hit like trucks. At base, they have 6 S5 Rending attacks on the charge (5 with a SS). That's insane. It means they can take on just about anything and expect to come off well, as well as letting them chew through virtually any tarpit in the game. And, bear in mind, this is without weapons. When you add in S7 Rending power mauls, S10 power fists, S6 Wolf claws with Rending and Shred etc. they just get even more silly.

Also, as a DE player, it's rather depressing that a single Thunderwolf is just 2/3 of the cost of my cheapest HQ, whilst being faster, vastly more durable and significantly better in combat. You'd think perhaps that the balance would tip back to my HQs once you account for gear...
...nope.

So, really, unless you play Eldar or Wraith-spam Necrons, I think you're well within your rights to be fearful of TWC.

Lol I am well aware of their staline and combat capabilities.

Martel, so you're trying to say that the reason you're afraid of TWC is because your opponent is denying your advantages gained from charging by charging you first? That sounds less like army superiority and more like you are getting outplayed. Both units move 12in a turn, the difference is that they ignore the terrain penalty when charging and we can reroll failed charges if we choose to use our packs in the assault phase. And what exactly are the advantages they incrementally accrue via grey hunters? Dual specials instead of a special+heavy? I suppose so.

And I'm not convinced that longfangs are straight up superior to our fast tanks. Yes, they put out a lot of firepower for a relatively low amount of points. But they also have almost no mobility.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Lol I am well aware of their staline and combat capabilities.

Martel, so you're trying to say that the reason you're afraid of TWC is because your opponent is denying your advantages gained from charging by charging you first? That sounds less like army superiority and more like you are getting outplayed. Both units move 12in a turn, the difference is that they ignore the terrain penalty when charging and we can reroll failed charges if we choose to use our packs in the assault phase. And what exactly are the advantages they incrementally accrue via grey hunters? Dual specials instead of a special+heavy? I suppose so.

And I'm not convinced that longfangs are straight up superior to our fast tanks. Yes, they put out a lot of firepower for a relatively low amount of points. But they also have almost no mobility.

Sigh. BA don't move 12" if you want to reroll assaults. And ignoring terrain penalty is HUGE because they don't have to roll for random movement and they don't get -2 to assault range. All that has to be true is that there is a GH squad between the DC and the TWC and the TWC will always get the charge off because the DC will have to assault the GH first. Another huge difference is the assault proficiency of GH over tacticals or scouts. It all works together to put BA at a huge disadvantage against SW.

48" weapons don't require mobility, it's just a nice perk. And dual specials are much nicer than special/heavy.

Every possible TAC config for BA that I can think of is at a massive disadvantage against most SW lists.

Still not seeing it. BA scouts in a baal strike force (which is becoming more and more invaluable as time goes on) will beat GH on the charge. Fragnoughts are also awesome at dealing with long fangs, as are Baal preds (though that's more risky).

Can you give me an example of the wolf lists you're losing to?

Edit: and I am well aware that we do not move 12 and then reroll charges. But the option is there as an advantage for jump packs.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Still not seeing it. BA scouts in a baal strike force (which is becoming more and more invaluable as time goes on) will beat GH on the charge. Fragnoughts are also awesome at dealing with long fangs, as are Baal preds (though that's more risky).

Can you give me an example of the wolf lists you're losing to?

Edit: and I am well aware that we do not move 12 and then reroll charges. But the option is there as an advantage for jump packs.

Pretty simple stuff; GH in pods/rhinos, TWC, long fangs, and maybe a dread with a fancy shield. All their stuff is just better.

The scouts won't beat them on the charge after the GH light them up for a turn or two.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Still not seeing it. BA scouts in a baal strike force (which is becoming more and more invaluable as time goes on) will beat GH on the charge. Fragnoughts are also awesome at dealing with long fangs, as are Baal preds (though that's more risky).

Can you give me an example of the wolf lists you're losing to?

Edit: and I am well aware that we do not move 12 and then reroll charges. But the option is there as an advantage for jump packs.

I'm just curious if you actually did the math for this or just saying it happens.

10 close combat scouts with camo cloaks will deal 3.33 unsaved wounds to grey hunters on the charge before they get hit back. The hunters will kill around 2 on the back swing if we are doing equivalent points or 3.5 if we just do 10v10. So a 120-130 point unit effectively fights a 160+ point unit on the charge. Seems like a win to me.

I'm working on a Wolf list based on the parameters Martel laid out so we have an example to break down and discuss tactics with.

 th3maninblak wrote:
10 close combat scouts with camo cloaks will deal 3.33 unsaved wounds to grey hunters on the charge before they get hit back. The hunters will kill around 2 on the back swing if we are doing equivalent points or 3.5 if we just do 10v10. So a 120-130 point unit effectively fights a 160+ point unit on the charge. Seems like a win to me.

I'm working on a Wolf list based on the parameters Martel laid out so we have an example to break down and discuss tactics with.

It won't be 10 vs 10. Ever. The Grey Hunters have 24" guns.

Martel732 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
10 close combat scouts with camo cloaks will deal 3.33 unsaved wounds to grey hunters on the charge before they get hit back. The hunters will kill around 2 on the back swing if we are doing equivalent points or 3.5 if we just do 10v10. So a 120-130 point unit effectively fights a 160+ point unit on the charge. Seems like a win to me.

I'm working on a Wolf list based on the parameters Martel laid out so we have an example to break down and discuss tactics with.

It won't be 10 vs 10. Ever. The Grey Hunters have 24" guns.

So the Grey Hunters will spend their time shooting at scouts instead of things that matter? Sweet! Is it my birthday and no one told me?

 th3maninblak wrote:
10 close combat scouts with camo cloaks will deal 3.33 unsaved wounds to grey hunters on the charge before they get hit back. The hunters will kill around 2 on the back swing if we are doing equivalent points or 3.5 if we just do 10v10. So a 120-130 point unit effectively fights a 160+ point unit on the charge. Seems like a win to me.

I'm working on a Wolf list based on the parameters Martel laid out so we have an example to break down and discuss tactics with.

Did we include Special Weapons and if both squads have 2 CCW's, and Overwatch?

 th3maninblak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
10 close combat scouts with camo cloaks will deal 3.33 unsaved wounds to grey hunters on the charge before they get hit back. The hunters will kill around 2 on the back swing if we are doing equivalent points or 3.5 if we just do 10v10. So a 120-130 point unit effectively fights a 160+ point unit on the charge. Seems like a win to me.

I'm working on a Wolf list based on the parameters Martel laid out so we have an example to break down and discuss tactics with.

It won't be 10 vs 10. Ever. The Grey Hunters have 24" guns.

So the Grey Hunters will spend their time shooting at scouts instead of things that matter? Sweet! Is it my birthday and no one told me?

What exactly matters in a BA list, again? Maybe you thought we had actual threats else where in the army.