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BTW, I was just looking at the codex and realized my Tact Sgt with Combi-Plasma and bolt pistol is illegal. You can't trade a bolter for a combi. Its got to be the pistol. Oh GW good job.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
BTW, I was just looking at the codex and realized my Tact Sgt with Combi-Plasma and bolt pistol is illegal. You can't trade a bolter for a combi. Its got to be the pistol. Oh GW good job.

Hah! Score one for CSM! Only Champions of Chaos can pay ten points to upgrade their bolters and keep three attacks base!

I think it might be time to focus on the new elephant in the room: the new Tau codex and its associated formations. In short, deathstars are out and MSU is in. Fortunately, Tau are one of the few armies that is very vulnerable to Leadership shenanigans.

Martel732 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Bikes should also be on that list. While they're not as good as their white scar or ravenwing counterparts, having furious charge and either red thirst or the chance for rage on a fast moving unit is never bad. Plus they make use of the concussive USR from grav better than the other chapters do.

I am a little salty that Raven Guard got a formation that lets them assault from deep strike. Way to go, GW.

Only a little? They published a BA codex that is best used as wallpaper, and then gave vanilla marines assault from DS. BA bikes aren't bad, but vanilla and ravenwing bikers are so much better.

The assaulting from DS in the SM codex didn't sit well with me; it just seemed to me like the BA fluff warrants this and would be fitting in game play. I drop pod flamer-heavy Sternguard to take out anything AP4 or worse (5 templates as an alpha strike isn't bad at all), but having the ability to charge in and finish a unit off just seems so BA to me.

Regarding some of the other comments, I keep my melta ASM with jump packs and DS them in. A small unit that can be annoyingly disruptive if they jump around and lock up another unit.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
BTW, I was just looking at the codex and realized my Tact Sgt with Combi-Plasma and bolt pistol is illegal. You can't trade a bolter for a combi. Its got to be the pistol. Oh GW good job.

Replace Boltgun with chainsword. Replace chainsword with combo-plasma.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
BTW, I was just looking at the codex and realized my Tact Sgt with Combi-Plasma and bolt pistol is illegal. You can't trade a bolter for a combi. Its got to be the pistol. Oh GW good job.

Replace Boltgun with chainsword. Replace chainsword with combo-plasma.

Thank you, but I'm not going to rebuild him because GW's writers are careless.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
BTW, I was just looking at the codex and realized my Tact Sgt with Combi-Plasma and bolt pistol is illegal. You can't trade a bolter for a combi. Its got to be the pistol. Oh GW good job.

Replace Boltgun with chainsword. Replace chainsword with combo-plasma.

Thank you, but I'm not going to rebuild him because GW's writers are careless.

you don't have to. I was showing you how your dude is still legal.

More stuff with allies.

BA (BSF?)

Sang Priest w/ Angels Wing
10x TH/SS Terminators
DC to taste
Stupid scout tax

GK (NSF)

Librarian Lvl 3 w/ Liber
Squad of strikes/ Terminators
2x Dreadknights w/ Teleporters and guns to taste

The core of the army is the TH/SS Terminators with potentially 2+/2++ (Sanctuary)/FNP. Highly mobile with potentially Gate (include Draigo for guaranteed Gate) and Angels Wing for re-roll scatter.
I'n not going to claim it's a world beater, but it's one of the many options with allies. I think half of the problem with BA is that no one has explored the options with allies

Going back to the post by Drasius:

WK are fearless and you're going to struggle to be in range of any -Ld shenanigans after you get out of your pods against jetbikes or warspiders.
Its probably best to reorient your psychic disciplines to the threat as needed. Jetbikes and Spiders are targets though, along with prime targets like Necrons, DE and Tau.

You don't have enough psychic dice to achieve much of anything against eldar, so good luck with getting more than 1 power off let alone anything that has synergy
Valid point, BA are not a psychic powerhouse. Even dual CAD is maximum 8/9+D6 WC. However, as noted BA *do* possess the finest taxi service in the Imperium -- maybe a Culexus would help shore up this weakness? The -3LD penalty to Psykers is gravy.

Your IC's are all either too slow to matter or too fragile and the main issue is that some people on here refuse to use allies, so there are very few synergies to exploit
Transport options like bikes and JPs will help mobility issues, bonuses like MTC/Fleet can help too. Fragility means you will need a solid retinue to hide in.

Eldar have access to 51 point ObSec troops that can move across the board at a moments notice. They can and will out MSU you.
51pt Shurkien Jetbikes will struggle against a 45pt Rhino! Scatterlasers are a different story. Eldar bikes obviously have the mobility and firepower advantage here, you need to hit them at their weak point (fragility). Easier said than done.

Reserves tactics when AFAIK, BA don't have any reserve manipulation beyond the ability to buy a coms relay and hope for the best when rolling a warlord trait.
BA get 2 Strat traits, Dante does reserves reroll + scatter, Kaarlen does reserves rerolls, Cobulo gets one too I think? Plus there are the FW HQ tanks and Damocles Rhino, and a few BA formations with rules. So I don't know how it fits together but there are more options than ADL w/Comms.

Your unit abilities are limited to FNP, +1 I and some special short range weapons.
Scouts alone get Infiltrate+Scout move, I would not include weapons here. Drop Pod Assault is big as Null Deployment counts as a form of adaptation. 2 Strat traits gives a decent chance of extra infiltrators as well as reserves disruption, the BA table is limited so I'd avoid getting locked into it.

I'm not saying your points are invalid, but let's look at how to overcome them. When BA get their buff one day, all that creativity and critical thinking will have made everyone stronger players.

Practicing a bit of thread necromancy here, but the only person I was able to get a game in against yesterday was my friend who plays nurgle daemons. I was using my revised MSU list with 2 librarians. This was his new list.

2 GUOs, lvl3, biomancy, rewards
2x6 plague drones
2x3 nurglings
2 soul grinders with phlegm
2x2 beasts of nurgle

We played Maelstrom, dawn of war deployment where you always have 3 maelstrom objectives. We had a bit of discrepancy in luck this game, with him rolling +1 invulnerable save on the warpstorm table for 2 consecutive turns and making a significant number more saves than he should, and with me hitting a soul grinder with 2 out of 6 combi meltas, losing lots of stuff to dangerous terrain, etc. Even so, the list was VERY powerful and was able to make up for having a run of bad luck.

2 lvl2 librarians usually gives you enough warp charges to get stuff done, and having 2 guys with a bunch of potentially instant death attacks is also pretty clutch. The veritas vitae was pretty great, snagging me concqueror of cities and night attacker (saving a bunch of dudes from turn 1 battle cannon shots), and the Gallien's Staff libby was able to consistently cast powers despite being down 4 warp charges to 6.

While fear of the dark was useless, the 1CTF combined with 20 death co meant that even if I only won combat by 1-3, it meant that my enemy was usually losing a significant number of models to daemonic instability. The other powers I rolled (shield, lance, wings) were all very useful and added a huge amount of utility to my MSU death co.

Final verdict on the game was 9vp to 7, victory for the Angels.

If you have the models, I would strongly suggest trying this list.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
BTW, I was just looking at the codex and realized my Tact Sgt with Combi-Plasma and bolt pistol is illegal. You can't trade a bolter for a combi. Its got to be the pistol. Oh GW good job.

Replace Boltgun with chainsword. Replace chainsword with combo-plasma.

Thank you, but I'm not going to rebuild him because GW's writers are careless.

you don't have to. I was showing you how your dude is still legal.

You'll excuse me I was being dense.

Is that legal? That seems sketchy to me.

Doesn't matter anyway. I don't do pick up games anymore, so my friends will allow me to anyway. Plus, the new Raven Guard/White Scars rules are making want to quit all together.

Why raven guard/ white scars?

He's referring to free formation bonuses from the new campaign book.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Practicing a bit of thread necromancy here, but the only person I was able to get a game in against yesterday was my friend who plays nurgle daemons. I was using my revised MSU list with 2 librarians. This was his new list.

2 GUOs, lvl3, biomancy, rewards
2x6 plague drones
2x3 nurglings
2 soul grinders with phlegm
2x2 beasts of nurgle

We played Maelstrom, dawn of war deployment where you always have 3 maelstrom objectives. We had a bit of discrepancy in luck this game, with him rolling +1 invulnerable save on the warpstorm table for 2 consecutive turns and making a significant number more saves than he should, and with me hitting a soul grinder with 2 out of 6 combi meltas, losing lots of stuff to dangerous terrain, etc. Even so, the list was VERY powerful and was able to make up for having a run of bad luck.

2 lvl2 librarians usually gives you enough warp charges to get stuff done, and having 2 guys with a bunch of potentially instant death attacks is also pretty clutch. The veritas vitae was pretty great, snagging me concqueror of cities and night attacker (saving a bunch of dudes from turn 1 battle cannon shots), and the Gallien's Staff libby was able to consistently cast powers despite being down 4 warp charges to 6.

While fear of the dark was useless, the 1CTF combined with 20 death co meant that even if I only won combat by 1-3, it meant that my enemy was usually losing a significant number of models to daemonic instability. The other powers I rolled (shield, lance, wings) were all very useful and added a huge amount of utility to my MSU death co.

Final verdict on the game was 9vp to 7, victory for the Angels.

If you have the models, I would strongly suggest trying this list.

Hey if its not too much trouble could you post the list you used?

Martel732 wrote:
Why raven guard/ white scars?

Raven Guard just became the best jump assault army on the game.

No scatter automatic turn 1 jump pack vanguard assault with up to 3 squads of vanguard.

 Silverthorne wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why raven guard/ white scars?

Raven Guard just became the best jump assault army on the game.

No scatter automatic turn 1 jump pack vanguard assault with up to 3 squads of vanguard.

Since when?

Because I have always loved Ravenguard, and this would be fantastic.

Raven Guard & White Scars

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/667898.page#8214269

Talon Strike Force (Gladius style formation)

Know When to Strike: Units from this Detachment that are arriving from Reserve can choose to attempt to arrive on turn 1. Make a Reserve roll for any units you choose; on a 4+ they arrive.

Shadowstrike Kill Team
2-4 Scouts
1-3 Vanguard Veterans w/ Jump Packs

On time...: VVs from this Formation units can choose to pass or fail Reserve Rolls.

...On Target: VVs from this Formation can charge on the turn they Deep Strike. They do not scatter if they are placed within 9" of at least 2 of the scout squads from this Formation.

@Chaosmarauder: I posted it a few pages back but here it is again.

Primary Detachment Baal Strike Force
HQ
-Librarian
ML2
Gallien's Staff
Jump pack
-Librarian
ML2
Force sword
Jump pack
Veritas Vitae

Elites
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist

Troops
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Sgt with 2 hand flamers
Las/plas razorback
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Sgt with 2 hand flamers
Las/plas razorback

Fast Attack
-5x Bikers
2x grav guns
Combi grav

1st Company Task Force Formation
Imperial Fists chapter tactics

-5x Sternguard
3x combi melta
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
3x combi melta
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
3x combi plasma
Drop pod

How did you tactical s in that list perform? any high points with them?

 AdeptusAwesome wrote:
How did you tactical s in that list perform? any high points with them?

They really helped against the Plague Drones, actually. Both units charged into my deployment zone pretty early on, so bailing the tac marines out and dumping a bunch of templates on them actually worked pretty well. Granted, it didn't wipe them out (6 drones is hard to shift) but it definitelt softened them up so my death co could finish them off.