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Does this mean I might actually be able to beat Tau now with BA?

Davor wrote:
Wait. We are complaining that Tau suck even before the codex is released? Just look what happened last time. Codex was released, Tau was boring and sucked.

It is Dakka where every codex is either completely discounted or wishlisted to death before it sees the light of day. The people doing the former are then thrilled because their favorite book is actually better than all that. The latter are never pleased because there is no way that GW will EVER meet the wishes of those people in a given book.

As with everything I will wait and see what the book looks like before complaining about it.

Tau seem to already be pretty damn good without the updated codex. They really ought to focus on the armies that are in need of serious help, not the ones that can already stand on their own two feet.

I'm all about the nerf bat coming down on Tau however.

Only the Riptide needed the bat.

A thread where people jump to conclusions when the release and all the rules aren't out? Unheard of. Might wanna wait for the army selection bonuses you get by adhering to the Tau "decurion."

Next to that I can't fathom where someone got the idea of Tau being worse off than before. Getting new units nerfs an army when they weren't there before? Unlogical. Say Tyranids got a new unit suddenly, does it make them nerfed? Doesn't make any sense.

Tau is getting more powerful than they were before.

Well the first wave of rule leaks are out and they are all bad for the Tau.

Coldstar commander CANNOT take iridium armor, no other bonuses, and his "upgraded burst cannon" is 18", 5/5, 6 shot TL.

pathfinders are the same cost

Devilfish is 80 points (WAY too much still)

and on the modeling side, each set of 3 crisis suits only contain 4 of each weapon, so that may mean no more doubling up the same weapons (or have to try and find extra weapon bits)

notredameguy10 wrote:

and on the modeling side, each set of 3 crisis suits only contain 4 of each weapon, so that may mean no more doubling up the same weapons (or have to try and find extra weapon bits)

IIRC, this is an improvement, as so far it was 1 weapon of each/suit.

Otherwise, this is pretty much "news at 11" category: nothing changes and a flavorful option is really just a flavorful option (what a shock!).

LOL a few comments about this being Dakka. For a moment I thought I was on Wineseer for a moment.

Have all of us on Warseer been banned and flocked to Dakka?

The Crisis Suits always came with one of each weapon, which is rather annoying since a kit of three currently provides me with enough weapons for 1.5 Crisis Suits.

 Gamgee wrote:
First Codex leaks are out. We're nerfed. :(

Our formations will have to be stupid broken to make us competitive.

[Citation Needed]

Yes where are these new codex leaks? or are they more WD leaks?

Unsurprisingly there is no actual information, this thread has been a bunch of bull-gak from the start

For those of you looking for the new leaks: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/10/breaking-codex-tau-damocles-rules.html

Tau wasn't nerfed, it just didn't get some changes that could have been good for it. Such as reduced Devilfish costs and some changes to the Pathfinders.

So nothing substantial, just BOLS bs?

notredameguy10 wrote:

and on the modeling side, each set of 3 crisis suits only contain 4 of each weapon, so that may mean no more doubling up the same weapons (or have to try and find extra weapon bits)

Poor Tau players, they only get at least one of every single unit option in their new kit...

Meanwhile there's some of us who don't even get 50% of our unit's basic options in our basic kits.

Until we see the formations, reports of the demise of Tau are premature.

 kronk wrote:
Until we see the formations, reports of the demise of Tau are premature.

I'm pretty sure Tau could get a formation that let's them auto-win on a 1+, and it still wouldn't be enough to satisfy some people.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Until we see the formations, reports of the demise of Tau are premature.

I'm pretty sure Tau could get a formation that let's them auto-win on a 1+, and it still wouldn't be enough to satisfy some people.

I'm pretty sure I have "some people" on ignore, so feth them.

 kronk wrote:
Until we see the formations, reports of the demise of Tau are premature.

Their formations can be literal potatoes and they'd still not be a bad army at this point. Tau are a tier 1.5 army not because they aren't good, but because they have too much difficulty with Deathstars. Though even then the second place finish in the Nova Open was a Tau'dar army, heavy on the Tau.

Makumba wrote:

You don't normalise the entire rest of the game in the direction of the outlier. You tweak the outliers back in line with the majority. Elder need nerds, is simple as that. If they don't get nerds, making a couple of other armies just as OP to compete with them just throws out balance even further.

When was it the last time GW made eldar bad, when they got a new codex ? Oh yes, never. So the only way to get any form of balance is not to hope that one day GW will nerf eldar and that is good that other armies are weaker, but to give all other armies good enough rules to play vs eldar, and other armies. I don't see the logic of weaker armies bringing more balance to the game, when we know that when the time comes for eldar to get a new book it will be powerful again.

By the same logic, when have GW ever released a really OP Dex, and then released all the subsequent codexes and had them ALL be on the same power level as the current strongest one? Never, and they never will. The fact is, even if Eldar is buffed FURTHER next Dex, it's still a good thing if the rest of the game is balanced as sensibly as possible amongst itself. Just because they choose to make games completely unbalanced in one matchup for the rest of the game, doesn't mean we need two or three ridiculous match ups making it even more unbalanced, just because Kelly has a hard on for his Eldar and is incapable of winning games with fair odds. In fact, considering that what we both agree on here is that GW will always keep Eldar strong from this point, if by some outlandish possibility the entire rest of the cast which is Fairly Well balanced amongst itself as is, was all buffed up to Eldars level, then you know the next Eldar Dex they'd just shave like a third of the points off everything and 1-up the case again. Eldar sits where it does because this is what they've decided is where they should sit balance wise for them, 1 Dex could be a mistake, 2 in a row means it's cemented until direction/management changes. If they decided everything needed a power ramp, there's no reason to believe they wouldn't include Eldar in it too. What you are doing is just power creeping.

Regardless, it's beside the point, because one outlier is better than two or three, and Tau coming back down a little and improving like 10 match ups balancewise does more for balance overall than just throwing it out the window in regards to the rest of the game, just to put them on even footing with the outlier, which just... Creates another outlier.

 SHUPPET wrote:

By the same logic, when have GW ever released a really OP Dex, and then released all the subsequent codexes and had them ALL be on the same power level as the current strongest one? Never, and they never will. The fact is, even if Eldar is buffed FURTHER next Dex, it's still a good thing if the rest of the game is balanced as sensibly as possible amongst itself. Just because they choose to make games completely unbalanced in one matchup for the rest of the game, doesn't mean we need two or three ridiculous match ups making it even more unbalanced, just because Kelly has a hard on for his Eldar and is incapable of winning games with fair odds. In fact, considering that what we both agree on here is that GW will always keep Eldar strong from this point, if by some outlandish possibility the entire rest of the cast which is Fairly Well balanced amongst itself as is, was all buffed up to Eldars level, then you know the next Eldar Dex they'd just shave like a third of the points off everything and 1-up the case again. Eldar sits where it does because this is what they've decided is where they should sit balance wise for them, 1 Dex could be a mistake, 2 in a row means it's cemented until direction/management changes. If they decided everything needed a power ramp, there's no reason to believe they wouldn't include Eldar in it too. What you are doing is just power creeping.

Regardless, it's beside the point, because one outlier is better than two or three, and Tau coming back down a little and improving like 10 match ups balancewise does more for balance overall than just throwing it out the window in regards to the rest of the game, just to put them on even footing with the outlier, which just... Creates another outlier.

I dunno. For plenty of armies, every book after Necrons was a case of the opposition suddenly getting much stronger.

Eldar are not the only outlier in this edition. There's HexFlyrants, Centstars, Thunderdome, War Convocation with BS taxi service, Gladius, and plenty more. What makes Eldar different is thatthey can be just as powerful without having to use allies shenanigans.

All of the things I listed are example of things being above the power curve of 7th edition. Tone down the offending units in every case, meaning Scatbikers, D-weapons, and Wraihtknights for Eldar, and things start to look much better in terms of balance.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
So nothing substantial, just BOLS bs?

Yeah, I don't see how 4 bullets on BoLS equals "Codex sucks!". :X

 Gamgee wrote:
I fully support the new Tearwall. I might buy a Stormsurge now because of it. It all depends on if it gets save. I got my Tearwall in the first few seconds of it being online. Muhahaha.

Plethora of ignores cover. Now you're wall and models are crying. So easy to come by

Oh wow, Tau get buffed and all the players can do is whine. Tell you what, I will swap my Chimeras for your Devilfish. For a mere 25 points more I am going from being a tracked 12/10/10 12 man capacity tank with two useless guns to being a skimmer with 12/11/10, some actual firepower, way more accuracy and a few other minor buffs. I am now faster, can sacrifice my shooting to get a 3++ save, can boost to go even faster, ignore most terrain when moving over it, can actually provide fire support for my troops and no longer have to worry about basic infantry shooting me to death from the flanks.

Tau are NOT bad. It is doubtful that they WILL be bad. We have not seen the full codex yet so quit your whining and grow a pair.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Oh wow, Tau get buffed and all the players can do is whine. Tell you what, I will swap my Chimeras for your Devilfish. For a mere 25 points more I am going from being a tracked 12/10/10 12 man capacity tank with two useless guns to being a skimmer with 12/11/10, some actual firepower, way more accuracy and a few other minor buffs. I am now faster, can sacrifice my shooting to get a 3++ save, can boost to go even faster, ignore most terrain when moving over it, can actually provide fire support for my troops and no longer have to worry about basic infantry shooting me to death from the flanks.

Tau are NOT bad. It is doubtful that they WILL be bad. We have not seen the full codex yet so quit your whining and grow a pair.

Yep. I hardly imagine Tau are going to be the CSM of 7th.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Oh wow, Tau get buffed and all the players can do is whine.

The only actual buff I've seen was the Piranha getting +1 BS base. The rest of the codex is apparently not changing much if any and the new units we already have rules for.
But HRR, stealth suits, sniper drone teams, Kroot hounds outside the first, Krootox, Kroot shapers, Vespid, Devilfish, Hammerheads (especially since a fortification apparently does the same job better), and the fighter/bomber still have a huge risk of being fairly unusable. Adding in some new units that are mostly over costed kits doesn't really fix the problem. Especially since drones are going to cost $12 for a pair.

Tell you what, I will swap my Chimeras for your Devilfish.

This is the silliest argument that gets repeatedly used. Devilfish are limited to three units that can go inside them. Firewarriors, Kroot, and Pathfinders. Kroot have deployment options and can't take it dedicated. Pathfinders and firewarriors both suffer drawbacks from being embarked due to their long range and pathfinders having heavy weapons. The devilfish costs twice as much as the minimum squad size.

You also forgot to mention units capable of going in your transport thanks to the allies rule.

And again, just because the chimera is bad does not mean that other transports have to be good by default. If you're going to complain at least be logically consistent with it.

For a mere 25 points more I am going from being a tracked 12/10/10 12 man capacity tank with two useless guns to being a skimmer with 12/11/10, some actual firepower, way more accuracy and a few other minor buffs.

debatable on what you consider actual firepower. The range is limited to 18". More accurate? It's BS3 and the drones are T/L BS2, but I'm guessing you're assuming this is all BS5 and ignoring cover with no consideration for the cost of support units.

, can sacrifice my shooting to get a 3++ save

So you took the disruption pod without factoring in the extra 15 points?

Tau are NOT bad. It is doubtful that they WILL be bad. We have not seen the full codex yet so quit your whining and grow a pair.

Stop being insulting. Your arguments are half thought out and ignore key issues with transports, ie what units can go inside. You throw in upgrades and buffs as if they were free. To top it all off you routinely fall back to whining about how bad your army has it. So right back at you, quit whining and grow a pair.

A, its a skimmer, it can jink
B, good call, I had forgot that Tau where not auto BS 5 ignores cover. So in other words my BS is the same but my firepower has increased.
C, Actually the only units that we have which can purchase a transport are Command Sections, Infantry Sections (regular and Veteran) and Scion Sections. Oh and Ogryns but who actually uses them?
D, And tau cant have allies because?...
E, I am not being insulting, I am merely pointing out the fact that Tau are no where near as worse off as certain people keep trying to tell us they are.
F, and BTW you have just been given the Stealthtide and the Biggertide. Those units are considered buffs, given their stats.

Problem with the Devilfish is that it is priced fairly accordingly to its stats and weapons but what it has is a mix of being a medium combat vehicle and a transport when most people want one or the other. As a transport for Fire Warriors its incredibly expensive for a "go to point A to B" vehicle. For a Combat vehicle it has some firepower but it doesn't really do anything that other Tau units do. Also passengers can't shoot out of the vehicle so it is wasting all that shooting potential when they stay inside the fish. Fire Warriors are also cheap, have long range shooting, and lack special weapons that it becomes a case of buying a very expendable unit a fairly expensive transport it doesn't really need all that much. Pathfinders have zero synergy with the Devilfish given the pathfinder's purpose to be a markerlight source which is heavy.

So having new options and variety, with the addition of the formation selection bonuses that are still coming ontop of those = army nerfed?

Not even worth it to make it more apparent how unlogical this is so I guess so I'll just leave it there...

Just saw some new pictures.

No changes to markerlights as far as I can tell. Guess I won't be playing Tau for some time (unless other things are nerfed).