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DaPino wrote:
Just saw some new pictures.

No changes to markerlights as far as I can tell. Guess I won't be playing Tau for some time (unless other things are nerfed).

What needed to change with Markerlights..?

 master of ordinance wrote:
A, its a skimmer, it can jink

Jink provides a 4+ cover with Disruption pod (15 points extra) adding +1 to that.

C, Actually the only units that we have which can purchase a transport are Command Sections, Infantry Sections (regular and Veteran) and Scion Sections. Oh and Ogryns but who actually uses them?

But you're not counting ally abuse. For example the DE fast open topped skimmers that Eldar can readily use.
Tau have no options outside of Kroot, Firewarriors, and Pathfinders to consider for this. The Chimera can have other units embarked on it. Is there any unit that could embark on this transport and gain a notable benefit?

D, And tau cant have allies because?...

Battle Brothers to be specific. AM have lots and lots. Tau have 1 that is not affected at all since they have Devilfish as well.

E, I am not being insulting, I am merely pointing out the fact that Tau are no where near as worse off as certain people keep trying to tell us they are.

You referred to complaints as whining and that people who complain can grow a pair. This is done after doing a fair bit of whining yourself in literally the exact same manner.

F, and BTW you have just been given the Stealthtide and the Biggertide. Those units are considered buffs, given their stats.

The Stormsurge occupies a LoW slot and the Ghostkeel the elite slot. All Tau FOC slots are very thin in options and it's nice to receive any. However the elite slot has a stealth unit that is not getting fixed to be usable and the Stormsurge really doesn't do anything besides advocate a static style of play and gunlining that is often complained about by other players. The Stormsurge's firepower is rather balanced for what it is, but if the Ion Accelerator isn't toned down it doesn't really correct key issues with the army.

The addition of new units that can be used and have a legitimate role in an army is fine. However there are still plenty of units that needed rules tweaking to be worth taking. This is a problem game wide. This is a problem that is fair to voice and should not be accepted as the norm.

DaPino wrote:
Just saw some new pictures.

No changes to markerlights as far as I can tell. Guess I won't be playing Tau for some time (unless other things are nerfed).

[Citation Needed]

 Vryce wrote:

What needed to change with Markerlights..?

ignore cover is honestly too good for 2 tokens and in my opinion it actually hinders opponent choices in a bad way.

One proposed change that I like is that 2 tokens removes cover granted by terrain. That way units that pay for things like stealth and shroud get the bonus and units can go to ground but both are still hindered.

Maybe make an option to use more markers or for HQs to grant ignore cover, but as it is currently it's just slightly excessive.

DaPino wrote:
Just saw some new pictures.

No changes to markerlights as far as I can tell. Guess I won't be playing Tau for some time (unless other things are nerfed).

Considering that we only have poor-quality translations from the German version, I'm calling BS on your "evidence".

 Vryce wrote:

DaPino wrote:
Just saw some new pictures.

No changes to markerlights as far as I can tell. Guess I won't be playing Tau for some time (unless other things are nerfed).

What needed to change with Markerlights..?

Only issue I can see is how 2 markerlights can ignore 2+ worth of cover saves but honestly with how easy it is to kill most markerlight sources it isn't a huge deal (and I say this as an Ork player).

 Vankraken wrote:

 Vryce wrote:

DaPino wrote:
Just saw some new pictures.

No changes to markerlights as far as I can tell. Guess I won't be playing Tau for some time (unless other things are nerfed).

What needed to change with Markerlights..?

Only issue I can see is how 2 markerlights can ignore 2+ worth of cover saves but honestly with how easy it is to kill most markerlight sources it isn't a huge deal (and I say this as an Ork player).

Good, cover saves are too strong and to easy to get.

I say old chaps, do any of you happen to be in possession of blurry, low-qualite photographic images of these Codex statistics? Because it would be jolly well and good if the fine citizens of DakkaDakka would give me such materiel.

 Vryce wrote:

DaPino wrote:
Just saw some new pictures.

No changes to markerlights as far as I can tell. Guess I won't be playing Tau for some time (unless other things are nerfed).

What needed to change with Markerlights..?

The god damn ignores cover on 2 markerlights needed to change.
If they'd just change it to -1 cover for each markerlight spent, it would be so much better. On models without stealth/shrouded, it be a nerf, but a slight one (seeing as they'd end up having a 6+ cover instead of none). However, on units that do have these special rules, it makes all the difference in the world. I pay a good amount of points to have units with stealth/shrouded and in case of Tyranids, you actually need it make up for your horrible armor saves and lack of invul saves unless you're playing pentyrant stuff.


HOWEVER, Tau are just like "Nope, I'll just counter the very mechanic your army is built around". I haven't had a single fun Tyranid game against Tau (where markerlights were involved).

Same deal with Skitarii, unless you're taking ultra-competitive allied drop pod shenanigans, you're basicly screwed unless you're fighting nothing but firewarriors.

The old system of 1 token for -1 cover didn't work in 5th and since then cover has become more plentiful with the addition of defense lines, going to ground, jink, stealth and shrouded.
This is also while the pathfinder lost out on durability with it's armor save.

So I don't like that idea at all. Marker tokens just become too scarce to do anything. In fact all it would do is just make big units that can remove lots of models more of a standard.
There needs to be fixes with the Riptide's IA along with Markers getting a slight toning down.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The old system of 1 token for -1 cover didn't work in 5th and since then cover has become more plentiful with the addition of defense lines, going to ground, jink, stealth and shrouded.
This is also while the pathfinder lost out on durability with it's armor save.

They never should have had 4+ to begin with. They should have been 5+ with Stealth, same as their Eldar equivalent(Rangers).

So I don't like that idea at all. Marker tokens just become too scarce to do anything. In fact all it would do is just make big units that can remove lots of models more of a standard.

I really don't see this ever being the case. Never have I been in a situation where the other guy is hurting for Marker Tokens--but then again, the Tau player I commonly play against is bringing 3 full 10 man squads of Pathfinders with no upgrades beyond a couple of their drones.

There needs to be fixes with the Riptide's IA along with Markers getting a slight toning down.

Right, and the problem with Markerlights is that they are cumulative and allow no defense. Literally, there is NOTHING that you (as a player facing a Tau army) can do except not be in that 36" range to avoid being hit by Markerlights. They're the definition of nonsense.

They should be a flat bonus, incorporating multiple aspects of the "Token" system for each token used but not allowing the craziness that exists now.
I've gone over this before repeatedly and still feel that the best thing for Markerlights given the bonuses they give you now?
+1 BS, rerolls on To Hit/To Wound(both), and subtract a point of Cover from the target for all Tau units firing at a Marked target.
Give Pathfinders the "Target Lock" Support System, allow each Pathfinder to designate a different target. Make it so that they cannot Snap Fire Markerlights.

Voila. Tau become amazingly less annoying to play against for anyone who are running lists that rely upon Cover saves--and Tau players actually have to start bringing "Ignores Cover" weaponry to Ignore Cover.

It is kinda funny, the best army for dealing with Tidewall Tau is going to be more Tau. Honestly, I can't say I see what the big issue is with their codex remaining largely the same. Tau weren't broken before. They were upper mid-tier to lower upper-tier. Besides the Riptide (which can be killed fairly easily), not a whole lot of the codex was OP.

The worst part of the news coming out is that I want to travel back in time and stop Past Me from not starting Tau instead of one of my Space Marine armies.

I wouldn't call the Riptide easy to kill for most lists. In fact, it takes very specific weaponry that's not even available to many lists to really engage them efficiently. In fact, it's damn near impossible for a list like BA to kill them if the Tau player is savvy.

The only ignores cover weaponry is the flamers though-hence why marker lights were developed.

The way I see it is that Tau are deficient in some important areas right now, and overly competent in others. This is what keeps them out of the top tier.

Martel732 wrote:
I wouldn't call the Riptide easy to kill for most lists. In fact, it takes very specific weaponry that's not even available to many lists to really engage them efficiently. In fact, it's damn near impossible for a list like BA to kill them if the Tau player is savvy.

It isn't easy, but it can be done. A squad of Death Company with make mincemeat out of it, especially if a chaplain equipped with the Angel's Wing is with them. Dante, an Angel's Wing Sang Priest, and a squad of Sanguinary Guard will be able to make a dent in one too. Needing to snap shot Interceptor makes it hard to hit the BA guys. Bubble wrap changes things a little, though.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I wouldn't call the Riptide easy to kill for most lists. In fact, it takes very specific weaponry that's not even available to many lists to really engage them efficiently. In fact, it's damn near impossible for a list like BA to kill them if the Tau player is savvy.

It isn't easy, but it can be done. A squad of Death Company with make mincemeat out of it, especially if a chaplain equipped with the Angel's Wing is with them. Dante, an Angel's Wing Sang Priest, and a squad of Sanguinary Guard will be able to make a dent in one too. Needing to snap shot Interceptor makes it hard to hit the BA guys. Bubble wrap changes things a little, though.

None of those units will live to engage a Riptide in assault. Assaulting the thing is right out. It's grav or bust.

Martel732 wrote:
The way I see it is that Tau are deficient in some important areas right now, and overly competent in others. This is what keeps them out of the top tier.

Pretty much. They are still very vulnerable to Assault and Psychic Phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I wouldn't call the Riptide easy to kill for most lists. In fact, it takes very specific weaponry that's not even available to many lists to really engage them efficiently. In fact, it's damn near impossible for a list like BA to kill them if the Tau player is savvy.

It isn't easy, but it can be done. A squad of Death Company with make mincemeat out of it, especially if a chaplain equipped with the Angel's Wing is with them. Dante, an Angel's Wing Sang Priest, and a squad of Sanguinary Guard will be able to make a dent in one too. Needing to snap shot Interceptor makes it hard to hit the BA guys. Bubble wrap changes things a little, though.

None of those units will live to engage a Riptide in assault. Assaulting the thing is right out. It's grav or bust.

it's a good thing we can take Grav bikes then, huh?

I still think there needs to be a Grav Cannon Razorback turret.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The way I see it is that Tau are deficient in some important areas right now, and overly competent in others. This is what keeps them out of the top tier.

Pretty much. They are still very vulnerable to Assault and Psychic Phase.

I think Tau are pretty resilient to assault, actually. What they lack is good ranged anti-armor, which is frankly not that important. Also, deathstars that reach a certain level of resiliency just run over the Tau. But BA trying to assault Tau? I just die to overwatch and my assaults are wasted on sacrificial units so the real units can shoot me some more the next turn. That's after sucking up turns of Tau fire. The two surviving marines can't kill the entire Tau army, so BA lose this pretty much every time with no real say in the matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The way I see it is that Tau are deficient in some important areas right now, and overly competent in others. This is what keeps them out of the top tier.

Pretty much. They are still very vulnerable to Assault and Psychic Phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I wouldn't call the Riptide easy to kill for most lists. In fact, it takes very specific weaponry that's not even available to many lists to really engage them efficiently. In fact, it's damn near impossible for a list like BA to kill them if the Tau player is savvy.

It isn't easy, but it can be done. A squad of Death Company with make mincemeat out of it, especially if a chaplain equipped with the Angel's Wing is with them. Dante, an Angel's Wing Sang Priest, and a squad of Sanguinary Guard will be able to make a dent in one too. Needing to snap shot Interceptor makes it hard to hit the BA guys. Bubble wrap changes things a little, though.

None of those units will live to engage a Riptide in assault. Assaulting the thing is right out. It's grav or bust.

it's a good thing we can take Grav bikes then, huh?

I still think there needs to be a Grav Cannon Razorback turret.

Grav bikes that the Tau ace from 60" away. You mean those grav bikes? After they are dead, the Riptide is immortal, which means death for BA lists. Against bottom tier codices, the IA is just obscene.

The German translations people have found from the new codex might have nerfed Supporting Fire severely, so it might be different now.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The German translations people have found from the new codex might have nerfed Supporting Fire severely, so it might be different now.

Well that gives Tau back a weakness that they are supposed to have, at least. Although, in the scheme of things, it's somewhat unwarranted because Tau should be shootier than Eldar and that's just no longer true. To be honest, I don't know where the Tau codex should be. Part of me thinks they should be able to compete with Eldar, because SOMEONE should be able to do that, but by definition, that's another codex I can't have a good game against with BA.

 Orock wrote:
The only ignores cover weaponry is the flamers though-hence why marker lights were developed.

Tau actually have four sources of Ignore cover weaponry. However, one of them is currently limited to one per army, unless you take it on a LoW (airbursting frag projector), one is on a unit that is typically better used as a heavy infantry/heavy vehicle hunter (flamer), one is only usable via markerlight designation (seeker missile) & one is a prohibitively expensive upgrade on already expensive vehicles, or secondary weapons systems on models where they don't always synergize well with their primary armament (SMS).

As to the complaint about only needing 2 markerlights to remove all cover, if any of the conversations I've had about Pathfinders on these forums is actually the norm, it sounds like many Tau armies don't have a plethora of marker tokens per shooting phase anyway, so if they're reducing cover, they may not have many left over to make the shooting at that target terribly accurate.

I don't necessarily have an issue with tokens going back to the old system of -1 cover per token, but completely redesigning the markerlight mechanic that has been fairly static since the army was released 14 years ago - a core army mechanic as well - simply because people think it OP is a bit ridiculous.

I don't think Tau removing cover for 2 marker lights (That's four marker light shots) is crazy at all. Especially with the new DA codex running around. The DA run my BA over like chumps (BA are nominally a CC list, but we can't do anything to DA), I can only imagine what would happen to Tau without ignore cover tech.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The German translations people have found from the new codex might have nerfed Supporting Fire severely, so it might be different now.

[Citation Needed]

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The German translations people have found from the new codex might have nerfed Supporting Fire severely, so it might be different now.

[Citation Needed]

It was in the news thread. Again, it is a translation. I am not going to hunt it down since it is not a sure thing. What units are eligible to fire due to Supporting Fire may have changed.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The German translations people have found from the new codex might have nerfed Supporting Fire severely, so it might be different now.

[Citation Needed]

It was in the news thread. Again, it is a translation. I am not going to hunt it down since it is not a sure thing. What units are eligible to fire due to Supporting Fire may have changed.

This has been proven incorrect. In the german translation the wording is mixed up. It is the same as the previous codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The old system of 1 token for -1 cover didn't work in 5th and since then cover has become more plentiful with the addition of defense lines, going to ground, jink, stealth and shrouded.
This is also while the pathfinder lost out on durability with it's armor save.

They never should have had 4+ to begin with. They should have been 5+ with Stealth, same as their Eldar equivalent(Rangers).

So I don't like that idea at all. Marker tokens just become too scarce to do anything. In fact all it would do is just make big units that can remove lots of models more of a standard.

I really don't see this ever being the case. Never have I been in a situation where the other guy is hurting for Marker Tokens--but then again, the Tau player I commonly play against is bringing 3 full 10 man squads of Pathfinders with no upgrades beyond a couple of their drones.

There needs to be fixes with the Riptide's IA along with Markers getting a slight toning down.

Right, and the problem with Markerlights is that they are cumulative and allow no defense. Literally, there is NOTHING that you (as a player facing a Tau army) can do except not be in that 36" range to avoid being hit by Markerlights. They're the definition of nonsense.

They should be a flat bonus, incorporating multiple aspects of the "Token" system for each token used but not allowing the craziness that exists now.
I've gone over this before repeatedly and still feel that the best thing for Markerlights given the bonuses they give you now?
+1 BS, rerolls on To Hit/To Wound(both), and subtract a point of Cover from the target for all Tau units firing at a Marked target.
Give Pathfinders the "Target Lock" Support System, allow each Pathfinder to designate a different target. Make it so that they cannot Snap Fire Markerlights.

Voila. Tau become amazingly less annoying to play against for anyone who are running lists that rely upon Cover saves--and Tau players actually have to start bringing "Ignores Cover" weaponry to Ignore Cover.

So basically, just remove all abilities that make tau unique compared to other armies, right? lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DaPino wrote:

 Vryce wrote:

DaPino wrote:
Just saw some new pictures.

No changes to markerlights as far as I can tell. Guess I won't be playing Tau for some time (unless other things are nerfed).

What needed to change with Markerlights..?

The god damn ignores cover on 2 markerlights needed to change.
If they'd just change it to -1 cover for each markerlight spent, it would be so much better. On models without stealth/shrouded, it be a nerf, but a slight one (seeing as they'd end up having a 6+ cover instead of none). However, on units that do have these special rules, it makes all the difference in the world. I pay a good amount of points to have units with stealth/shrouded and in case of Tyranids, you actually need it make up for your horrible armor saves and lack of invul saves unless you're playing pentyrant stuff.


HOWEVER, Tau are just like "Nope, I'll just counter the very mechanic your army is built around". I haven't had a single fun Tyranid game against Tau (where markerlights were involved).

Same deal with Skitarii, unless you're taking ultra-competitive allied drop pod shenanigans, you're basicly screwed unless you're fighting nothing but firewarriors.

So you say you "pay a good amount of points to have units with stealth/shrouded". Well guess what? 3 full squads of pathfinders cost 330 points and die terribly easily. You think its fair for you to pay a small amount of points to make your entire army that has terrible saves have 4+ cover saves, but it is OP/unfair/ridiculous to spend WAY more points in an attempt to remove cover saves?

If that is the case, that is good. Supporting Fire is what Tau do.

 Vryce wrote:
Odd you started this thread OP. Considering a little over a week ago you started the thread talking about how awesome the Ghostkeel is.

Tell me, how does it feel to be the living embodiment of contradiction?

Why don't you just leave the page bro? Comment on the topic not about people posting. Keep the peace leave the war for the tabletop.

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:
Keep the peace leave the war for the tabletop.

I feel ya brother but I don't think that's how dakka rolls

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:

 Vryce wrote:
Odd you started this thread OP. Considering a little over a week ago you started the thread talking about how awesome the Ghostkeel is.

Tell me, how does it feel to be the living embodiment of contradiction?

Why don't you just leave the page bro? Comment on the topic not about people posting. Keep the peace leave the war for the tabletop.

I'm not your 'bro'. And I did comment on the topic. Making an observation from another of the OP's threads as it applied to the topic he created here.

I'll point out as well, that you quoted a post from 9 pages ago, to ignore the same 'advice' you gave me. Good job.