Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Yarium wrote:
Call me crazy, but I like this rule. Okay, there's some messed up situations (the Basilisk, the Land Raider, etc), but there's some good stuff too! Auto-glancing an Imperial Knight or auto-wounding an Eldar Wraithknight or Jetbike isn't too bad. Generally speaking, the cheesier you get, the better this defence becomes!

Meanwhile, a basic footslogger doesn't mind shooting at this, as suffering a couple of casualties from shooting at it is a minor issue.

Watch out Deathstars, the Tau have shields!

Or just hit them with ignores cover.

People are getting upset for over nothing. This is 40K. Nothing would work if stuff was real.

I would love to know what army people play who are complaining. I am sure we can find something that is not real or shouldn't work with your army as well.

For example there is no reason why a Space Marine Terminator is as fast as a Tyranid or Eldar. But they are. There is no way a Space Marine can shoot after the first turn since it doesn't carry ammo for their bolters. Have you seen the size of those shells? No way SM can keep firing for over 6 turns let alone more than one.

So don't worry what should or shouldn't happen and just have fun and play the game.

Davor wrote:
People are getting upset for over nothing. This is 40K. Nothing would work if stuff was real.

I would love to know what army people play who are complaining. I am sure we can find something that is not real or shouldn't work with your army as well.

For example there is no reason why a Space Marine Terminator is as fast as a Tyranid or Eldar. But they are. There is no way a Space Marine can shoot after the first turn since it doesn't carry ammo for their bolters. Have you seen the size of those shells? No way SM can keep firing for over 6 turns let alone more than one.

So don't worry what should or shouldn't happen and just have fun and play the game.

You think it's okay that a Land Raider can be glanced by a Stormbolter round or a Basilisk 10 feet away and completely out of line of sight to be hit by it's own shell? With no saves of any kind allowed besides invulns? You think that's fair when Infantry/MCs can get their saves/FNPs?

 Yarium wrote:
Call me crazy, but I like this rule. Okay, there's some messed up situations (the Basilisk, the Land Raider, etc), but there's some good stuff too! Auto-glancing an Imperial Knight or auto-wounding an Eldar Wraithknight or Jetbike isn't too bad. Generally speaking, the cheesier you get, the better this defence becomes!

Meanwhile, a basic footslogger doesn't mind shooting at this, as suffering a couple of casualties from shooting at it is a minor issue.

Watch out Deathstars, the Tau have shields!

More like, watch out deathstars, tau have two Str 10 AP2 large blasts coming from a stormsurge each turn that (depending on if it changes) can also have ignore cover from marker lights. Although there is still invisibility (single worst rule of 40k)

Time to be a dick and nit pick everything about 40k because I hate Tau now.

If you ever play me and ask "Can your Fire Warriors see over that Defense Line, I WILL SAY NO, and therefore they cannot gain LoS to you.

Since Im shooting you through a D-Line you're getting a 4+ cover save, weather its mine or not, because GW never specified if it was paid for or not you dont give cover to your opponent for shooting through it like Terrain. (Least that Im aware of)

While I love the idea of moving cover, the auto glance is flat out stupid.

To me this is a symptom of people already changing rules.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
To me this is a symptom of people already changing rules.

What is? Can you be more specific? The conversation is all over the place right now.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
To me this is a symptom of people already changing rules.

To me this is a player who can't see a stupid rule because it benefits them.

I don't really have a problem with the glancing hits thing. As I understand it, the bolter round is not bouncing off a wall, but being thrown back with tremendous force against its firer...

True, but it would have to be a super perfect rebound. The calculations for it to work would be immense.

Yay - yet another rule that has wounds being randomly allocated. I just love determining which member of my 30-strong combined infantry platoon is hit. Wait, what's that - I'll have to track which of my heavy weapon teams are at half health due to wounds being allocated randomly? Even better!

 Thairne wrote:
You`ve got to be kidding me.

Land Raider Crusader, Rapid Fire range.
24 shots, Tau go to Ground, receive a 2+ cover save (same as Aegis, right?)
He passes 20.
Averages 3.333333 automatic glancing hits on the Crusader.
So there is a GOOD SOLID chance that BOLTERS destroy my Land Raider in my OWN shooting phase?
Nuts.

A land raider crusader has a pair of hurricane bolters and a twin linked assault cannon. That's 6 twin-linked bolters (12 shots), plus 4 assault cannon shots. You'll also need to roll to hit and roll to wound. Let's assume that the land raider doesn't have psybolts, and the fire warriors go to ground.
(8/9) of the bolter shots would hit, (2/3) would wound. Now comes the fun hit.
The tau go to ground. There's a (1/6) chance of their cover save failing them. There's a (5/6) chance of the cover save protecting them, followed by a (1/6) chance of the shield inflicting a wound. Yep, that's right - the chance of a wound getting through their cover save is about the same as the chance of a wound getting reflected and damaging the vehicle.
The bolters will kill 1 tau soldier, and take off 1 hull point. The assault cannon will do a little bit less.


Tl:dr:
No, your Crusader would take around 3 turns to shred itself. It would also kill 4 or 5 fire warriors while keeping the rest of the squad suppressed. "Yay". A unit of tau that goes to ground will take roughly as many wounds as it reflects (against vehicles), unless the attacker uses Ignore Cover.

People have been lead to believe if they complain enough a TO will come along and nerf new units.

I see many of the game boards in the future will be this...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_m4gOsU9_sxo/TNBrgR99SHI/AAAAAAAAALc/lRS0BP8n2mA/s1600/imperial+city.JPG

Now deploy your 300pt wall!

You are responsible for the language in your posts; the filter isn't going to catch everything. --Janthkin

I think that maybe some communication between players would be better for this fortification... Maybe just agree that they are like the repulsor rules for the Kastelen Robots in cult mechanicus.

On a seperate roll of a six, the model shooting at them gets hit with the same strength and ap of the weapon they shot at the original target, Barring any weapon with the blast or template rules. They only get automatically hit, so you still have to roll to wound.

maybe we should be thankful this terrain set was a limited run...

I think you pay for what you get with this thing. It has a lot of crazy rules and the whole "BS4+ Monster Hunter/Tank Hunter Twin-Linked Railgun" is amusing, especially when made to Ignore Cover (current rules). It's also very expensive for the full formation. I'm interested to see how the pro-scene reacts to this.

thoughts on the tidewall:

interestingly enough it also affects the Tau player, if you move onto it, or within 1" of the shieldlines, the tau shots bounce back on them as well as the rules only specify models within 1", and not friendly models, or tau models. This also prevents the tidewall from moving. Considering certain armies can move and turboboost quite far you can in effect nullify the tidewall on turn 1. Charge tau turn 2 with your units if they are still there (some things with re-rollable jinks will be...) and if they overwatch any of your re-rollable cover saves will let you roll a dice to see if you auto wound the tau that fired at you.

Please Tau players take this thing in your army lol.

also not sure why people are scared about shooting D at this, you get hit back with an auto wound/glance at the AP of the weapon. So if you fired a Strength D weapon at something on the tidewall and it made its cover save, then rolled a 6 you would just take 1 wound/glance at AP1- not at STR D. This also means if you fired a S10 shot, it would not be a S10 hit as it does not say at the Strength of the shot fired, so it would not have ID for example.

blaktoof wrote:
thoughts on the tidewall:

interestingly enough it also affects the Tau player, if you move onto it, or within 1" of the shieldlines, the tau shots bounce back on them as well as the rules only specify models within 1", and not friendly models, or tau models. This also prevents the tidewall from moving. Considering certain armies can move and turboboost quite far you can in effect nullify the tidewall on turn 1. Charge tau turn 2 with your units if they are still there (some things with re-rollable jinks will be...) and if they overwatch any of your re-rollable cover saves will let you roll a dice to see if you auto wound the tau that fired at you.

Please Tau players take this thing in your army lol.

By the looks of it to get within 1" of the shield-wall would mean being in base contact with the terrain...which would be illegal if there is a unit garrisoning it per the rules for defence lines if I'm remembering their rules correctly. Not so easy to nullify. You also have to be either on the terrain or surrounding it entirely so it can't move.

Additionally, I like the assertion that the re-rollable Jinks are such a big deterrent to an army that has by far the most Ignores Cover of any codex in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
People are scared of the lack of a Strength value for precisely the opposite reasons to the ones you talk about. A Leman Russ Punisher shooting at a unit that Goes to Ground while manning a Tidewall will kill itself even though normally its guns wouldn't be able to hurt anything that is AV12 or above.

I've decided to approach it as though they now have Overwatch in the enemy shooting phase now.

 Thairne wrote:
You`ve got to be kidding me.

Land Raider Crusader, Rapid Fire range.
24 shots, Tau go to Ground, receive a 2+ cover save (same as Aegis, right?)
He passes 20.
Averages 3.333333 automatic glancing hits on the Crusader.
So there is a GOOD SOLID chance that BOLTERS destroy my Land Raider in my OWN shooting phase?
Nuts.

I'm pretty sure the cover increase is unique to the aegis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krazynadechukr wrote:
I see many of the game boards in the future will be this...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_m4gOsU9_sxo/TNBrgR99SHI/AAAAAAAAALc/lRS0BP8n2mA/s1600/imperial+city.JPG

Now deploy your 300pt wall!

Eh, that's what my boards look like anyway. I'm a big terrain lover.

Then next Tau edition GW makes it so the pieces can all split up and move independently to make it fair to take them on maps like that.

You push, they push. Especially if it makes them a dollar.

Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
You`ve got to be kidding me.

Land Raider Crusader, Rapid Fire range.
24 shots, Tau go to Ground, receive a 2+ cover save (same as Aegis, right?)
He passes 20.
Averages 3.333333 automatic glancing hits on the Crusader.
So there is a GOOD SOLID chance that BOLTERS destroy my Land Raider in my OWN shooting phase?
Nuts.

I'm pretty sure the cover increase is unique to the aegis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krazynadechukr wrote:
I see many of the game boards in the future will be this...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_m4gOsU9_sxo/TNBrgR99SHI/AAAAAAAAALc/lRS0BP8n2mA/s1600/imperial+city.JPG

Now deploy your 300pt wall!

Eh, that's what my boards look like anyway. I'm a big terrain lover.

The bonus to GtG applies to all defense lines, not just the Aegis.

Terrain will really hinder this thing's deployment and movement.

Ah, my mistake.

Lychguard used to have basically the same rule and it wasn't the end of the world. It is something new that is nice for Tau and it's not cheap either.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Lychguard used to have basically the same rule and it wasn't the end of the world. It is something new that is nice for Tau and it's not cheap either.

So Lychguard were causing Glancing Hits with no rolls to Hit or for Armor Pen?

Somehow I feel like that was not the case.

a few things that really ruin this models day:

thunderfire cannon and a fortress of redemption.. in a word artillery marine list.

with tfc's or an achillies you cause generate difficult terrain checks and that means the wall cannot move in a given direction. it cant cross ANY terrain so simply playing cities of death or suiciding a metal bawks with a knight titan throwing a dead rhino means you can kill its ability to travel. the fortress of redemption has hellstorm missles, more than enough to hurt the inhabitants of the tidewall you dont even need to waste magic dice on enchatments your auto hits back are taken against the fortress walls which are a lot thicker than the tidewalls. it has the most HP in the game and you wont be shoving it off, in addition its a glancing hit if your void shields are still up the fortress takes no damage anyway. and for a fraction of the price, the fortress after missles is like 250ish while the tidewall is 268 or so base. simply put its a giant waste of points in a war against a fortress of redemption.

if orks also ever steal it your going to have a heck of apredictament on your hands, orks rarely: if ever, ever get bs 4+ shooting they could use that to lethal effect and now your going to need to spend time assaulting into a structure something the tau are not well known for and will likely fail because ya know orks.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Davor wrote:
People are getting upset for over nothing. This is 40K. Nothing would work if stuff was real.

I would love to know what army people play who are complaining. I am sure we can find something that is not real or shouldn't work with your army as well.

For example there is no reason why a Space Marine Terminator is as fast as a Tyranid or Eldar. But they are. There is no way a Space Marine can shoot after the first turn since it doesn't carry ammo for their bolters. Have you seen the size of those shells? No way SM can keep firing for over 6 turns let alone more than one.

So don't worry what should or shouldn't happen and just have fun and play the game.

You think it's okay that a Land Raider can be glanced by a Stormbolter round or a Basilisk 10 feet away and completely out of line of sight to be hit by it's own shell? With no saves of any kind allowed besides invulns? You think that's fair when Infantry/MCs can get their saves/FNPs?

It's a game. Don't worry about it. Too much in 40K is not fair, so this is no big deal. Not aimed at you, but I find it funny when the shoe is on the other foot, people get upset when they perceive they have an unfair advantage.

Maybe playing Nids and Dark Angels (at the poor end of the power scale) and then quitting at 5th edition, (since basically everyone in my area quit) I don't find this a big deal no more and just roll with it if I ever get back to gaming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am curious, can a bunch of Rippers prevent the wall from moving? Imagine that, Rippers prevent the Tidewall from moving because it can't move within 1" if Rippers.

I find it pretty funny that people are using the crusader as the example of a LR killing itself. In order to get all those hurricane bolters into rapid fire range the gun must be within 12" of an enemy model. Since the guns are usually in the first side door position, that means the front of the land raider is 2 1/2" closer to the wall. That means the front of the tank is only 9" away from the enemy model.

Now, since most crusaders are transporting something that really wants to get into combat, that mean you go out the front door 6" and now only have to cover a 3" charge. Sounds doable and now within a few turns there will no longer be any Tau behind the tide wall to shoot at.

I'll agree that the rule as it is worded is pretty silly. Especially when taken to the extreme case of say DE venoms with twin splinter cannons. These weapons cannot hurt vehicles in any way, however, when coming back from the wall suddenly they are stripping hull points.

 Jayden63 wrote:
I find it pretty funny that people are using the crusader as the example of a LR killing itself. In order to get all those hurricane bolters into rapid fire range the gun must be within 12" of an enemy model. Since the guns are usually in the first side door position, that means the front of the land raider is 2 1/2" closer to the wall. That means the front of the tank is only 9" away from the enemy model.

Now, since most crusaders are transporting something that really wants to get into combat, that mean you go out the front door 6" and now only have to cover a 3" charge. Sounds doable and now within a few turns there will no longer be any Tau behind the tide wall to shoot at.

I'll agree that the rule as it is worded is pretty silly. Especially when taken to the extreme case of say DE venoms with twin splinter cannons. These weapons cannot hurt vehicles in any way, however, when coming back from the wall suddenly they are stripping hull points.

Chance of a DE Venom losing a hull point (2+ GtG): 55%