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 Arkaine wrote:
Ah but this wasn't true of the newer Game of Thrones LCG which was only five years old at its death. The new Game of Thrones: Second Edition LCG came as a direct result of the card pool growing too large, the ban list getting out of hand, and new players being discouraged from joining the game due to the huge cardpool they would need to purchase. Availability wasn't the issue because Fantasy Flight was reprinting the old packs regularly. The prohibitive cost to join and power creep stemming from a bloat of options was the reason behind switching to a retiring set system like other collectible card games.

Methinks restricting FW on that count is kind of like pissing into an ocean of piss, FW is a very minor issue there.Such creep already killed Fantasy which had almost zero FW products, 40k's already got that problem with core Codex stuff, FW doesn't really make it any worse (and again, one will note, in tournaments where FW is allowed, it doesn't seem to be any sort of game-changers)

Even Games Workshop retires old codexes by replacing them with new versions that supplant the old rules, keeping the options limited and manageable even if they're grown a bit over the years as the game develops.

I'm not seeing how this applies to the above point, it's not like they remove tons of stuff with each codex typically, they just add more in most cases, there's generally (outside of a handful of exceptions like CSM's) just more stuff added.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Limiting the game to just the official GW codex releases ensures there is a fixed cap for all armies that doesn't require much from the players to keep track of as new rules and models are rarely added to the fold.

This assumes that FW adds a whole new power level, which there is relatively little evidence for, particularly as events that allow FW don't commonly see armies using FW (either entire lists or single units) placing spectacularly high on any sort of routine basis.

Not at all, the power level of Forgeworld is not the issue. It just adds another layer to the game like a new set or expansion does to other games, only it's a particularly large set that offers tactics and strengths the default codex wouldn't normally be capable of such as the Gargantuan Tyranid creatures or the Chaos Dreadclaws. As again with card games, even if you create two completely balanced sets, once you allow them to be used in tandem unexpected synergies will begin to appear that are more efficient than the self-contained set combos alone.

Using the examples you've listed, it's hard to buy them as major problems worthy of banning. Dreadclaws aren't something people can't deal with if they can already deal with drop pods or flyers (and you won't find many CSM players exactly rushing to go out and include Dreadclaws). Likewise, the Tyranid GC's aren't even FW units, FW just casts the resin, but their rules and the rules that allow their inclusion into non-Apocalypse games are written by GW's core studio and not Forgeworld.

As for balanced sets and unexpected synergies, you'd reap far greater rewards banning allies, multiple detachments, formations, etc than banning FW. That's where you have problems with unexpected synergies.

Ergo, allowing Forgeworld makes buying Forgeworld mandatory.

There's absolutely zero evidence for this except in the minds of people who are going out of their way to look for reasons to ban FW.

Again, look at events and tournaments that allow FW and you'll see that FW inclusion is far from mandatory, most armies still don't include any FW stuff, and FW stuff certainly isn't sweeping top places.

Mainly because those can be shared. They're ebooks, once one of the community buys it, everyone has access to it.

If we're talking about people sharing e-books (without others purchasing them) well, people can share every Imperial Armour book too if they want, there's certainly copies out there, and there's nothing against you scanning your own copy for your own personal use

 Tinkrr wrote:
Branding? As a recently returning player I come from an era of FW basically being the "Titan" shop, so it's weird coming back to a more general FW world.

FW doesn't even write the rules for most of the Titans anymore, they just cast the resin.

More so, GW and FW are in a way two different companies which is very harsh for newer players.

They are not two different companies at all. FW is a sub-department of GW, like Accounting or Finance, located at GW's HQ and staffed by GW employees. They make stuff that's just not practical for the primary production facilities to do in plastic, but that they can do in smaller runs with different materials.

Heck I'm sure I've seen a thread here where someone stated their GW store didn't allow FW models, which doesn't help either.

Indeed, it doesn't help, but that's a problem with GW's internal pressures and the sales goals of individual stores.

 Arkaine wrote:
Indeed, the more options allowed, the more mandatory purchases exist, but you've got to start somewhere.

And that somewhere is the "captains and tactical squads" game. What you're proposing is that we allow the options that you personally want to use, but ban the options that you have no interest in. And that's blatantly unfair.

Who said anything about pirating? A player buys a dataslate and now everyone at the game store has access to it. It's called borrowing. Asking someone for rules out of an ebook is way different from borrowing their Dimachaeron.

Why are you comparing rules to models? If you're talking about borrowing rules then a person can borrow a copy of a FW book. If you're talking about borrowing models then a FW model is no different than a GW model, if a Dimachaeron should be illegal because you can't borrow it then why should you be allowed to use tactical squads in your army when I can't borrow those models?


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 Tinkrr wrote:
More so, GW and FW are in a way two different companies which is very harsh for newer players.

Nope. FW is no more a "different company" than Citadel is. Forge World is a brand name used by GW for some of their product lines, nothing more.

Heck I'm sure I've seen a thread here where someone stated their GW store didn't allow FW models, which doesn't help either.

You know why? Because GW store employees have sales quotas, and for some idiotic reason GW doesn't count online purchases towards that quota even if the player is a regular customer at the store and buying stuff specifically to use there. If you spend $100 at that particular cash register then the employee gets credit, if you go home and spend that $100 on GW's website and have it delivered to the local GW store then the employee gets nothing. Those FW bans have nothing to do with what is good for the game, it's entirely about the employee's personal benefits.

FW doesn't even write the rules for most of the Titans anymore, they just cast the resin.

I come from third edition, this is not what I know, I know FW as Titan Shop...

They are not two different companies at all. FW is a sub-department of GW, like Accounting or Finance, located at GW's HQ and staffed by GW employees. They make stuff that's just not practical for the primary production facilities to do in plastic, but that they can do in smaller runs with different materials.

Indeed, it doesn't help, but that's a problem with GW's internal pressures and the sales goals of individual stores.

No, that's literally when one company becomes two.

Honestly, that's basically the plot to the Horus Heresy, which is ironic since FW is all about the Horus Heresy these days >.>

But seriously, this discussion should end at GW stores not allowing FW models, as that's literally the opposite of it being one whole company. There's no reasonable situation in which one company intends to spite itself without being two different companies.

Nope. FW is no more a "different company" than Citadel is. Forge World is a brand name used by GW for some of their product lines, nothing more.

You know why? Because GW store employees have sales quotas, and for some idiotic reason GW doesn't count online purchases towards that quota even if the player is a regular customer at the store and buying stuff specifically to use there. If you spend $100 at that particular cash register then the employee gets credit, if you go home and spend that $100 on GW's website and have it delivered to the local GW store then the employee gets nothing. Those FW bans have nothing to do with what is good for the game, it's entirely about the employee's personal benefits.

I understand this, but seriously, this baffles me. I've worked as a buyer, I've worked trade shows (Pax and more) and this is literally so incredibly stupid that it's like cutting your nose off to spite your own face.

I'm sorry, maybe I'm missing something, but I can never take a company as a whole seriously when it splits itself down the middle as heavily as GW and FW has. That's just not reasonable, and I've worked for some incredibly scummy companies before that still knew better.

 Tinkrr wrote:
I come from third edition, this is not what I know, I know FW as Titan Shop...

Then, honestly, maybe you should do some research about the current state of the game before you try to argue about what should or shouldn't be legal.

But seriously, this discussion should end at GW stores not allowing FW models, as that's literally the opposite of it being one whole company.

I've already told you the reason, and it has nothing to do with being a separate company. GW stores sometimes ban FW models for the same reason that they beg you to come into the store and use the store's computer to place your online orders instead of doing it at home. Are you suggesting that tactical squads should be banned because, from the point of view of a GW store employee, the tactical squad I bought on the GW website (from my home computer) is a rival product?

There's no reasonable situation in which one company intends to spite itself without being two different companies.

You're right, there's no reasonable situation. What you should be realizing here is that GW is not a reasonable company. This is just one example among many of the sheer idiocy of GW's management.

GW's business logic has been, well, poor, for years. That's why they're on an 11 year revenue decline. Same company that *borrowed* money to pay dividends.

FW's operations are all in house, the FW books all have a GW copyright and state that they're published by GW, and are written by people on GW payroll, FW is nothing more than a sales channel, but they seem to continually treat it like some weird 3rd party.

Then, honestly, maybe you should do some research about the current state of the game before you try to argue about what should or shouldn't be legal.

Wait, what? I don't think I made any claim of what should or shouldn't be legal, I simply stated what the perception of FW some people might have. I actually think things like the Remoras and Tetras are very reasonable for my army.

I've already told you the reason, and it has nothing to do with being a separate company. GW stores sometimes ban FW models for the same reason that they beg you to come into the store and use the store's computer to place your online orders instead of doing it at home. Are you suggesting that tactical squads should be banned because, from the point of view of a GW store employee, the tactical squad I bought on the GW website (from my home computer) is a rival product?

Um, no. I'm saying that it's absurd that GW stores can ban FW models at all.

Here, let me make my stance on this very clear: "If they want to be one company, then GW stores should allow FW with no exceptions."

I'd rather have the policy that GW stores allow FW completely, as opposed to them being able to ban it, since that's not at all reasonable if they are actually one company. It's as if they could just opt to ban random codices that are popular in order to sell less popular ones, assuming they are one company.

You're right, there's no reasonable situation. What you should be realizing here is that GW is not a reasonable company. This is just one example among many of the sheer idiocy of GW's management.

That's literally my point, and why some people have stigma against FW.

I personally don't and would like a world where GW stores are prohibited from banning FW, along with both companies showing a unified front. As it stands now, they simply aren't one company in behavior, and that's just sad. does that make sense to you?

 Vaktathi wrote:
Methinks restricting FW on that count is kind of like pissing into an ocean of piss, FW is a very minor issue there.Such creep already killed Fantasy which had almost zero FW products, 40k's already got that problem with core Codex stuff, FW doesn't really make it any worse (and again, one will note, in tournaments where FW is allowed, it doesn't seem to be any sort of game-changers)

A humorous analogy but as mentioned it's really not about the power level of FW products, just the options they provide. When Games Workshop releases new Tau models for their upcoming Codex, surely you'd agree it's changing the game and expanding the possibilities? Limiting FW limits that growth and in turn reduces the barrier to entry.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Even Games Workshop retires old codexes by replacing them with new versions that supplant the old rules, keeping the options limited and manageable even if they're grown a bit over the years as the game develops.

I'm not seeing how this applies to the above point, it's not like they remove tons of stuff with each codex typically, they just add more in most cases, there's generally (outside of a handful of exceptions like CSM's) just more stuff added.

It applies in the context that as old unit rules are retired and replaced with new versions, most of the game remains same in terms of cost because you're reusing your existing models. On the other hand, Forgeworld is continually adding new models to the store that are not replacements for older versions, expanding the total number of models frequently. Games Workshop has been doing that too just at a slower and more manageable rate for aspiring collectors.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Using the examples you've listed, it's hard to buy them as major problems worthy of banning. Dreadclaws aren't something people can't deal with if they can already deal with drop pods or flyers (and you won't find many CSM players exactly rushing to go out and include Dreadclaws). Likewise, the Tyranid GC's aren't even FW units, FW just casts the resin, but their rules and the rules that allow their inclusion into non-Apocalypse games are written by GW's core studio and not Forgeworld. As for balanced sets and unexpected synergies, you'd reap far greater rewards banning allies, multiple detachments, formations, etc than banning FW. That's where you have problems with unexpected synergies.

Those are all often banned already depending on the event, FW is not the only restriction. It's again not about the power of Forgeworld options but of the versatility the selection provides. The cited examples are purely to illustrate things the ordinary codices cannot normally do, such as taking a Drop Pod in a Chaos Space Marine army. Forgeworld expands the possibilities beyond the limits of the regular codex (at substantial monetary cost) and that is something the playerbase has determined to be unwanted due to the cost involved. There is a direct and real advantage taken when you are capable of performing actions ordinarily barred to you simply because you spent money on figures and rules exclusive to Forgeworld.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Ergo, allowing Forgeworld makes buying Forgeworld mandatory.

There's absolutely zero evidence for this except in the minds of people who are going out of their way to look for reasons to ban FW.
Again, look at events and tournaments that allow FW and you'll see that FW inclusion is far from mandatory, most armies still don't include any FW stuff, and FW stuff certainly isn't sweeping top places.

And yet the decision to ban Forgeworld was done collectively after several tournaments where it was brought to the field. Simply because most of the players didn't want to spend more on models that provided that same level of versatility to their own factions. Again, it's not about being overpowered, it's about making tactics possible that the regular codex cannot accomplish. The local meta is of the friendly variety with many new players involved and only a handful of veterans. We already stomp the newbies with standard codex equipment, giving us extra options is unnecessary and only puts strain on their spending by opening up those avenues.

I must stress the fact that the decision to prohibit Forgeworld was agreed upon as a community in order to limit the costs involved with playing the game. No one wants to feel like they can't afford the nice things everyone else is bringing from the land of Rainbows and Unicorns. So those things simply aren't brought.

 Tinkrr wrote:
Wait, what? I don't think I made any claim of what should or shouldn't be legal, I simply stated what the perception of FW some people might have. I actually think things like the Remoras and Tetras are very reasonable for my army.

Never mind, got my posts mixed up.

Um, no. I'm saying that it's absurd that GW stores can ban FW models at all.

Yes, it is absurd. Well-run companies don't ban their own products.

Here, let me make my stance on this very clear: "If they want to be one company, then GW stores should allow FW with no exceptions."

Most GW stores do. There is no blanket ban on FW in GW's own stores, it's a policy by individual store employees.

It's as if they could just opt to ban random codices that are popular in order to sell less popular ones, assuming they are one company.

That's exactly what they could do. There's nothing stopping GW from banning older codices, just like there's nothing stopping GW stores from banning your entire army from the store if you haven't bought enough stuff recently (which some stores have done). And TBH, I suspect the only reason they don't ban certain codices is that those banned books/units are still on the shelf waiting to be bought, and it's kind of hard to sell something if you have a policy that people aren't allowed to use it in your store.

does that make sense to you?

It makes sense that it's kind of sad when it happens, but I think you're drawing strong conclusions from the actions of a few random GW stores.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
Indeed, the more options allowed, the more mandatory purchases exist, but you've got to start somewhere.

And that somewhere is the "captains and tactical squads" game. What you're proposing is that we allow the options that you personally want to use, but ban the options that you have no interest in. And that's blatantly unfair.

Not at all, the decision was agreed upon by everyone who plays in the local meta. It was determined more fair for the new players. I never stated you had to use these rules yourself, only described for the purpose of the topic the reason our meta uses them.

 Peregrine wrote:
Why are you comparing rules to models? If you're talking about borrowing rules then a person can borrow a copy of a FW book. If you're talking about borrowing models then a FW model is no different than a GW model, if a Dimachaeron should be illegal because you can't borrow it then why should you be allowed to use tactical squads in your army when I can't borrow those models?

You seem to be confused here... there is no comparison. All Forgeworld is banned, rules and models, because of the price of the models. The rules are cheap, the models are not. One can be borrowed and the other... well how often would you trust someone handling your expensive toys?

 Arkaine wrote:
A humorous analogy but as mentioned it's really not about the power level of FW products, just the options they provide. When Games Workshop releases new Tau models for their upcoming Codex, surely you'd agree it's changing the game and expanding the possibilities? Limiting FW limits that growth and in turn reduces the barrier to entry.

And banning Tau would also reduce the barrier to entry. So why should Tau be legal while FW units aren't?

It applies in the context that as old unit rules are retired and replaced with new versions, most of the game remains same in terms of cost because you're reusing your existing models.

Err, lol? Have you seen GW's new releases lately? Even when they aren't releasing new (and often powerful) kits they're publishing blatantly overpowered formations that encourage you to buy tons of new models to complete them.

There is a direct and real advantage taken when you are capable of performing actions ordinarily barred to you simply because you spent money on figures and rules exclusive to Forgeworld.

And there is a direct and real advantage taken when you are capable of performing actions ordinarily barred to you simply because you spent money on figures and rules exclusive to the Tau army. So why should FW be banned while Tau are legal? Why should I have to choose between limiting my options or spending hundreds of dollars on the new Tau models?

I must stress the fact that the decision to prohibit Forgeworld was agreed upon as a community in order to limit the costs involved with playing the game. No one wants to feel like they can't afford the nice things everyone else is bringing from the land of Rainbows and Unicorns. So those things simply aren't brought.

I see. So it's ok to ban FW models and demand that people who did buy FW armies buy a bunch of new stuff? Why is it ok to insist that I spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars on new models so that you don't have to be threatened by the existence of new options? Why is your hobby budget more important than mine?


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 Arkaine wrote:
Not at all, the decision was agreed upon by everyone who plays in the local meta. It was determined more fair for the new players. I never stated you had to use these rules yourself, only described for the purpose of the topic the reason our meta uses them.

I see, so you never get new players? And if nobody wants to use FW rules then why do they need to be banned? A ban implies that at least some people would use them if they could, you don't need to ban stuff that nobody has any interest in using.

Never mind, got my posts mixed up.

Fair enough.

Yes, it is absurd. Well-run companies don't ban their own products.

This is simply not ok for a company the size of GW.

Most GW stores do. There is no blanket ban on FW in GW's own stores, it's a policy by individual store employees.

One store, is one too many. It's one thing if they have certain tournament rules for various tournament rules, it's another if they ever say they aren't allowed.

If a single store says FW isn't allowed as a whole, then it's not one company.

That's exactly what they could do. There's nothing stopping GW from banning older codices, just like there's nothing stopping GW stores from banning your entire army from the store if you haven't bought enough stuff recently (which some stores have done). And TBH, I suspect the only reason they don't ban certain codices is that those banned books/units are still on the shelf waiting to be bought, and it's kind of hard to sell something if you have a policy that people aren't allowed to use it in your store.

I'm fine with multi-format tournaments where you can only use certain things, I am not fine with the idea of not allowing people to play certain things at all.

The day I hear GW make a claim on this, is the day I literally walk away from 40k and don't look back. There is never, and should never, be a reason to harm your own product in such a manner. This isn't even an idealistic thing in terms of ethics, it's simply economics at that point, because their game is dead at that point and I should bother.

It makes sense that it's kind of sad when it happens, but I think you're drawing strong conclusions from the actions of a few random GW stores.

What other company has such a divide between two of its own brands?

This is pretty much the only company that I've heard so much justification for, despite how many negative things it has outwardly stated. This is coming from someone who plays WoW, a game that has recently seen such a massive drop that even those who make their living off of it are saying that the next expansion might just be the end.

 Tinkrr wrote:
If a single store says FW isn't allowed as a whole, then it's not one company.

Except that has nothing to do with whether or not it's one company. Forge World models are sold by GW, shipped from GW, published in GW magazines, etc. Their copyrights are even owned by GW. It is indisputably a brand name and logo used by GW for some of their product lines, not a separate company. And no amount of stupid policies from random GW employees (who have absolutely no power to determine anything outside of their own store) will change this fact.

I'm fine with multi-format tournaments where you can only use certain things, I am not fine with the idea of not allowing people to play certain things at all.

Then complain if a GW store in your area does it. I'm not defending the practice, I'm just telling you that it's about sales quotas and individual store employees caring more about filling their quota than what benefits the community, not some kind of division between FW and GW. Beyond that I really don't see what your point here is.

 Arkaine wrote:
Ergo, allowing Forgeworld makes buying Forgeworld mandatory.

Que? I've been rolling a Death Korps army for a while now, using FW rules and noone, litteraly noone went ''hey I could really use that FW unit to beat that FW list'' Heck I don't even remember facing FW stuff at all.

Except that has nothing to do with whether or not it's one company. Forge World models are sold by GW, shipped from GW, published in GW magazines, etc. Their copyrights are even owned by GW. It is indisputably a brand name and logo used by GW for some of their product lines, not a separate company. And no amount of stupid policies from random GW employees (who have absolutely no power to determine anything outside of their own store) will change this fact.

And yet an employee of GW can ban FW from a store. Justify that please.

Let's start with that, why is it allowed at all, if it's one company. I don't care about sales records of a GW employee or whatever, I just want a justification for why a company can ban a section of its own product in its own facilities, despite still being part of that company.

 Tinkrr wrote:
Let's start with that, why is it allowed at all, if it's one company. I don't care about sales records of a GW employee or whatever, I just want a justification for why a company can ban a section of its own product in its own facilities, despite still being part of that company.

Because GW is dysfunctional, and has been for over a decade.

Legally they are one company, any other definition is just one you're making up.

 Arkaine wrote:

A humorous analogy but as mentioned it's really not about the power level of FW products, just the options they provide. When Games Workshop releases new Tau models for their upcoming Codex, surely you'd agree it's changing the game and expanding the possibilities? Limiting FW limits that growth and in turn reduces the barrier to entry.

It limited growth but the idea that FW is a barrier to entry only holds true if you believe FW is mandatory, and it would only be mandatory if its conferring some sort of power advantage, for which there is no evidence.

It applies in the context that as old unit rules are retired and replaced with new versions, most of the game remains same in terms of cost because you're reusing your existing models. On the other hand, Forgeworld is continually adding new models to the store that are not replacements for older versions, expanding the total number of models frequently. Games Workshop has been doing that too just at a slower and more manageable rate for aspiring collectors.

Have you looked at the last three years of GW releases? I don't think that argument holds any water, especially if you're not counting HH stuff. Relatively little FW stuff introduces truly new capabilities to armies that didn't have them before, and in some cases where it does, it's often very much needed.

Those are all often banned already depending on the event, FW is not the only restriction.

Allies and multiple detachments and formations are rarely banned, most big tournaments put a couple of relatively light restrictions on there (like a maximum of 3 detachments), but aside from that allow people to go balls-hog on allies and formations.

It's again not about the power of Forgeworld options but of the versatility the selection provides. The cited examples are purely to illustrate things the ordinary codices cannot normally do, such as taking a Drop Pod in a Chaos Space Marine army.

Sure, a Drop Pod in a CSM army is theoretically not organic to a strictly Codex CSM army. However given that a Dreadclaw is *triple* the cost of a basic drop pod, it's not an option you'll see utilized very option, especially considering CSM's don't have many units that could take tremendous advantage of the capabilities in the way say, combat=squading Sternguard can. If people can deal with SM armies with drop pods, Dreadclaws are absolutely not going to throw a wrench into anyone's works.

Forgeworld expands the possibilities beyond the limits of the regular codex (at substantial monetary cost) and that is something the playerbase has determined to be unwanted due to the cost involved. There is a direct and real advantage taken when you are capable of performing actions ordinarily barred to you simply because you spent money on figures and rules exclusive to Forgeworld.

And yet nobody has a problem with allies and multiple detachments doing this exact thing, but on an order of magnitude worse?

Additionally, FW's cost is increasingly less of an issue. Cost might have been a reasonable argument when codex books were $20, characters were $8-15, and10man squad of infantry was $25-30. When Codex books are now nearly $60, characters are $25-35, and ten man squads of many infantry are commonly $50-70 or more, the cost difference is negligible when equivalent FW models are often the same price and Imperial Armour books often are the same price or only a little bit more.

Hell, my Death Korps Grenadiers are no more expensive than plastic Tempestus Scions or Dire Avengers.

GW's plastic Magos Dominus is in fact more expensive than FW's. GW's clampack characters are pretty much all on par with FW's pricing at this point.

And yet the decision to ban Forgeworld was done collectively after several tournaments where it was brought to the field. Simply because most of the players didn't want to spend more on models that provided that same level of versatility to their own factions. Again, it's not about being overpowered, it's about making tactics possible that the regular codex cannot accomplish.

And is there a similar ban on allies, formations, and multiple detachments? If not, then the ban on FW is absurd. Likewise, the overwhelmingly vast majority of FW stuff doesn't bring in any major new capabilities. A Leman Russ Annihilator isn't bringing some radical new capability to an IG army, any more than a Decimator Daemon Engine is to a CSM army. In the cases where you do get capabilities, in many instances they're often critically needed to enable some factions to have a realistic chance against many newer armies, such as with Sicarans and CSM's against FMC spam or Eldar.

I must stress the fact that the decision to prohibit Forgeworld was agreed upon as a community in order to limit the costs involved with playing the game. No one wants to feel like they can't afford the nice things everyone else is bringing from the land of Rainbows and Unicorns. So those things simply aren't brought.

Again, when GW's prices are increasingly matching, and in some cases, exceeding FW's prices, it's hard to see where this argument has continued merit.

 Tinkrr wrote:

Except that has nothing to do with whether or not it's one company. Forge World models are sold by GW, shipped from GW, published in GW magazines, etc. Their copyrights are even owned by GW. It is indisputably a brand name and logo used by GW for some of their product lines, not a separate company. And no amount of stupid policies from random GW employees (who have absolutely no power to determine anything outside of their own store) will change this fact.

And yet an employee of GW can ban FW from a store. Justify that please.

Let's start with that, why is it allowed at all, if it's one company. I don't care about sales records of a GW employee or whatever, I just want a justification for why a company can ban a section of its own product in its own facilities, despite still being part of that company.

Because it's all still ultimately their company and they're allowed to do stupid things if they want to.

Just like they can (and will) prevent you from playing Necromunda or 2nd edition 40k in many stores.

 Tinkrr wrote:
And yet an employee of GW can ban FW from a store. Justify that please.

What is there to justify? A GW employee can ban you and your GW products from the store because because they don't like the color you painted them. A random GW employee banning stuff has nothing to do with high-level policy decisions about what is and isn't part of GW the company.

The point you keep missing is that there is no law that all products sold by company X must be allowed in their stores. There's no law that company X has to allow gaming in their store at all. They can ban anything they want, for any reason they want, at any time they want. And banning a certain product doesn't mean that it's somehow sold by a different company, it just means that company X sells products that you can't play with in their stores.

 Baragash wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
Let's start with that, why is it allowed at all, if it's one company. I don't care about sales records of a GW employee or whatever, I just want a justification for why a company can ban a section of its own product in its own facilities, despite still being part of that company.

Because GW is dysfunctional, and has been for over a decade.

Legally they are one company, any other definition is just one you're making up.

So here, why am I supporting this company? I just came back to this hobby, and I just want to know if I should leave now.

What is there to justify? A GW employee can ban you and your GW products from the store because because they don't like the color you painted them. A random GW employee banning stuff has nothing to do with high-level policy decisions about what is and isn't part of GW the company.

The point you keep missing is that there is no law that all products sold by company X must be allowed in their stores. There's no law that company X has to allow gaming in their store at all. They can ban anything they want, for any reason they want, at any time they want. And banning a certain product doesn't mean that it's somehow sold by a different company, it just means that company X sells products that you can't play with in their stores.

Thank you, that's what I wanted to hear.

I am done with anything they produce. I am happy I left now, instead of buying anything more.

Because it's all still ultimately their company and they're allowed to do stupid things if they want to.

Just like they can (and will) prevent you from playing Necromunda or 2nd edition 40k in many stores.

How does anyone support any of this?

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Baragash wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
Let's start with that, why is it allowed at all, if it's one company. I don't care about sales records of a GW employee or whatever, I just want a justification for why a company can ban a section of its own product in its own facilities, despite still being part of that company.

Because GW is dysfunctional, and has been for over a decade.

Legally they are one company, any other definition is just one you're making up.

So here, why am I supporting this company? I just came back to this hobby, and I just want to know if I should leave now.

If you have a decent playgroup with an established base of 40k stuff, and people can agree to play a certain way (e.g. not bringing gobs of D-weapons or pentatyrant builds to every session), you can still have fun. If you're going to have to buy a ton of stuff and/or are primarily looking at pickup games at a GW store, getting back in would probably be a poor idea.

The only reason I still play is that I have some people I enjoy playing with and a great store to play in, but I've also stopped attending tournaments (which seem to have fewer people than they did in the past as well).

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Baragash wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
Let's start with that, why is it allowed at all, if it's one company. I don't care about sales records of a GW employee or whatever, I just want a justification for why a company can ban a section of its own product in its own facilities, despite still being part of that company.

Because GW is dysfunctional, and has been for over a decade.

Legally they are one company, any other definition is just one you're making up.

So here, why am I supporting this company? I just came back to this hobby, and I just want to know if I should leave now.

If you have a decent playgroup with an established base of 40k stuff, and people can agree to play a certain way (e.g. not bringing gobs of D-weapons or pentatyrant builds to every session), you can still have fun. If you're going to have to buy a ton of stuff and/or are primarily looking at pickup games at a GW store, getting back in would probably be a poor idea.

The only reason I still play is that I have some people I enjoy playing with and a great store to play in, but I've also stopped attending tournaments (which seem to have fewer people than they did in the past as well).

So I got back into it because some people I knew had nostalgia for it and wanted to give it a shot again. More so, I had access to a lot of NiB product from a company I worked for at a very cheap rate (60-70% off).

I'll probably keep the Tau products that I have and play small games with some people I know, but I'm probably going to sell the SM and GK stuff I have that's still NIB. I was planning to trade it for the new Tau stuff, but I just don't care anymore.

Honestly, I'm very thankful to the community here, they're very honest, and I respect them for that. That being said, I've never seen a community so complacent with such horrible business practices and I just don't want to be part of that. No, I'm not looking for a company that's a charity, or one that is perfect in how it behaves, I simply want one that doesn't leave their fan base in this desperate a state.

 Tinkrr wrote:
How does anyone support any of this?

Because GW's own stores are essentially irrelevant in the US. I don't really care what random GW store employees ban or don't ban because I have very little interest in playing in a GW store, there are plenty of independent stores that are far superior in every way. I guess I could get outraged and boycott them on general principle, but I'm not going to give up a hobby that I love just because some random employee that I'll never interact with at all made a stupid decision.

 Peregrine wrote:
And banning Tau would also reduce the barrier to entry. So why should Tau be legal while FW units aren't?

Tau isn't a barrier to entry for a Dark Angels player. No one has asked to ban Tau as its existence doesn't affect the price of your own army. Unless you play Tau. Then banning it is kind of counterproductive, eh?

 Peregrine wrote:

It applies in the context that as old unit rules are retired and replaced with new versions, most of the game remains same in terms of cost because you're reusing your existing models.

Err, lol? Have you seen GW's new releases lately? Even when they aren't releasing new (and often powerful) kits they're publishing blatantly overpowered formations that encourage you to buy tons of new models to complete them.

Just as Forgeworld was banned because the players did not want it, if formations prove to be an issue, they would get the same treatment. So far though no one is complaining about those. Most of them can be run with minimal squad sizes and the largest ones don't fit the point values of most games. Formations are actually a neat way to get players to buy LESS because they can do MORE with fewer models by specializing their army in a certain direction.

 Peregrine wrote:

There is a direct and real advantage taken when you are capable of performing actions ordinarily barred to you simply because you spent money on figures and rules exclusive to Forgeworld.

And there is a direct and real advantage taken when you are capable of performing actions ordinarily barred to you simply because you spent money on figures and rules exclusive to the Tau army. So why should FW be banned while Tau are legal? Why should I have to choose between limiting my options or spending hundreds of dollars on the new Tau models?

I haven't limited your options at all. Our community elected to limit our options. You are still free to do whatever you want at your local meta. As for why Tau are permitted? Because you have to start somewhere and that somewhere is the GW Core codices and their associated models. Frankly, Orks are more expensive to play.

 Peregrine wrote:
I must stress the fact that the decision to prohibit Forgeworld was agreed upon as a community in order to limit the costs involved with playing the game. No one wants to feel like they can't afford the nice things everyone else is bringing from the land of Rainbows and Unicorns. So those things simply aren't brought.

I see. So it's ok to ban FW models and demand that people who did buy FW armies buy a bunch of new stuff? Why is it ok to insist that I spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars on new models so that you don't have to be threatened by the existence of new options? Why is your hobby budget more important than mine?

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Baragash wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
Let's start with that, why is it allowed at all, if it's one company. I don't care about sales records of a GW employee or whatever, I just want a justification for why a company can ban a section of its own product in its own facilities, despite still being part of that company.

Because GW is dysfunctional, and has been for over a decade.

Legally they are one company, any other definition is just one you're making up.

So here, why am I supporting this company? I just came back to this hobby, and I just want to know if I should leave now.

If you have a decent playgroup with an established base of 40k stuff, and people can agree to play a certain way (e.g. not bringing gobs of D-weapons or pentatyrant builds to every session), you can still have fun. If you're going to have to buy a ton of stuff and/or are primarily looking at pickup games at a GW store, getting back in would probably be a poor idea.

The only reason I still play is that I have some people I enjoy playing with and a great store to play in, but I've also stopped attending tournaments (which seem to have fewer people than they did in the past as well).

So I got back into it because some people I knew had nostalgia for it and wanted to give it a shot again. More so, I had access to a lot of NiB product from a company I worked for at a very cheap rate (60-70% off).

I'll probably keep the Tau products that I have and play small games with some people I know, but I'm probably going to sell the SM and GK stuff I have that's still NIB. I was planning to trade it for the new Tau stuff, but I just don't care anymore.

Honestly, I'm very thankful to the community here, they're very honest, and I respect them for that. That being said, I've never seen a community so complacent with such horrible business practices and I just don't want to be part of that. No, I'm not looking for a company that's a charity, or one that is perfect in how it behaves, I simply want one that doesn't leave their fan base in this desperate a state.

I don't know if it's complacency, we complain loudly about it on forums like this, but we also know that GW isn't listening. There's also a "well *** 'em, we'll do our own thing" type deal, and with tournaments & events, those are pretty much entirely player organized and run independently of GW, and you get a lot of house rules and changes there.

I mean, I think I've played a grand total of two games in an actual GW shop ever? And that was when they still had a battle bunker in LA. Aside from that it's all been FLGS stores, so what GW stores do in their house is largely irrelevant to me at this point

However, I, and many other people obviously, have also dramatically scaled back spending on GW products as backlash against many of their practices, as evidenced by the fact that their last revenue report shows they're back to about where they were in 1997 (adjusted for inflation) and are selling fewer products to fewer people than they have been in the past.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
How does anyone support any of this?

Because GW's own stores are essentially irrelevant in the US. I don't really care what random GW store employees ban or don't ban because I have very little interest in playing in a GW store, there are plenty of independent stores that are far superior in every way. I guess I could get outraged and boycott them on general principle, but I'm not going to give up a hobby that I love just because some random employee that I'll never interact with at all made a stupid decision.

I think someone who was famous once said something along the lines of "A company divide against itself can not stand." (Yes I know the original quote)

I'm not asking you to boycott them, there's no reason for that as those who have already invested enough aren't exactly investing more. I also understand that as someone who is just returning to the hobby, with little stock in the product doesn't exactly experience the same sunken cost fallacies as others may have.

All I'm saying is that this franchise is rather depressing to an outsider, and it doesn't really create a welcoming atmosphere, not because of the community which is actually the major selling point, but because of the company. You and your playgroup will probably be fine, as you have each other, but for someone like me, and many others looking to come back, or simply to get into the GW line, there's honestly almost no reason to do so. As such, I'm sorry if it offends you, or any others, but I no longer intend to play the game or purchase their product. I'll paint what I have, unsubscribe from my recent MWG Vault membership, and move on with my life. I wish you all the best.

 Tinkrr wrote:
and it doesn't really create a welcoming atmosphere

How exactly is that? If you're one of the vast majority of GW customers in the US who have access to non-GW stores why does it matter how welcoming their own retail stores are? I can count on one hand the number of times I've ever been in one, and I don't feel like I've missed out on anything. It might be annoying that GW's own stores suck but it's an issue that doesn't really matter here. Go play the game and have fun at a nice welcoming independent store, or even with friends outside of a store.

Also, remember that this "hostility" is not standard GW policy. It's an occasional thing we hear about random GW stores doing. Most of the time FW models are legal, and the few times I've been in a GW store I've had no problems at all with using mine.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Baragash wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
Let's start with that, why is it allowed at all, if it's one company. I don't care about sales records of a GW employee or whatever, I just want a justification for why a company can ban a section of its own product in its own facilities, despite still being part of that company.

Because GW is dysfunctional, and has been for over a decade.

Legally they are one company, any other definition is just one you're making up.

So here, why am I supporting this company? I just came back to this hobby, and I just want to know if I should leave now.

If you have a decent playgroup with an established base of 40k stuff, and people can agree to play a certain way (e.g. not bringing gobs of D-weapons or pentatyrant builds to every session), you can still have fun. If you're going to have to buy a ton of stuff and/or are primarily looking at pickup games at a GW store, getting back in would probably be a poor idea.

The only reason I still play is that I have some people I enjoy playing with and a great store to play in, but I've also stopped attending tournaments (which seem to have fewer people than they did in the past as well).

So I got back into it because some people I knew had nostalgia for it and wanted to give it a shot again. More so, I had access to a lot of NiB product from a company I worked for at a very cheap rate (60-70% off).

I'll probably keep the Tau products that I have and play small games with some people I know, but I'm probably going to sell the SM and GK stuff I have that's still NIB. I was planning to trade it for the new Tau stuff, but I just don't care anymore.

Honestly, I'm very thankful to the community here, they're very honest, and I respect them for that. That being said, I've never seen a community so complacent with such horrible business practices and I just don't want to be part of that. No, I'm not looking for a company that's a charity, or one that is perfect in how it behaves, I simply want one that doesn't leave their fan base in this desperate a state.

I don't know if it's complacency, we complain loudly about it on forums like this, but we also know that GW isn't listening. There's also a "well *** 'em, we'll do our own thing" type deal, and with tournaments & events, those are pretty much entirely player organized and run independently of GW, and you get a lot of house rules and changes there.

I mean, I think I've played a grand total of two games in an actual GW shop ever? And that was when they still had a battle bunker in LA. Aside from that it's all been FLGS stores, so what GW stores do in their house is largely irrelevant to me at this point

However, I, and many other people obviously, have also dramatically scaled back spending on GW products as backlash against many of their practices, as evidenced by the fact that their last revenue report shows they're back to about where they were in 1997 (adjusted for inflation) and are selling fewer products to fewer people than they have been in the past.

Actually, that's the definition of complacency. Though I do want to state right now that I actually highly respect the community around the company, especially groups like Frontline Gaming who make a lot of the tournament rules, as the ITC format does seem rather amazing, it's just that everything I've read on here, especially from moderate people seems so discouraging, yourself included, and I think you're actually a very reasonable person.

So I've worked for FLGS before, and I've had positions that made me look over their finances and more. More importantly I worked enough conventions for them, everything from large scale shows like PAX to small anime expos, and the one product we basically never brought was GW, despite it being in the store, it simply didn't warrant the shelf space there, and whenever a store like that went out of business, the product that rotted the most was GW product. That's just not right, especially in a world where MtG cards that are worth hundreds of dollars each have a turn around rate faster than they could keep in stock.

See, I don't like that. The same thing is happening now with WoW, and it just makes me feel bad that these two nostalgic things for me are slowly dying. Granted, WoW's loss is magnitudes greater than GW could ever hope to even imagine being able to lose and still being the biggest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
and it doesn't really create a welcoming atmosphere

How exactly is that? If you're one of the vast majority of GW customers in the US who have access to non-GW stores why does it matter how welcoming their own retail stores are? I can count on one hand the number of times I've ever been in one, and I don't feel like I've missed out on anything. It might be annoying that GW's own stores suck but it's an issue that doesn't really matter here. Go play the game and have fun at a nice welcoming independent store, or even with friends outside of a store.

Also, remember that this "hostility" is not standard GW policy. It's an occasional thing we hear about random GW stores doing. Most of the time FW models are legal, and the few times I've been in a GW store I've had no problems at all with using mine.

Do you understand that when there are such problems, no matter how minor, and the parent company doesn't step in to quash them, it creates an incredibly toxic atmosphere for anyone coming into the franchise?

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Baragash wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
Let's start with that, why is it allowed at all, if it's one company. I don't care about sales records of a GW employee or whatever, I just want a justification for why a company can ban a section of its own product in its own facilities, despite still being part of that company.

Because GW is dysfunctional, and has been for over a decade.

Legally they are one company, any other definition is just one you're making up.

So here, why am I supporting this company? I just came back to this hobby, and I just want to know if I should leave now.

If you have a decent playgroup with an established base of 40k stuff, and people can agree to play a certain way (e.g. not bringing gobs of D-weapons or pentatyrant builds to every session), you can still have fun. If you're going to have to buy a ton of stuff and/or are primarily looking at pickup games at a GW store, getting back in would probably be a poor idea.

The only reason I still play is that I have some people I enjoy playing with and a great store to play in, but I've also stopped attending tournaments (which seem to have fewer people than they did in the past as well).

So I got back into it because some people I knew had nostalgia for it and wanted to give it a shot again. More so, I had access to a lot of NiB product from a company I worked for at a very cheap rate (60-70% off).

I'll probably keep the Tau products that I have and play small games with some people I know, but I'm probably going to sell the SM and GK stuff I have that's still NIB. I was planning to trade it for the new Tau stuff, but I just don't care anymore.

Honestly, I'm very thankful to the community here, they're very honest, and I respect them for that. That being said, I've never seen a community so complacent with such horrible business practices and I just don't want to be part of that. No, I'm not looking for a company that's a charity, or one that is perfect in how it behaves, I simply want one that doesn't leave their fan base in this desperate a state.

I don't know if it's complacency, we complain loudly about it on forums like this, but we also know that GW isn't listening. There's also a "well *** 'em, we'll do our own thing" type deal, and with tournaments & events, those are pretty much entirely player organized and run independently of GW, and you get a lot of house rules and changes there.

I mean, I think I've played a grand total of two games in an actual GW shop ever? And that was when they still had a battle bunker in LA. Aside from that it's all been FLGS stores, so what GW stores do in their house is largely irrelevant to me at this point

However, I, and many other people obviously, have also dramatically scaled back spending on GW products as backlash against many of their practices, as evidenced by the fact that their last revenue report shows they're back to about where they were in 1997 (adjusted for inflation) and are selling fewer products to fewer people than they have been in the past.

Actually, that's the definition of complacency. Though I do want to state right now that I actually highly respect the community around the company, especially groups like Frontline Gaming who make a lot of the tournament rules, as the ITC format does seem rather amazing, it's just that everything I've read on here, especially from moderate people seems so discouraging, yourself included, and I think you're actually a very reasonable person.

So I've worked for FLGS before, and I've had positions that made me look over their finances and more. More importantly I worked enough conventions for them, everything from large scale shows like PAX to small anime expos, and the one product we basically never brought was GW, despite it being in the store, it simply didn't warrant the shelf space there, and whenever a store like that went out of business, the product that rotted the most was GW product. That's just not right, especially in a world where MtG cards that are worth hundreds of dollars each have a turn around rate faster than they could keep in stock.

See, I don't like that. The same thing is happening now with WoW, and it just makes me feel bad that these two nostalgic things for me are slowly dying. Granted, WoW's loss is magnitudes greater than GW could ever hope to even imagine being able to lose and still being the biggest.

Fundamentally, GW's made it clear they're not listening. They proudly state how they don't do market research in their reports to investors, how they're a model company (and *not* a game company) in said reports as well, they've shut down basically every avenue of communication they've had between their GT's and Games Days, White Dwarf letters, Designers Notes, their own Forums, and dismantled their Facebook pages. The only way to make anything felt by GW is to hit that pocketbook, and I think the last time I bought anything GW was 8 months ago? The last time I bought a Codex book was the current IG book at the end of 6E I think? It's the only route left open.

GW's been having problems. Fantasy died because of them and the absurdly high cost of entry, Age of Sigmar doesn't look to be doing any better, and 40k is getting increasingly outrageous and Marketing driven (with things like Web-Bundle exclusive Rules and the like).

 Tinkrr wrote:
Do you understand that when there are such problems, no matter how minor, and the parent company doesn't step in to quash them, it creates an incredibly toxic atmosphere for anyone coming into the franchise?

It doesn't create a toxic atmosphere for the community because most US customers are never in a GW store to experience the bad policies. If you're a new player coming into the franchise then it has little or no effect on you because most of the time you're going to be playing at an independent store and the only time you'll ever hear about the existence of GW's own retail stores is when one of your fellow players says "I'm glad we have a good store to play at, GW stores suck". I'm not going to defend the decision to ban FW products, but you're making a big deal out of an issue that has no measurable impact on your own gaming experience, or on the gaming experiences of most 40k players in the US.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Baragash wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
Let's start with that, why is it allowed at all, if it's one company. I don't care about sales records of a GW employee or whatever, I just want a justification for why a company can ban a section of its own product in its own facilities, despite still being part of that company.

Because GW is dysfunctional, and has been for over a decade.

Legally they are one company, any other definition is just one you're making up.

So here, why am I supporting this company? I just came back to this hobby, and I just want to know if I should leave now.

If you have a decent playgroup with an established base of 40k stuff, and people can agree to play a certain way (e.g. not bringing gobs of D-weapons or pentatyrant builds to every session), you can still have fun. If you're going to have to buy a ton of stuff and/or are primarily looking at pickup games at a GW store, getting back in would probably be a poor idea.

The only reason I still play is that I have some people I enjoy playing with and a great store to play in, but I've also stopped attending tournaments (which seem to have fewer people than they did in the past as well).

So I got back into it because some people I knew had nostalgia for it and wanted to give it a shot again. More so, I had access to a lot of NiB product from a company I worked for at a very cheap rate (60-70% off).

I'll probably keep the Tau products that I have and play small games with some people I know, but I'm probably going to sell the SM and GK stuff I have that's still NIB. I was planning to trade it for the new Tau stuff, but I just don't care anymore.

Honestly, I'm very thankful to the community here, they're very honest, and I respect them for that. That being said, I've never seen a community so complacent with such horrible business practices and I just don't want to be part of that. No, I'm not looking for a company that's a charity, or one that is perfect in how it behaves, I simply want one that doesn't leave their fan base in this desperate a state.

I don't know if it's complacency, we complain loudly about it on forums like this, but we also know that GW isn't listening. There's also a "well *** 'em, we'll do our own thing" type deal, and with tournaments & events, those are pretty much entirely player organized and run independently of GW, and you get a lot of house rules and changes there.

I mean, I think I've played a grand total of two games in an actual GW shop ever? And that was when they still had a battle bunker in LA. Aside from that it's all been FLGS stores, so what GW stores do in their house is largely irrelevant to me at this point

However, I, and many other people obviously, have also dramatically scaled back spending on GW products as backlash against many of their practices, as evidenced by the fact that their last revenue report shows they're back to about where they were in 1997 (adjusted for inflation) and are selling fewer products to fewer people than they have been in the past.

Actually, that's the definition of complacency. Though I do want to state right now that I actually highly respect the community around the company, especially groups like Frontline Gaming who make a lot of the tournament rules, as the ITC format does seem rather amazing, it's just that everything I've read on here, especially from moderate people seems so discouraging, yourself included, and I think you're actually a very reasonable person.

So I've worked for FLGS before, and I've had positions that made me look over their finances and more. More importantly I worked enough conventions for them, everything from large scale shows like PAX to small anime expos, and the one product we basically never brought was GW, despite it being in the store, it simply didn't warrant the shelf space there, and whenever a store like that went out of business, the product that rotted the most was GW product. That's just not right, especially in a world where MtG cards that are worth hundreds of dollars each have a turn around rate faster than they could keep in stock.

See, I don't like that. The same thing is happening now with WoW, and it just makes me feel bad that these two nostalgic things for me are slowly dying. Granted, WoW's loss is magnitudes greater than GW could ever hope to even imagine being able to lose and still being the biggest.

Fundamentally, GW's made it clear they're not listening. They proudly state how they don't do market research in their reports to investors, how they're a model company (and *not* a game company) in said reports as well, they've shut down basically every avenue of communication they've had between their GT's and Games Days, White Dwarf letters, Designers Notes, their own Forums, and dismantled their Facebook pages. The only way to make anything felt by GW is to hit that pocketbook, and I think the last time I bought anything GW was 8 months ago? The last time I bought a Codex book was the current IG book at the end of 6E I think? It's the only route left open.

GW's been having problems. Fantasy died because of them and the absurdly high cost of entry, Age of Sigmar doesn't look to be doing any better, and 40k is getting increasingly outrageous and Marketing driven (with things like Web-Bundle exclusive Rules and the like).

This is actually something I hear all the time, even the ITC guys said that GW states only "20%" of the people who buy their product play the game but at the same time GW states they don't do market research, so they have no idea where that number originates from. I just don't really understand what that company is planning, or thinking, but at least Mantic isn't too worried about which models are used and maybe it'll catch on, right? The whole genre just needs a company to throw it into the spotlight, but I'm not sure Mantic is the one.

I mean I understand why GW was a model company and not a game company for a long time, as it's really easy to pirate a rule set for a game, but really hard to pirate models. However, with the introduction of more companies producing models, and the format of game companies receiving heavy support despite being free to play, simply because they produce a quality product, it's just weird they cling to that concept.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
Do you understand that when there are such problems, no matter how minor, and the parent company doesn't step in to quash them, it creates an incredibly toxic atmosphere for anyone coming into the franchise?

It doesn't create a toxic atmosphere for the community because most US customers are never in a GW store to experience the bad policies. If you're a new player coming into the franchise then it has little or no effect on you because most of the time you're going to be playing at an independent store and the only time you'll ever hear about the existence of GW's own retail stores is when one of your fellow players says "I'm glad we have a good store to play at, GW stores suck". I'm not going to defend the decision to ban FW products, but you're making a big deal out of an issue that has no measurable impact on your own gaming experience, or on the gaming experiences of most 40k players in the US.

Look, I don't know how to put it more clearly to you. The last time I played was in 3rd Edition, I just came back to the game and the first thing I saw on these forums was the thread about a GW store banning FW products, despite playing in only FLGS in the past. That is one of the worst welcomes I've ever had to a game.

I know you might believe one thing or another, but I am essentially a new player, and after our conversation, and what I've seen on here in a myriad of threads, and not just that one about FW, I don't want to play this game. I'm sorry, but that's just the case, and I know the people who have gotten back into the game with me, lost interest too, and well before me. This is not a good environment for new players, or ones returning to the game, and this is coming from groups of players who have returned to many franchises that aren't seen as particularly great.

Do you understand what I'm saying?

 Vaktathi wrote:
It limited growth but the idea that FW is a barrier to entry only holds true if you believe FW is mandatory, and it would only be mandatory if its conferring some sort of power advantage, for which there is no evidence.

Power as in winning? Or power as in allowing new tactics? Or even flat out replacing existing units? All of these exist for some FW models and it's not our goal to separate the wheat from the chaff. More options exist, some good and some not so good, and that's enough. Perhaps you don't understand what is meant by the term mandatory and are taking it too strongly. Strictly speaking, there aren't many models in any codex that are mandatory to play the faction, even a Land Raider is optional. But its existence and the tactics associated with it make grabbing one mandatory if you are looking to employ those options. Denying Forgeworld means you aren't losing out on options by not purchasing the models because the options are forbidden outright.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Have you looked at the last three years of GW releases? I don't think that argument holds any water, especially if you're not counting HH stuff. Relatively little FW stuff introduces truly new capabilities to armies that didn't have them before, and in some cases where it does, it's often very much needed.

Very much needed... as in Mandatory? Again, since we're not looking to separate the good from the bad, it's just all prohibited. Like saying Lords of War are prohibited even if mine is an 888 pt tracked behemoth and yours is a 200 pt special character.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Allies and multiple detachments and formations are rarely banned, most big tournaments put a couple of relatively light restrictions on there (like a maximum of 3 detachments), but aside from that allow people to go balls-hog on allies and formations.

That's nice for those tournaments??? But we've been discussing my local meta here for two pages and Allies are indeed banned with multiple detachments/formations occasionally so.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Sure, a Drop Pod in a CSM army is theoretically not organic to a strictly Codex CSM army. However given that a Dreadclaw is *triple* the cost of a basic drop pod, it's not an option you'll see utilized very option, especially considering CSM's don't have many units that could take tremendous advantage of the capabilities in the way say, combat=squading Sternguard can. If people can deal with SM armies with drop pods, Dreadclaws are absolutely not going to throw a wrench into anyone's works.

Right, and I totally agree with you that it's not some huge advantage or that it will be taken in every army ever made. But the fact that it would taken at all, that it adds a new way to play CSM, that it can potentially encourage players to purchase it and bring it to the table means it has value. Forgeworld was banned to eliminate its value so players would not feel the need to pick up something like a Dreadclaw under any circumstances. Playing with Forgeworld is like playing a video game with all the expansions when some of the players you're up against only went and bought the base game. You have more options available to you... that's all it takes to make some people not want expansions at all. It may not even provide you with a tactical advantage if you never use the units or features given by the expansions. Yet people who haven't purchased the expansions will always feel like they are at disadvantage. That's the element we're attempting to avoid by evening the playing field (or spending field, in this case).

 Vaktathi wrote:

Forgeworld expands the possibilities beyond the limits of the regular codex (at substantial monetary cost) and that is something the playerbase has determined to be unwanted due to the cost involved. There is a direct and real advantage taken when you are capable of performing actions ordinarily barred to you simply because you spent money on figures and rules exclusive to Forgeworld.

And yet nobody has a problem with allies and multiple detachments doing this exact thing, but on an order of magnitude worse?

Actually, allies are very much considered a problem, especially in my meta where most of the players play a single faction. Even here on Dakka it's addressed, check out the general discussion boards once in a while. We do have a problem with Allies and they are banned. Formations/detachments are still permitted though often restricted in number. They have actually been instrumental in focusing armies and providing the necessary buffs to field lists of units players actually want to paint instead of the ones that are most effective standalone. They have even succeeded in turning some worthless units into solid picks, which made the veterans and inexperienced newbies who bought those models quite happy.

As for FW pricing, think of it this way... playing 40k with just GW means you spent $100 Chaos Dollars. Playing with GW -and- FW means you've probably spent $150 Chaos Dollars. It's still more money to play the same game which is bad for the new players and bad for the business being a barrier to entry and all. It doesn't matter if you think FW is similar in price to GW (and I really disagree on that, some models are over $300). What matters is it's a greater expense for the community. Even if you don't buy FW yourself, you're up against folks who do, and I've already illustrated why that would be a problem. A huge chunk of the meta is players new to the game and limiting the rules is the best way to ease them into the hobby. These aren't the ancient times of 40k where we could buy a squad and a captain and be done collecting.

 Vaktathi wrote:
And is there a similar ban on allies, formations, and multiple detachments? If not, then the ban on FW is absurd. Likewise, the overwhelmingly vast majority of FW stuff doesn't bring in any major new capabilities. A Leman Russ Annihilator isn't bringing some radical new capability to an IG army, any more than a Decimator Daemon Engine is to a CSM army. In the cases where you do get capabilities, in many instances they're often critically needed to enable some factions to have a realistic chance against many newer armies, such as with Sicarans and CSM's against FMC spam or Eldar.

There is a ban on loads of things, actually.

No Allies
No Lords of War
No Super Heavies
No Gargantuan Creatures
No Fortifications other than Aegis Defense Line
No ForgeWorld rules
No Apocalypse formations
No more than two CAD/detachments/formations/auxiliary