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AKA i treat it like any other unit, i hand over my list and offer to show my opponent the rules. Truthfully any player is within there right to refuse to play a game but to treat some books over others as more legitimate at face value is odd.

Most of the time FW are better then usual units. This is actually the reason why you can't bring any models or a limited numbers of FW's models to most of the tournements. However, i think bringing 1 unit is no big deal but you have to discuss about it with your opponent. Personally, if you show me more then 2 FW's models ill probably pass my turn, except if it is a competitive game. Have fun !

Most tournaments use ITC rules which fully allow FW. I'm also going to ask for specific examples of FW units that are better than the codex equivalent.

Or just look better because the thing they're replacing is pretty awful.

alex0911 wrote:
Most of the time FW are better then usual units.

Um, how so? Is a Leman Russ Annihilator better than any other Leman Russ? A sentinel powerlifter better than any other Sentinel? A Land Raider Proteus better than a normal Land Raider? Even when they are "better", they usually cost a whole lot more as well (e.g. Contemptor dreads at ~200+pts over basic ~100pt Dreadnoughts). They've got a couple of goofs, but it's hardly a consistent trend.

This is actually the reason why you can't bring any models or a limited numbers of FW's models to most of the tournements.

No, it's not. The reason is that including FW means more work for the organizers and fewer people are familiar with their rules since they're not as easily available, or, in the case of store-supported events, they can't make money off FW stuff and thus don't want to deal with it. It has nothing to do with power level, and you'll find that in tournaments that allow FW units, very few (if any) top placing armies include FW at all.

Nobody wants to play against my Death Korps because they are unfamiliar with the rules.

 Vaktathi wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I recently played a game with my space marine army accompanied by solomon lok. He was the only forge world unit in my army, i had his stats with me and he doesn't exactly do anything that is out there. one opponent was totally on board and we had a great game.

my second guy of the night started off being a bit weird about it, making comments that forgeworld is outside the game. When i produced the pages that word for word say that most forge world units are meant for standard games he stopped for a while. Latter when he had some bad shooting due to Lok's warlord trait giving my marines fnp while they sat on the deciding objective, he had a mini freakout claiming that Lok's warlord trait is grossly over powered. the game was not fun from there on.

Has anyone else had people react negatively to a forge world unit, even ones that don't seem particularly cheesy (unless someone wants to argue that Lok is OP)

It's always been a crutch for people to complain about when things don't go their way. There's nothing from FW that matches the power of anything from GW's mainline offerings. Sure, some stuff can be abused, and a couple of notably overpowered things, but not anything more than anything else really. Certainly nothing like GW putting D weapons on 35pt infantry or sub 300pt D-weapon toting Gargantuan Creatures.

Mostly it's a boogeyman.

And yet literally every game I play there's someone saying "oh that codex unit stinks, you need to use the Forgeworld version" and it'll cost 3x in dollars for the model and 2x in dollars for the book.

i'm curious what codex do you play

TheManWithNoPlan wrote:Nobody wants to play against my Death Korps because they are unfamiliar with the rules.

It's 95% an Imperial Guard army without access to half the stuff and an extra special rule, can't they not be bothered to read the like couple pages of extra stuff for them?

TheSilo wrote:
And yet literally every game I play there's someone saying "oh that codex unit stinks, you need to use the Forgeworld version" and it'll cost 3x in dollars for the model and 2x in dollars for the book.

For which army? About the only army I can think of where that might hold true is for CSM's, but that's really more the fault of the CSM codex being designed and costed for a 4E/5E paradigm than any issues with FW really.

Well, tau codex fliers. Although they are in no way necessary, are actually bad, and the unit you would use instead (barracuda) is well balanced.

Question for you all:

If I were to whip out 3 Big Squiggoths (not Giant Squiggoths,) then proceed to open the Apocalypse book for the rules, would people complain that I was taking an Apocalypse unit? Is there any difference in opinion regarding Apocalypse units, IA Units and "rules included in the box" units?

 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
Nobody wants to play against my Death Korps because they are unfamiliar with the rules.

"Unfamiliar with the rules" really is the most important thing here. The FW books cost molto dollars and few game shops carry them so you can't really take a peek before the game. And it does slow things down if your opponent wants to read your entire FW book while you're setting up the game. Facing unfamiliar units straight up is always going to annoy some of us, and it's even more annoying to take a shot at something you think should die if your opponent then shows you Special Rule X that you didn't know about. Knowing what the units are, what they do and how tough they are is a pretty important part of doing a 40K battle.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Question for you all:

If I were to whip out 3 Big Squiggoths (not Giant Squiggoths,) then proceed to open the Apocalypse book for the rules, would people complain that I was taking an Apocalypse unit? Is there any difference in opinion regarding Apocalypse units, IA Units and "rules included in the box" units?

Some might, but that would probably because they don't like playing with those units, and less that they "don't know the rules". Which has always seemed like a bit of a half-assed excuse to me. I mean, do you have to memorize every aspect of your opponents codex before you will play them? If you are really that concerned, just spend 2 minutes looking at their rules.

I find the i'm unfamiliar a weak excuse. This is the internet age. If you want to know something you can find it. that being said any opponent should have a copy of their unit's rules on them.

Sorry a lynx on a skyshield and hornet add power to an already broken army. You cant say "majority of forgeworld is no more broken" when people arent bringing the reasonable stuff. Look at the ork biker boss. Everyone says he is practically mandatory for a competative ork list, and most tournament lists run him. Because he is flat out the best choice, besides being able to take bikes as troops again, he gets an at innitiative power klaw. You can say hes not strictly better because "he dosent have access to lucky stick" but so what. People run that space marine librarian who always gets invis specifically because there is no roll for it.

All that being said, none of it matters anymore because the game is so fundementally broken its like telling a pyro to put the lighter down before he sets the drapes on fire, while the whole house is already burning.

 Orock wrote:
Sorry a lynx on a skyshield and hornet add power to an already broken army. You cant say "majority of forgeworld is no more broken" when people arent bringing the reasonable stuff.

Nobody is saying you can't break Forgeworld stuff, anything can be made broken. You can put a Reaver Titan on a skyshield too and FW has nothing to do with that aside from casting the resin. What people are saying is that FW stuff isn't any more egregious than anything else. FW aren't the guys that wrote rules for 35pt T6 Fearless infantry with D weapons either.

Look at the ork biker boss. Everyone says he is practically mandatory for a competative ork list, and most tournament lists run him. Because he is flat out the best choice, besides being able to take bikes as troops again, he gets an at innitiative power klaw. You can say hes not strictly better because "he dosent have access to lucky stick" but so what.

The book he's from came out in 2009 early 2010 (two editions ago), nobody seemed to even realize he existed until relatively recently. Is he good? Sure. is he particularly overpowered? Not really. He's got a 4+ armor and 4+ Cover with 3 wounds. Yeah, the I4 powerfist is sweet, but he's also not going to survive the way a TWC Wolf Lord (and accompanying unit) will. Hardly the most broken thing out there.

People run that space marine librarian who always gets invis specifically because there is no roll for it.

Tigurius will generally be a greater value in most instances.

Forgeworld really helps some armies massively, CSM being an example, and with all the stuff recently produced by GW proper, I don't think its as out there as it used to be... It also adds a lot of flavour and variety to lists, and FW models are beautiful to look at

Forgeworld is amazing. Anyone who won't play against it doesn't deserve the pleasures of 40k.

 Quickjager wrote:
FW is essentially confirmation bias. No one takes it unless it is good, so when you do see it you automatically think it all is good.

[Raises hand] I take FW pieces based on how amusing I find them.
HBD and Aquila Lander are my fave toys ever. Are they OP, or verging on useful? Not even a little.

On the "It's FW, it must be OP." subject, I took that Aquila to a tournament where for the fifth round, you could challenge an opponent you'd seen during the day and felt could be fun.
Guy with a Warhound Titan challenged me because he wanted "to see if I can beat that flyer."
A medium pressure fart could beat the AL, I blocked the challenge as my list was absolute fluff.

 TheSilo wrote:
And yet literally every game I play there's someone saying "oh that codex unit stinks, you need to use the Forgeworld version" and it'll cost 3x in dollars for the model and 2x in dollars for the book.

I suppose you just ignore the times when someone says "that FW unit stinks, you need to use the codex version"? Most of the time when someone is saying "use the FW version" it's not because the FW version is overpowered relative to 40k as a whole, it's because GW sucks at game balance and put a garbage unit in the codex.


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 Orock wrote:
Sorry a lynx on a skyshield and hornet add power to an already broken army.

So FW is broken because skyshield camps are overpowered? You do realize that the skyshield is a "codex" unit, right?

People run that space marine librarian who always gets invis specifically because there is no roll for it.

And, like the skyshield, this is a problem with invisibility being blatantly overpowered and one of the worst examples of bad game design I've ever seen. If GW hadn't broken the "codex" rules the FW character would be a non-issue.

Spetulhu wrote:

 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
Nobody wants to play against my Death Korps because they are unfamiliar with the rules.

"Unfamiliar with the rules" really is the most important thing here. The FW books cost molto dollars and few game shops carry them so you can't really take a peek before the game. And it does slow things down if your opponent wants to read your entire FW book while you're setting up the game. Facing unfamiliar units straight up is always going to annoy some of us, and it's even more annoying to take a shot at something you think should die if your opponent then shows you Special Rule X that you didn't know about. Knowing what the units are, what they do and how tough they are is a pretty important part of doing a 40K battle.

Unless you feel like buying every Codex that holds true for main GW rules too.

Main reason it's banned in my local meta is for the same reason Magic the Gathering disallows sets outside of the most recent blocks for Standard. Power creep options lead to hyper-spending and that pay to win feeling.

If you've ever played a collectible card game, you'll notice how they will usually prohibit old cards from being used in tournaments. Allowing a massive pool of options, some of which are significantly more expensive (like picking up a Black Lotus for Commander), only creates power vacuums between players willing to drop thousands on the hobby versus players willing to drop tens of thousands. Veterans and Casuals, New Players and Old, too great a gulf exists when every model under the sun is permissible in the game. The players are strongly encouraged to drop money on Forgeworld models just to remain competitive, something they aren't always willing to do and that kills the customer base.

Limiting the game to just the official GW codex releases ensures there is a fixed cap for all armies that doesn't require much from the players to keep track of as new rules and models are rarely added to the fold. Like sets in a card game, GW releases batches of rules in a single book periodically and that's where the bulk of the rules come from. Dataslates are already skirting the line with what they can provide but are accepted as e-Books and codex patches still founded within the same gaming system.

It's not about not knowing the rules, those are easy to look up or ask about. It's just about not dissuading players from continuing the game by increasing the options players can draw from to fill out their list synergy with barely affordable models. There will always be some guys who can't keep up and prefer the easier to manage hobby while others will adhere to the "Gotta catch 'em all!" motto and buy out the store. Balancing the game for both sides isn't easy but clearly forcing the loaded guy to bring fewer models is the better answer over making the smaller army hobbyists dig deeper into their wallets.

So, according to your meta, it's cool to run Wraithknights because it's a GW book and thus puts a cap on the number of units they can run. But if someone runs a Contemptor dreadnought that suddenly ruins the meta and turns the game into a P2W system? It seems like a really self-contradictory reason to institute a ban like that.

In fact, using that logic, why not ban all dataslates, supplements and expansions? Actually, why not ban all Codices except the Codex: Space Marines? That way people will easily remember all their available units easily.

In my experience it's players who have been playing 40k for a long time who see FW as the overpowered stuff. At the same time, those are the ones to play games with mostly marine armies using the same units every time, never buying anything new, not keeping up with newer editions of the game, and so on.

I respect their decision to stick with their classic units/armies and not spend tons of money on new stuff like I have, but by the same token they hold onto those old ways of thinking about the game without really understanding what it's become in the context of all the armies, all the forge world books, stronghold assault, and so on.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
So, according to your meta, it's cool to run Wraithknights because it's a GW book and thus puts a cap on the number of units they can run. But if someone runs a Contemptor dreadnought that suddenly ruins the meta and turns the game into a P2W system? It seems like a really self-contradictory reason to institute a ban like that.

In fact, using that logic, why not ban all dataslates, supplements and expansions? Actually, why not ban all Codices except the Codex: Space Marines? That way people will easily remember all their available units easily.

Same reason Magic the Gathering doesn't ban all but the current set... it's too small an options pool if you do, just as allowing every card from the past 20+ years is too large a pool. It was decided that the Realm of Game Workshop Only was a reasonably diverse enough and affordable enough option for players to get into and maintain. Adding more to that would just be overdoing it. Wraithknights taken from the Craftworlds codex are also prohibited due to being Gargantuan Creatures, another restricted element regardless of their GW status. It isn't just Forgeworld that is banned... Lords of War, Super Heavies, most Fortifications, heck even Allies because they encourage owning multiple armies (along with Battle Brother shenanigans). It's particularly brutal on me as a Chaos Space Marine player because I'm forbidden from using Chaos Daemons unless I summon them, yet it's better for the guys who only own a Dark Angels army and nothing else.

As with card games, there can exist busted cards in any meta, you can choose to live with it or ban them. Doing the latter will just move other cards to the new broken-as-hell status because there will always be something better than something else. The current Wraithknights and Codices are of the latest sets or versions, they will cycle out eventually just as cards in a usability pool do. The local meta accepts some things and denies others purely to prevent the game from being viewed as pay-to-win and preventing the bringing of five Wraithknights and a Windrider Host to the table. When you allow these things, your players have to buy their own equivalents and many would rather just quit the game at that point. The Plasma Obliterator was a perfect example of Limited Edition pay-to-win nonsense where anyone with a credit card and a distaste for money can venture over to Ebay and pick up a Heavy Support that surpasses most other codex options. I own three so I can field them in Apocalypse games but I'm not allowed to run them in the regular events to be fair to everyone.

The rules make perfect sense to the community, no one is forcing you to use them yourself. Rules don't get arbitrarily made, they come as a result of negative play experiences and the subsequent restrictions that return the game to a collectively acceptable state.


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 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
In my experience it's players who have been playing 40k for a long time who see FW as the overpowered stuff. At the same time, those are the ones to play games with mostly marine armies using the same units every time, never buying anything new, not keeping up with newer editions of the game, and so on.

I respect their decision to stick with their classic units/armies and not spend tons of money on new stuff like I have, but by the same token they hold onto those old ways of thinking about the game without really understanding what it's become in the context of all the armies, all the forge world books, stronghold assault, and so on.

Likewise, I respect the decision of new players who look at Forgeworld, Fortifications, Lords of War, and other extra expenses in the game and withdraw from the daunting pricetag it all entails. Why hello there, Timmy! Are you interested in getting into Warhammer? That'll be $5000 please. Yes, we do accept American Express.

The pill is easier to swallow when it's strictly what's available in the codex and supplements/dataslates. Especially since the supplements/dataslates usually use the SAME models with different rules and don't require additional purchases unless it's a special character or something.

 Arkaine wrote:
Main reason it's banned in my local meta is for the same reason Magic the Gathering disallows sets outside of the most recent blocks for Standard. Power creep options lead to hyper-spending and that pay to win feeling.

If you've ever played a collectible card game, you'll notice how they will usually prohibit old cards from being used in tournaments. Allowing a massive pool of options, some of which are significantly more expensive (like picking up a Black Lotus for Commander), only creates power vacuums between players willing to drop thousands on the hobby versus players willing to drop tens of thousands.

More to the point, older cards can only be re-sold on secondary markets, and thus generate no revenue for the producer of the game.

Limiting the game to just the official GW codex releases ensures there is a fixed cap for all armies that doesn't require much from the players to keep track of as new rules and models are rarely added to the fold.

This assumes that FW adds a whole new power level, which there is relatively little evidence for, particularly as events that allow FW don't commonly see armies using FW (either entire lists or single units) placing spectacularly high on any sort of routine basis.

By far a larger problem is having things like formations exclusive to web bundles, random $4.99 unit dataslates & formations, etc, but nobody seems to want to ban those.

 Vaktathi wrote:
More to the point, older cards can only be re-sold on secondary markets, and thus generate no revenue for the producer of the game.

Ah but this wasn't true of the newer Game of Thrones LCG which was only five years old at its death. The new Game of Thrones: Second Edition LCG came as a direct result of the card pool growing too large, the ban list getting out of hand, and new players being discouraged from joining the game due to the huge cardpool they would need to purchase. Availability wasn't the issue because Fantasy Flight was reprinting the old packs regularly. The prohibitive cost to join and power creep stemming from a bloat of options was the reason behind switching to a retiring set system like other collectible card games. Even Games Workshop retires old codexes by replacing them with new versions that supplant the old rules, keeping the options limited and manageable even if they're grown a bit over the years as the game develops.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Limiting the game to just the official GW codex releases ensures there is a fixed cap for all armies that doesn't require much from the players to keep track of as new rules and models are rarely added to the fold.

This assumes that FW adds a whole new power level, which there is relatively little evidence for, particularly as events that allow FW don't commonly see armies using FW (either entire lists or single units) placing spectacularly high on any sort of routine basis.

Not at all, the power level of Forgeworld is not the issue. It just adds another layer to the game like a new set or expansion does to other games, only it's a particularly large set that offers tactics and strengths the default codex wouldn't normally be capable of such as the Gargantuan Tyranid creatures or the Chaos Dreadclaws. As again with card games, even if you create two completely balanced sets, once you allow them to be used in tandem unexpected synergies will begin to appear that are more efficient than the self-contained set combos alone. Ergo, allowing Forgeworld makes buying Forgeworld mandatory. It doesn't have to be strong, it just has to be different. People will find complementary models for their army on their own.

 Vaktathi wrote:
By far a larger problem is having things like formations exclusive to web bundles, random $4.99 unit dataslates & formations, etc, but nobody seems to want to ban those.

Mainly because those can be shared. They're ebooks, once one of the community buys it, everyone has access to it.

 Arkaine wrote:
Ergo, allowing Forgeworld makes buying Forgeworld mandatory.

Ergo, allowing ANY option makes buying those options mandatory. Therefore only generic 5-man tactical squads with no upgrades and a single captain with no upgrades should be allowed. After all, options make the game more expensive, so why draw the line at removing FW?

Mainly because those can be shared. They're ebooks, once one of the community buys it, everyone has access to it.

I see, so because you can pirate rules it doesn't matter how much it costs to buy them legally, but the same argument doesn't apply to FW books?

 Peregrine wrote:
Ergo, allowing ANY option makes buying those options mandatory. Therefore only generic 5-man tactical squads with no upgrades and a single captain with no upgrades should be allowed. After all, options make the game more expensive, so why draw the line at removing FW?

I already answered that, see above for the explanation. Indeed, the more options allowed, the more mandatory purchases exist, but you've got to start somewhere. Forgeworld simply happens to be such a large subset of the models that exist that it's simple enough to quarantine. Dataslates and other official products are minor in comparison. Rather than going through every codex and determining what can and cannot be brought (such as your example of "BUILD MORE TAC SQUADS!"), it's all permitted. Rather than going through every piece of Forgeworld and doing the same, it's all prohibited. Similar wide restrictions exist for things like Lords of War, which don't differentiate between "fair" LoWs and Wraithknights.

Could we limit everything to just 5-man tac squads? Of course. But then the store would never sell anything and we'd be out of a venue. If there's such a thing as too much, then there's also such a thing as too little.

 Peregrine wrote:
I see, so because you can pirate rules it doesn't matter how much it costs to buy them legally, but the same argument doesn't apply to FW books?

Who said anything about pirating? A player buys a dataslate and now everyone at the game store has access to it. It's called borrowing. Asking someone for rules out of an ebook is way different from borrowing their Dimachaeron.

Branding? As a recently returning player I come from an era of FW basically being the "Titan" shop, so it's weird coming back to a more general FW world.

More so, GW and FW are in a way two different companies which is very harsh for newer players. Heck I'm sure I've seen a thread here where someone stated their GW store didn't allow FW models, which doesn't help either.

It's just for two companies working together, they feel like a hot mess.