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Cookie cutter? Lol. You really should read my blog. I'm pretty sure no one calls my lists cookie cutter. So I assume this wasn't directed at me. If it was you REALLY don't know me.

 Jancoran wrote:
Cookie cutter? Lol. You really should read my blog. I'm pretty sure no one calls my lists cookie cutter. So I assume this wasn't directed at me. If it was you REALLY don't know me.

You're teaching us all about you right now, reading your blog is totally unnecessary. Clearly you're your own biggest fan. And that's okay, too.

1: I don't care about your blog or who you are.
2: FW is 40k expansions with GW logo printed on them.
3: FW does put out FAQS and will answer questions about rules clarifications.
4: It seems you do have a rather large Chip on your shoulder about it.

 Jancoran wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I recently played a game with my space marine army accompanied by solomon lok. He was the only forge world unit in my army, i had his stats with me and he doesn't exactly do anything that is out there. one opponent was totally on board and we had a great game.

my second guy of the night started off being a bit weird about it, making comments that forgeworld is outside the game. When i produced the pages that word for word say that most forge world units are meant for standard games he stopped for a while. Latter when he had some bad shooting due to Lok's warlord trait giving my marines fnp while they sat on the deciding objective, he had a mini freakout claiming that Lok's warlord trait is grossly over powered. the game was not fun from there on.

Has anyone else had people react negatively to a forge world unit, even ones that don't seem particularly cheesy (unless someone wants to argue that Lok is OP)

I myself get "Weird" about it. I ban it in my tournaments which solves much of my angst.

It is grossly unfair to ask the already heavily taxed gaming community who want to participate in this game to go out and get all the extra rule books and units it takes to compete and keep up with a guy whose got these units and books.

If you want new players to enter this hobby, the LAST thing you need is to add $1,000 to the cost of even competing. If people like it in casual play, that's a whole other thing. BUT in tournaments, I'm totally unsupportive.

I fail to see how banning Forge World will help with that. People will need to buy a ton of expensive books and models if they want to memorize all current rules and remain competitive regardless of you banning Forge World. Seems like an arbitrary, shallow fix to a massive problem built in to the game by the studio.

The math is simple. The baseline of knowledge you eventually need is whats in your codex and then whats in theirs. those change so that baseline is always moving. And thats is QUITE enough to keep up on for anyone with a normal life and who doesn't live in mom's basement.

And yet you think it's too hard for people to keep track of FW stuff? C'mon, it's not like they're publishing revolutionary stuff. Just require that people bring a copy of the rules and hand it to the opponent beforehand. Learning what a Sicarian or a Fire Raptor Gunship does isn't hard at all and if you have a competitive list you can deal with most FW stuff.

So your fauilure to see how adding an ENTIRE second games worth of material, models and fluff to the equation is fine. But it isnt complicated. If people start showing up with things you dont recognized and have not PLANNED for in your list, its a good bet there will be a problem, RIGHT? Right! And it's really that simple.

This is the internet age. People can look up what these units do and plan for them. Besides, if you seriously can not handle a DKoK list or a Rapier laser destroyer then you have a lot more problems than just not knowing what the FW stuff does in a tournament. Decurion and Eldar are far and away worse than anything you'll find in an Imperial Armor book.

5: Forgeworld IS legal in 40K and in 30K and is, in fact, the only way for some armies (CSM, IG, etc) to actually stand a chance against many of the power armies,

 Vash108 wrote:

4: It seems you do have a rather large Chip on your shoulder about it.

My point stands on its own. So again: chip or not, I'm not going to make people learn and earn all that adfditional stuff. If they want it in the game, put it in the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:


This is the internet age. People can look up what these units do and plan for them. Besides, if you seriously can not handle a DKoK list or a Rapier laser destroyer then you have a lot more problems than just not knowing what the FW stuff does in a tournament. Decurion and Eldar are far and away worse than anything you'll find in an Imperial Armor book.

You're pretending that my argument was that all Forge World is broken. It isn't. Some of it sucks. Using low grade units as examples might SOUND like a good argument in your head but the reality is, it wasn't once you actually typed it out. And I wasn't even suggesting its all broken so you're arguing against a phantom argument I'm not really making.

My argument had very little to do with how UBER or not UBER it is (though the Lynx and similar things are uh...yeah...) It has to do with making the hobby ACCESSIBLE. It already diminishes in that regard daily, on its own, without Forge World. It needs no help. We need new blood in this hobby. we need the old blood to come back. We're not going to do that by subjecting them to an entire other game they have to learn.

So you can pretend like Forge World creates no barriers and so on. But you are pretending.

Forgeworld creates barriers

I too like to live in a make believe world where all I do and say is right.

 Jancoran wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:


This is the internet age. People can look up what these units do and plan for them. Besides, if you seriously can not handle a DKoK list or a Rapier laser destroyer then you have a lot more problems than just not knowing what the FW stuff does in a tournament. Decurion and Eldar are far and away worse than anything you'll find in an Imperial Armor book.

You're pretending that my argument was that all Forge World is broken. It isn't. Some of it sucks. Using low grade units as examples might SOUND like a good argument in your head but the reality is, it wasn't once you actually typed it out. And I wasn't even suggesting its all broken so you're arguing against a phantom argument I'm not really making.

My argument had very little to do with how UBER or not UBER it is (though the Lynx and similar things are uh...yeah...) It has to do with making the hobby ACCESSIBLE. It already diminishes in that regard daily, on its own, without Forge World. It needs no help. We need new blood in this hobby. we need the old blood to come back. We're not going to do that by subjecting them to an entire other game they have to learn.

So you can pretend like Forge World creates no barriers and so on. But you are pretending.

My point was to counter this:

But it isnt complicated. If people start showing up with things you dont recognized and have not PLANNED for in your list, its a good bet there will be a problem, RIGHT? Right! And it's really that simple.

Your statement implies that people adding FW stuff to their army would mess up someone's strategy. If it's a tournament setting I fail to see how adding a Fire Raptor gunship will ruin an Eldar player's strategy if he has contingency plans for aircraft in general. And before you say it, the Fire Raptor Gunship IS a good unit.

And FW creates no more barriers than GW does. You think Decurion, dataslates, short codex cycles, constant power creep and formations are somehow less culpable for making the game impenetrable than a Razorback with a multi-melta on it? Or a Predator with a souped up Autocannon? Or a Leman Russ with a twin-linked Lascannon on it?

In fact, I would argue that you excluding players who love FW units and models does more to harm the accessibility of the hobby to newcomers and old timers than benefits it.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vash108 wrote:

4: It seems you do have a rather large Chip on your shoulder about it.

My point stands on its own. So again: chip or not, I'm not going to make people learn and earn all that adfditional stuff. If they want it in the game, put it in the codex.

You should go over everything in your army anyway before you play for the most part, it takes like what, 5 seconds to explain a Sicaran tank is?

@TheCustomLime: Have an exalt good sir

With the huge number of books, supplements, and dataslates, FW books are going to be the least of your worries. The days when everyone had all the books are long gone, and the extra cost is nothing near what it used to be proportionally, particularly with the vastly increased price of codex books and array of mini-DLC books.

Likewise, with regards to cost, GW's core mainstream prices have caught up with FW book and model pricing in most instances, in some cases even exceeded it. Many current FW books don't really cost any more than a standard Codex does, and those that do usually give you two army lists and stuff for a third faction as well.

With regards to added complexity, again, with the sheer number of codex books, supplements, formations, "campaigns", DLC dataslates, etc, FW is the least of one's worries.

And when GW plastic models are now coming out at prices exceeding that of their FW counterparts (looking at you AdMech Magos Dominus), the pricing issue is dead.

More to the point, quite simply, when core GW stuff is far and away more powerful than anything FW offers, the balance issue is out the window.

Plenty of events run FW stuff without issue, FW stuff hardly dominates anything at them, and all this talk of banning FW because it's unfair to ask people to be familiar with the rules is nothing but lame holdover hate from the mindset of older editions where there was a meaningful gap in cost.

 Jancoran wrote:
My point stands on its own. So again: chip or not, I'm not going to make people learn and earn all that adfditional stuff. If they want it in the game, put it in the codex.

If you don't think people should have to learn my FW rules then why should I have to learn your codex rules? You can't use the "it's a complicated game" excuse and then selectively allow the stuff that you personally want to use and benefit from. If FW rules are banned then a lot of codex rules should also be banned, for the sake of simplifying the game. In fact, if you have a tournament where anything besides a single naked captain and two naked 5-man tactical squads is allowed then you are already accepting that the game will be complicated and have no excuse for banning FW rules.

Not that "it's so complicated" is a good argument in the first place, of course. Any sensible community/tournament/whatever requires each player to bring all of the rules for their army. There's no barrier to entry for the opponent because they can just read your rules at the beginning of the game.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Forgeworld creates barriers

I too like to live in a make believe world where all I do and say is right.

/smh

Anywho. Whatevs


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:


Your statement implies that people adding FW stuff to their army would mess up someone's strategy. If it's a tournament setting I fail to see how adding a Fire Raptor gunship will ruin an Eldar player's strategy if he has contingency plans for aircraft in general. And before you say it, the Fire Raptor Gunship IS a good unit.

And FW creates no more barriers than GW does. You think Decurion, dataslates, short codex cycles, constant power creep and formations are somehow less culpable for making the game impenetrable than a Razorback with a multi-melta on it? Or a Predator with a souped up Autocannon? Or a Leman Russ with a twin-linked Lascannon on it?

In fact, I would argue that you excluding players who love FW units and models does more to harm the accessibility of the hobby to newcomers and old timers than benefits it.

Here again you argue against a point I did not make. And my statement doesn't IN FACT imply anything. I flat out said what I meant which is that you shouldn't have to plan for an ENTIRE NEW LAYER of the game nor afford it when AS HAS BEEN SAID AND AGREED the game is going fast as it is. And yes, obviously, Fire Raptors are good. Duh.

Comparing what GW and Forge World do to create barriers is a fools errand and ALSO distracts from the point. Who said this was a comparison? Who said this was PURELY about power levels (lynx)? My central point wasn't that. You act like my central point is that, when Ive told you it isn't. Maybe there's a third person here and I cant see their posts?

The base game is the base game. So anything in a codex or the main rulebook is that game. Forge World is entirely unnecessary because as has been said, there's this thing called a codex. So if you want this in your games, put it in the codex. It's not that hard to add a couple pages. If they arent willing to do that, then its not core to the game, even IF they say you can use those units in the game. They're a model company. They sell stuff. Thats what they do. In the case of Forge World they want to charge you the moon to have it. So of COURSE they are going to whore out any semblance of economic balance amongst players for the greater profits it will bring; and the munchkins who have the money will all indulge.

That isn't to say no one buys it for its aesthetic. So don't start in on that. Clearly many do collect for both Warhammer 40K and the Forge World add ons. Some people just love the model and for them, the model is the issue. Good. That is why I don't feel anything about casual games... as has been said. Play casual games with all the expensive tricked out toys you and your friends will actually enjoy playing with. Do it. You can call me bad names all you like for not joining you I guess but itsnot like Im telling people they are bd people for liking them. This isn't about that either (though there definitely is a brand of player so addicted to winning and so filled with loathing for losing that they would do anything and pay anything to buy those wins).

And to be clear... I am NOT a person who cannot make these purchases. Rest assured that I can afford whatever model I choose. I can afford every book and every model, at will. So this isn't about ME or my unwillingnss to pay. This isnt sour grapes that I cant keep up. I can keep up better than most. I'm not some salty bastard who hates GW, so this isnt about some crusade against GW. I love their toys and I love playing it. Three times a week or so! So this is strictly about my feelings on growing the hobby and the grateful praise and feedback I get from returning players and the new ones for not allowing this stuff in tournaments.

As a T.O. (I've run four events, three of them ITC in the last 3 months) I'm in charge of the overall experience for the majority, not pandering to a vocal minority who have gone out and spent $1,000 to buy wins or indulge their inner munchkin. Once you're rolling for Night Fight, you're going to have fun (if that's the type of person you are) even if i made you leave your Fire Raptor behind. You'll get on forums and lobby and so on but the bottom line is, you'll have fun with or without the Titan unless you're just unpleasant. The guy across from you might NOT have as much fun WITH that Lynx (or whatever example you want). and that's why I oppose it in tournaments.

Whil I can't stop you from bringing broken things from within the codex, I can reduce the number of available broken things. THAT I can do. I can say 0-1 Supr Heavies too, as the ITC does. Why do we do that? You know why.

 Jancoran wrote:
The base game is the base game. So anything in a codex or the main rulebook is that game.

This is a house rule that you have invented. Please do not pretend that your house rules have anything to do with the game as published by GW.

Forge World is entirely unnecessary because as has been said, there's this thing called a codex.

Codex rules are entirely unnecessary because as has been said, there's this thing called a Forge World book.

As a T.O. (I've run four events, three of them ITC in the last 3 months) I'm in charge of the overall experience for the majority, not pandering to a vocal minority who have gone out and spent $1,000 to buy wins or indulge their inner munchkin.

So why do you allow codex rules? After all, it's not like "spend $1000 to buy wins" is something that only happens with FW rules.

The guy across from you might NOT have as much fun WITH that Lynx (or whatever example you want). and that's why I oppose it in tournaments.

And the guy across from you might NOT have as much fun WITH that tactical squad (or whatever example you want). Therefore ban codex rules.

Buy wins?
Isnt that buying a new Eldar or Tau army?

 Jancoran wrote:


The base game is the base game. So anything in a codex or the main rulebook is that game.

There is no base game. This is a mental construct of a select part of the playerbase, and GW will be the first ones to tell you this.

As far as the rules of 7th edition are concerned, 40K does not have a "base game".

Forge World is entirely unnecessary because as has been said, there's this thing called a codex.

Which doesn't cover the entire breadth of the 40k universe or GW's product line, and is not intended to, hence why we also have dataslates, supplements, etc.

So if you want this in your games, put it in the codex. It's not that hard to add a couple pages. If they arent willing to do that, then its not core to the game, even IF they say you can use those units in the game. They're a model company. They sell stuff. Thats what they do. In the case of Forge World they want to charge you the moon to have it.

I'm not sure if you've been paying attention recently, but have you looked at GW's prices of late?

GW's plastic characters cost as much or more than FW's equivalents. Basic codex books are now in the same price range as many Imperial Armour books (and the expensive ones give you two armies typically and usually stuff for a third). Those relatively new plastic Tempestus Scions or the relatively old plastic Dire Avengers? Same price per model as a squad of Death Korps Grenadiers.

This is to say nothing of $5.99 dataslates for model rules & formations, $74 "war zone" books. $150 mega-models, etc. Hell, the new Bloodthirster costs twice what the old one did.

Price, quite simply, is no longer a leg to stand on.

So of COURSE they are going to whore out any semblance of economic balance amongst players for the greater profits it will bring; and the munchkins who have the money will all indulge.

We already have massively different costs to build different armies even without FW, and again, FW costs are increasingly no higher than GW's offerings.

As a T.O. (I've run four events, three of them ITC in the last 3 months) I'm in charge of the overall experience for the majority, not pandering to a vocal minority who have gone out and spent $1,000 to buy wins or indulge their inner munchkin. Once you're rolling for Night Fight, you're going to have fun (if that's the type of person you are) even if i made you leave your Fire Raptor behind. You'll get on forums and lobby and so on but the bottom line is, you'll have fun with or without the Titan unless you're just unpleasant. The guy across from you might NOT have as much fun WITH that Lynx (or whatever example you want). and that's why I oppose it in tournaments.

Have you looked at tournament results where FW was allowed? If you look at the Nova Open, out of the top 16 armies, IIRC only 4 had any FW units at all, a Malanthrope, Loth, a Fire Raptor, and a Remora Drone Fighter, none of which are outrageously broken, particularly relative to Codex alternatives.


Nobody has problems wing *some* restrictions for the most part. Most people aren't terribly butthurt about the ITC's superheavy restrictions for example. If you want to say "No Lynxes", most people won't be terribly offended. It's when you lump things like Decimators, DKoK armies, Leman Russ Annihilators, Hazard Suits, Barracuda fighters, Grot Tanks, Mega Dreds, Sonic Dreads, Nightwing Fighters, etc into the same pot in the same way, that's what irks people.

Do you also ban dataslates, supplements, campaign books, etc? They're not "codex" books either, and are additional costs as well.

Wait he thinks the Leman Russ Annihilator is OP? The Leman Russ with a single twin linked Lascannon which struggles to do diddly squat against anything except the occasional IC whom just happened to be stupid enough to stand alone in front of it?

Bloody hell man, get a sense of perspective....

 Jancoran wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Forgeworld creates barriers

I too like to live in a make believe world where all I do and say is right.

/smh

Anywho. Whatevs


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:


Your statement implies that people adding FW stuff to their army would mess up someone's strategy. If it's a tournament setting I fail to see how adding a Fire Raptor gunship will ruin an Eldar player's strategy if he has contingency plans for aircraft in general. And before you say it, the Fire Raptor Gunship IS a good unit.

And FW creates no more barriers than GW does. You think Decurion, dataslates, short codex cycles, constant power creep and formations are somehow less culpable for making the game impenetrable than a Razorback with a multi-melta on it? Or a Predator with a souped up Autocannon? Or a Leman Russ with a twin-linked Lascannon on it?

In fact, I would argue that you excluding players who love FW units and models does more to harm the accessibility of the hobby to newcomers and old timers than benefits it.

Here again you argue against a point I did not make. And my statement doesn't IN FACT imply anything. I flat out said what I meant which is that you shouldn't have to plan for an ENTIRE NEW LAYER of the game nor afford it when AS HAS BEEN SAID AND AGREED the game is going fast as it is. And yes, obviously, Fire Raptors are good. Duh.

And I responded to that. There is little in a IA book that you can't deal with if you are prepared to face the respective army it belongs to.

Comparing what GW and Forge World do to create barriers is a fools errand and ALSO distracts from the point. Who said this was a comparison? Who said this was PURELY about power levels (lynx)? My central point wasn't that. You act like my central point is that, when Ive told you it isn't. Maybe there's a third person here and I cant see their posts?

I'm not allowed to argue against all of your points if they aren't what you think is the main one? Okay.

The base game is the base game. So anything in a codex or the main rulebook is that game. Forge World is entirely unnecessary because as has been said, there's this thing called a codex. So if you want this in your games, put it in the codex. It's not that hard to add a couple pages. If they arent willing to do that, then its not core to the game, even IF they say you can use those units in the game. They're a model company. They sell stuff. Thats what they do. In the case of Forge World they want to charge you the moon to have it. So of COURSE they are going to whore out any semblance of economic balance amongst players for the greater profits it will bring; and the munchkins who have the money will all indulge.

What is so superior about the codex? Do you just like the font better or something? Both books are equally valid sources of rules and have been for years. Besides, if your argument is that "Not in the Codex, not a part of the 'main game' (Whatever the hell that means)" then I presume fortifications, dataslates, and supplements are also banned. After all, it's not hard to add a couple of pages. If they aren't willing to do that, then it's not core to the game.

That isn't to say no one buys it for its aesthetic. So don't start in on that. Clearly many do collect for both Warhammer 40K and the Forge World add ons. Some people just love the model and for them, the model is the issue. Good. That is why I don't feel anything about casual games... as has been said. Play casual games with all the expensive tricked out toys you and your friends will actually enjoy playing with. Do it. You can call me bad names all you like for not joining you I guess but itsnot like Im telling people they are bd people for liking them. This isn't about that either (though there definitely is a brand of player so addicted to winning and so filled with loathing for losing that they would do anything and pay anything to buy those wins).

I never called you anything. And you can make that argument for things like Riptides and Wraithknights too.

And to be clear... I am NOT a person who cannot make these purchases. Rest assured that I can afford whatever model I choose. I can afford every book and every model, at will. So this isn't about ME or my unwillingnss to pay. This isnt sour grapes that I cant keep up. I can keep up better than most. I'm not some salty bastard who hates GW, so this isnt about some crusade against GW. I love their toys and I love playing it. Three times a week or so! So this is strictly about my feelings on growing the hobby and the grateful praise and feedback I get from returning players and the new ones for not allowing this stuff in tournaments.

You're just perpetrating misinformation. I would hardly call that admirable.

As a T.O. (I've run four events, three of them ITC in the last 3 months) I'm in charge of the overall experience for the majority, not pandering to a vocal minority who have gone out and spent $1,000 to buy wins or indulge their inner munchkin. Once you're rolling for Night Fight, you're going to have fun (if that's the type of person you are) even if i made you leave your Fire Raptor behind. You'll get on forums and lobby and so on but the bottom line is, you'll have fun with or without the Titan unless you're just unpleasant. The guy across from you might NOT have as much fun WITH that Lynx (or whatever example you want). and that's why I oppose it in tournaments.

Now wait a cotton picking moment. ITC isn't in a Codex! It's not part of the main game! It should be banned! How could people keep up with those rules? If they wanted to add tournament rules they could've added two pages to the BRB but they didn't so it's not a part of the core game.

Also, just ban non-Codex LoW in general. That'll solve your problems right there.

Whil I can't stop you from bringing broken things from within the codex, I can reduce the number of available broken things. THAT I can do. I can say 0-1 Supr Heavies too, as the ITC does. Why do we do that? You know why.

What, from like 100 to 99? Banning FW is like burning down a house to deal with a mold problem.

But you know what Janc? I don't think I can convince you that FW isn't broken and that you are chasing after ghosts. I think the problems you have with the British resin crack dealers go deeper than just balance or availability issues. So, ban away Mr. J. But you're missing out on some really cool models and rules.

When I run my private events, to make things simpler on my friends, I insist we all only play Chaos Space Marines with no supplements or anything outside of the main codex.

Its one way to make them competitive .

nareik wrote:
When I run my private events, to make things simpler on my friends, I insist we all only play Chaos Space Marines with no supplements or anything outside of the main codex.

Its one way to make them competitive .

Good call. After all, if this thread has taught us anything, it's that the more arbitrary restrictions you impose on a gaming community the more inclusive it is.

 chalkobob wrote:

nareik wrote:
When I run my private events, to make things simpler on my friends, I insist we all only play Chaos Space Marines with no supplements or anything outside of the main codex.

Its one way to make them competitive .

Good call. After all, if this thread has taught us anything, it's that the more arbitrary restrictions you impose on a gaming community the more inclusive it is.

It makes me appreciative that I don't play in Arkaine's or Janc's meta. I love my HH Ultras too much.

To keep the "base game" argument flowing, let's ban all codeci. After all, the 3rd edition rulebook included army lists for all armies that had models at the time. So feth codices and feth pay-to-win Tau.

Also this is not arbitrary at all. Because I say so, and I have a blog*.

*I actually don't.

 Jancoran wrote:

As a T.O. (I've run four events, three of them ITC in the last 3 months) I'm in charge of the overall experience for the majority, not pandering to a vocal minority who have gone out and spent $1,000 to buy wins or indulge their inner munchkin. Once you're rolling for Night Fight, you're going to have fun (if that's the type of person you are) even if i made you leave your Fire Raptor behind. You'll get on forums and lobby and so on but the bottom line is, you'll have fun with or without the Titan unless you're just unpleasant. The guy across from you might NOT have as much fun WITH that Lynx (or whatever example you want). and that's why I oppose it in tournaments.

Whil I can't stop you from bringing broken things from within the codex, I can reduce the number of available broken things. THAT I can do. I can say 0-1 Supr Heavies too, as the ITC does. Why do we do that? You know why.

Because taking a Forgeworld unit or army makes you a WAAC munchkin... seriously?

Going by all logic... why not just ban all the Codexes that other people haven't read into... I mean... People can just ask to see the rules of these units, it's not like people don't have the FW books with them when they play...

I wonder if heavy gun drones are considered "broken"? I mean, they are, but in a different sense.

Aside from maybe the new Phantom Titan rules, I can't think of any forge world units/army lists that are at all OP. Deredeo and Contemptor-Mortis Dreads are strong but not game breaking in the slightest. Most FW IG tanks are mediocre at best. Elysians used to be borderline OP in 5/6th ed. due to Vendetta spam but are nowhere near as powerful as they used to be. Oh, and like I said in the other thread, there's also Tyrant's Legion which was always weak but is now possibly the worst army in the entire game (definitely sub-CSM.) IMHO, most of what FW produces is only mediocre at best. It's mainly for enthusiasts who are after cool and highly detailed models at a premium price.

Nothing wrong with Forge World.

If Eldar and NewTau are allowed in tournaments, there is zero reason to ban Forge World.

Make people bring the book they need for their army to share with the opponent.

No problem. Play the fething game and shut the feth up.

nudibranch wrote:
Aside from maybe the new Phantom Titan rules, I can't think of any forge world units/army lists that are at all OP. Deredeo and Contemptor-Mortis Dreads are strong but not game breaking in the slightest. Most FW IG tanks are mediocre at best. Elysians used to be borderline OP in 5/6th ed. due to Vendetta spam but are nowhere near as powerful as they used to be. Oh, and like I said in the other thread, there's also Tyrant's Legion which was always weak but is now possibly the worst army in the entire game (definitely sub-CSM.) IMHO, most of what FW produces is only mediocre at best. It's mainly for enthusiasts who are after cool and highly detailed models at a premium price.

Mediocre compared to the arms race of 7th.

Legion rules trounce anything GW comes up with and I now use them over my codex.

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

As a T.O. (I've run four events, three of them ITC in the last 3 months) I'm in charge of the overall experience for the majority, not pandering to a vocal minority who have gone out and spent $1,000 to buy wins or indulge their inner munchkin. Once you're rolling for Night Fight, you're going to have fun (if that's the type of person you are) even if i made you leave your Fire Raptor behind. You'll get on forums and lobby and so on but the bottom line is, you'll have fun with or without the Titan unless you're just unpleasant. The guy across from you might NOT have as much fun WITH that Lynx (or whatever example you want). and that's why I oppose it in tournaments.

Whil I can't stop you from bringing broken things from within the codex, I can reduce the number of available broken things. THAT I can do. I can say 0-1 Supr Heavies too, as the ITC does. Why do we do that? You know why.

Because taking a Forgeworld unit or army makes you a WAAC munchkin... seriously?

Going by all logic... why not just ban all the Codexes that other people haven't read into... I mean... People can just ask to see the rules of these units, it's not like people don't have the FW books with them when they play...

Don't forget those pesky data slates! They aren't a part of the codex's either!

 Jancoran wrote:
Whil I can't stop you from bringing broken things from within the codex,

I can say 0-1 Supr Heavies too, as the ITC does.

That second statement directly contradicts the first. Clearly you are comfortable with restricting individual choices from specific codexes, but in the one instance for Forge World publications, you choose not to.

Didn't the escalation rulebook have FW super heavies in it and profiles for them?