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Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread yet, so this may have been covered.

I think the thing that keeps Forgeworld so unwelcome is the fact that it isn't available at your FLGS. If every store stocked it as standard, the stigma would slowly fade. But since it's mail order only, it's easy to keep it at arm's length.

 docdoom77 wrote:
Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread yet, so this may have been covered.

I think the thing that keeps Forgeworld so unwelcome is the fact that it isn't available at your FLGS. If every store stocked it as standard, the stigma would slowly fade. But since it's mail order only, it's easy to keep it at arm's length.

That's the big thing, and why most local events don't allow it, as it doesn't make the store owners who are putting on the event any money. Big tournaments that aren't held at stores typically allow FW.

 docdoom77 wrote:
Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread yet, so this may have been covered.

I think the thing that keeps Forgeworld so unwelcome is the fact that it isn't available at your FLGS. If every store stocked it as standard, the stigma would slowly fade. But since it's mail order only, it's easy to keep it at arm's length.

that's entirely reasonable, this I can understand, if its hard to get the models then I get that some may not like it, as they know nothing about it, the books are still available however.

 Formosa wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread yet, so this may have been covered.

I think the thing that keeps Forgeworld so unwelcome is the fact that it isn't available at your FLGS. If every store stocked it as standard, the stigma would slowly fade. But since it's mail order only, it's easy to keep it at arm's length.

that's entirely reasonable, this I can understand, if its hard to get the models then I get that some may not like it, as they know nothing about it, the books are still available however.

The big problem with this is that it applies equally well to pretty much the entire Sisters of Battle line, and other GW web exclusive stuff.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The big problem with this is that it applies equally well to pretty much the entire Sisters of Battle line, and other GW web exclusive stuff.

Which can still receive some glares depending on how bad it is. Wouldn't want to walk to my car alone at night after playing with a Skyhammer Annihilation force. It's worse for the Limited Edition stuff... bring a Plasma Obliterator and you'll instantly get labelled a TFG. I have three! But I only get to use them in apocalypse battles.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread yet, so this may have been covered.

I think the thing that keeps Forgeworld so unwelcome is the fact that it isn't available at your FLGS. If every store stocked it as standard, the stigma would slowly fade. But since it's mail order only, it's easy to keep it at arm's length.

that's entirely reasonable, this I can understand, if its hard to get the models then I get that some may not like it, as they know nothing about it, the books are still available however.

The big problem with this is that it applies equally well to pretty much the entire Sisters of Battle line, and other GW web exclusive stuff.

I understand it, I don't agree with it though, the books are easily downloaded if you really want them, and in the world of kindles, ipads etc it is easy to scan your codex and use it on your device, so not having access to the rules for any of the books is total nonsense, the models however I can understand if they are not available in the local FLGS, people may not want to play with them.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The big problem with this is that it applies equally well to pretty much the entire Sisters of Battle line, and other GW web exclusive stuff.

Which can still receive some glares depending on how bad it is. Wouldn't want to walk to my car alone at night after playing with a Skyhammer Annihilation force.

Worried about a metal dreadnought sock?

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The big problem with this is that it applies equally well to pretty much the entire Sisters of Battle line, and other GW web exclusive stuff.

Which can still receive some glares depending on how bad it is. Wouldn't want to walk to my car alone at night after playing with a Skyhammer Annihilation force.

Worried about a metal dreadnought sock?

haha much needed levity brought to this thread

 Jancoran wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What's the real point of banning FW when scatterbikes exist?

Because reading rules before a game is too confusing for new players.

I hope someone gets that reference.

But let me turn the tables: since you're so convinced that it "doesnt matter" then why bring it? If you can play just as well without it then why are you DEMANDING it be allowed? If what you SAY is true then you can certainly afford NOT to bring it. Its a tournament so you clearly brought your army to win. CLEARLY you thought this combination gave you the best chance... Yet you want me to accept that it makes no difference? Lol. Is that the least honest thing you've ever heard of or what?

I brought my FW to WIN? To pull out some obscure and esoteric combination of rules that perplex my opponent, puts him completely off his game and allow me to smash his filthy casual "standard-GW" army while laughing at his financial inferiority as I snort lines of resin dust? No, I brought my ForgeWorld rules because my army, which I've been building for several years, is now only functional through ForgeWorld rules. Because 7th Edition changed the allies matrix and made Renegade Guard (previously IG/CSM, now Renegades&Heretics) close to unplayable, but I love the aesthetics, fluff and feel of the army? Just like with Death Korps people who show up to tournaments: their goal isn't to win, as that's unrealistic, but to have fun, socialize and show off an army they've put a lot of effort into building and painting.

 Jancoran wrote:

So there are numerous good reasons to simply not inflict that on the opponent. I showed up at a tournament last Saturday and faced... an almost entire army of Forge World Tyranids. I had NO idea what they could do. We had to spend a good fifteen minutes going through all the units and part of that was "okay now wait that was this unit, so what was this one again?" Its a TIMED event! And we just shot fifteen minutes out the door so that I could readjust my thinking on ALL of it.

Would you know what a War Convocation could do? It's a White Dwarf formation which many people have never faced, yet it's incredibly, incredibly powerful and (imo) you need a lot of knowledge about its tricks to be able to beat it. If you need 15 minutes to go through a few Tyranid rules (there aren't THAT many FW 'nids and they're not very complicated) you might be a slow learner. In today's 40k with new dataslates, formations, campaign exclusive relics etc. etc. coming out every week, you gotta get used to either studying everything available in the game before attending a tournament or be quick at understanding rules when your opponent explains them to you.

I have no doubt that metas that ban ForgeWorld can be popular, but I doubt it's because of the ForgeWorld ban alone (and if it is, it's from players having an outdated and misinformed opinion about ForgeWorld, which I suppose is understandable if you're coming back from an older edition when FW was not a part of standard 40k). The Paralympic Games are popular too.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Well you apparently completely skipped the part where I suggested that you should have tourneys where FW and all the "extra" stuff is allowed, but also keep having your house-ruled tournaments for the people that like them.

That is if your meta has people that like FW (I'm sure there are at least a couple).

I didnt skip it. Who has time to do that? I can do one or the other. Im not going to run TWO tournies a month. Someoe else can. Im fine with that.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The big problem with this is that it applies equally well to pretty much the entire Sisters of Battle line, and other GW web exclusive stuff.

Which can still receive some glares depending on how bad it is. Wouldn't want to walk to my car alone at night after playing with a Skyhammer Annihilation force. It's worse for the Limited Edition stuff... bring a Plasma Obliterator and you'll instantly get labelled a TFG. I have three! But I only get to use them in apocalypse battles.

The Skyhammer I can understand because it's just plain broken, no matter where it comes from (though being a "pay to win" web bundle didn't help obviously), but the plasma Obliterator? I mean, yeah it was a limited run, but its rules are thoroughly unimpressive, especially for an $85 piece of terrain, it's an AV14 box with a 7" S7 blast and a nasty Gets Hot rule, for the price of a Land Raider, hardly something to get labelled a TFG for, that's absurd.

 Formosa wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread yet, so this may have been covered.

I think the thing that keeps Forgeworld so unwelcome is the fact that it isn't available at your FLGS. If every store stocked it as standard, the stigma would slowly fade. But since it's mail order only, it's easy to keep it at arm's length.

that's entirely reasonable, this I can understand, if its hard to get the models then I get that some may not like it, as they know nothing about it, the books are still available however.

The big problem with this is that it applies equally well to pretty much the entire Sisters of Battle line, and other GW web exclusive stuff.

I understand it, I don't agree with it though, the books are easily downloaded if you really want them, and in the world of kindles, ipads etc it is easy to scan your codex and use it on your device, so not having access to the rules for any of the books is total nonsense, the models however I can understand if they are not available in the local FLGS, people may not want to play with them.

Right, I was just saying that it applied to things like Sisters of Battle too, which IIRC, are entirely web-exclusive mail order models, and people just don't seem to treat them the same way.

GrafWattenburg wrote:

Would you know what a War Convocation could do? It's a White Dwarf formation which many people have never faced, yet it's incredibly, incredibly powerful and (imo) you need a lot of knowledge about its tricks to be able to beat it. .

First, I wasnt excuing the Convocation. Second, in our torunaments, we allow two detchments, three if one is a CAD, which as I SAID... stops the most broken issues from showing up. Banning Forge world isnt the extent of the work we do to stop broken things or unwanted things.

So the War Convocation and all the examples like it are also not awesome. And we have taken the step to disallow those. But you're talking about power...again. And I...again... reiterate that this isnt the only issue with Forge World. It isn't even THE issue. Because it takes ll of four seconds to come up with an example of something in forge World that isn't AS broken as X, Y, and Z. I get it. Ive sid I get it. So why are we STILL on that?

 Jancoran wrote:

GrafWattenburg wrote:

Would you know what a War Convocation could do? It's a White Dwarf formation which many people have never faced, yet it's incredibly, incredibly powerful and (imo) you need a lot of knowledge about its tricks to be able to beat it. .

First, I wasnt excuing the Convocation. Second, in our torunaments, we allow two detchments, three if one is a CAD, which as I SAID... stops the most broken issues from showing up. Banning Forge world isnt the extent of the work we do to stop broken things.

To be fair, if you're allowing more than one detachment, you can pretty much get away with the most abusive aspects of the game, you don't need 5 or 6 detachments to break it, 2 will do just find in most instances, particularly exploiting allies abilities, 3 tops. Most armies wouldn't have the points for many more detachments than two or three detachments anyways, especially if they want to take full advantage of their bonuses, unless you're getting into things like the Decurion where it's a detachment composed of other detachments and how do you sort out what at that point?

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The big problem with this is that it applies equally well to pretty much the entire Sisters of Battle line, and other GW web exclusive stuff.

Which can still receive some glares depending on how bad it is. Wouldn't want to walk to my car alone at night after playing with a Skyhammer Annihilation force. It's worse for the Limited Edition stuff... bring a Plasma Obliterator and you'll instantly get labelled a TFG. I have three! But I only get to use them in apocalypse battles.

The Skyhammer I can understand because it's just plain broken, no matter where it comes from (though being a "pay to win" web bundle didn't help obviously), but the plasma Obliterator? I mean, yeah it was a limited run, but its rules are thoroughly unimpressive, especially for an $85 piece of terrain, it's an AV14 box with a 7" S7 blast and a nasty Gets Hot rule, for the price of a Land Raider, hardly something to get labelled a TFG for, that's absurd.

 Formosa wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread yet, so this may have been covered.

I think the thing that keeps Forgeworld so unwelcome is the fact that it isn't available at your FLGS. If every store stocked it as standard, the stigma would slowly fade. But since it's mail order only, it's easy to keep it at arm's length.

that's entirely reasonable, this I can understand, if its hard to get the models then I get that some may not like it, as they know nothing about it, the books are still available however.

The big problem with this is that it applies equally well to pretty much the entire Sisters of Battle line, and other GW web exclusive stuff.

I understand it, I don't agree with it though, the books are easily downloaded if you really want them, and in the world of kindles, ipads etc it is easy to scan your codex and use it on your device, so not having access to the rules for any of the books is total nonsense, the models however I can understand if they are not available in the local FLGS, people may not want to play with them.

Right, I was just saying that it applied to things like Sisters of Battle too, which IIRC, are entirely web-exclusive mail order models, and people just don't seem to treat them the same way.

ah right, sorry for the misunderstanding.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

GrafWattenburg wrote:

Would you know what a War Convocation could do? It's a White Dwarf formation which many people have never faced, yet it's incredibly, incredibly powerful and (imo) you need a lot of knowledge about its tricks to be able to beat it. .

First, I wasnt excuing the Convocation. Second, in our torunaments, we allow two detchments, three if one is a CAD, which as I SAID... stops the most broken issues from showing up. Banning Forge world isnt the extent of the work we do to stop broken things.

To be fair, if you're allowing more than one detachment, you can pretty much get away with the most abusive aspects of the game, you don't need 5 or 6 detachments to break it, 2 will do just find in most instances, particularly exploiting allies abilities, 3 tops. Most armies wouldn't have the points for many more detachments than two or three detachments anyways, especially if they want to take full advantage of their bonuses, unless you're getting into things like the Decurion where it's a detachment composed of other detachments and how do you sort out what at that point?

TWO Skyhammer Annihilation Forces. Bwahahahaha!

The argument against allowing Forge World is fundamentally an argument from ignorance. "I don't know what it does, therefore it must be OP and should be banned". The solution is simple: require everyone to bring a copy of the rules that cover all of the models in their army. In most cases, this is a standard GW codex/supplement/campaign book. It might also be an Imperial Armour book, pdf dataslate, or even a White Dwarf article. In every tournament that I have attended (under ITC rules), if you did not follow this rule in addition to bringing a copy of the rules and an army list for your opponent, you were automatically disqualified. There is a reason I managed to acquire a pdf version of the Haemonculus Covens supplement for my upcoming Dark Eldar army in addition to the version I acquired through iTunes; I wanted to be able to have a physical copy of the rules for the formations in that supplement (now electronic-only) as a courtesy for my opponent. If you have a question about the rules for a model, ask your opponent to see the rules for that model.

Last time I checked, we were living in the information age. I you don't know what a unit does or how a faction or army plays, type it into a search engine of your choice and find out. I find 1d4chan useful as a general guide (just don't take it's tactical advice seriously or read it at work). Saying that units, factions, or armies should be banned because the majority of players are unfamiliar with their rules is an ignorant argument born out of laziness.

With the exception of true titans, very little that Forge World puts out is any more overpowered than units in standard codexes. It's rather telling that out of all the things that the ITC restricts, only a few specific Forge World units are banned and the vast majority of units and armies are allowed.

Eight, EIGHT Skyhammers! A-A-AH!


There needs to be a 28mm of this guy so i can proxy him as NL Servatar.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

With the exception of true titans, very little that Forge World puts out is any more overpowered than units in standard codexes. It's rather telling that out of all the things that the ITC restricts, only a few specific Forge World units are banned and the vast majority of units and armies are allowed.

Indeed, and even with the Titan units, FW just casts the resin, the rules for them and their inclusion in non-apoc games are all written by GW now (save for the Warlord, which is too big for any sort of tournament anyway). You can ban forgeworld rules entirely and still bring Titans

They wont be for long, GW is releasing plastic 30k figs & the rulebook in this boxed edition is compatible with FW HH books! (30 marines, 5 termies, 1 dread, 1 praetorian, & 1 chapy plus rulebook, dice, templatres, etc....)

Is there a 30k forum here yet?

In fact, it's even the reverse: a lot of stuff from FW aren't uptaded yet, and so cost more.
For example: in the armoured battle group I play, I have to pay 160 pts for a leman russ eradicator...
I agree with TheNewBlood, the issue is ignorance and laziness.
Laziness from the player who don't try to know Forge World, and laziness from the FW players who don't provide a copy for their opponents.

Im still waiting for anyone to name a broken FW unit to be fair, I cant think of even one.... oh actually unsurprisingly its an elder unit, the phantom, anymore?

 Formosa wrote:
Im still waiting for anyone to name a broken FW unit to be fair, I cant think of even one.... oh actually unsurprisingly its an elder unit, the phantom, anymore?

You're forgetting the Revenant, Warhound, Reaver, and Taunar as well.

I've read through this thread in all its glory, and the best example Arkaine and Jancoran can come up with is...the Dreadclaw Assault Pod!

The first generation of the R'varna was pretty broken, but that got put down to riptie levels pretty quickly. The tau'nar is also sort of pbroken, but it'll proobleby end up the same way (rules aren't in book yet, so it will get before it's initial release, I'm sure).

Of the tau units currently available.

Manta: massively overpriced, it's pretty much just a set piece. Also un-manageably huge.
Tigershark: Expensive, nad relitvly mediocre.
Tigershark AX-1-0: Expensive, and pretty well balanced
R'varna*: Riptide relitive power/cost level
Y'vahra*: Suprising blaneced for a riptide varient, although still quite strong
Tetras: fun, cheap, balenced.
Remoras: fun relitivly cheap, balenced.
O'R'alai: Powerful, but pays for it.
XV9: fun, tough, expensive
Pirahna TX-42: Cool, but overpriced.
Drone turret: A little overpiced, IMO
Heavy gun drones: Bad, just bad all around.
Sensor tower: used to be much better, sort of mediocre now.
Barracuda: strong, fun, pays for it.

*not in a book yet

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Im still waiting for anyone to name a broken FW unit to be fair, I cant think of even one.... oh actually unsurprisingly its an elder unit, the phantom, anymore?

You're forgetting the Revenant, Warhound, Reaver, and Taunar as well.

I've read through this thread in all its glory, and the best example Arkaine and Jancoran can come up with is...the Dreadclaw Assault Pod!

But we have straight from GW rule books with titan rules so they are kosher. /s

Alright, this is getting nowhere. Neither of these... gentlemen are going to accede to any kind of logic. They have no reason to really. You have to remember:

They created their own little community. They raised it up from nothing and BUILT INTO the entire community their own personal bias. It was stated before, they or someone else who agrees with them laid down the fallacies by which their community operates. They basically indoctrinated an entire group of new players, who by that very definition would have no idea what they were voting for or against, to their specific idea of how things should be. They are NOT going to change their minds regardless of how bad their thinking on the subject is.

Now, to address a couple of issues succinctly.

1. To say it "adds an extra financial layer" is a fallacy. Why? Because you are either assuming or insinuating, via your arguement, a player MUST buy GW's GW products first and only then may they buy GW's FW products. Realistically, should a person want to spend an extra 10 or 15 percent on GW's FW line you are now imposing an exclusionary bias which forces players to purchase what they are told they are allowed rather than access to the entire range.

2. One or both of these gentlemen have claimed adding FW is adding " a new game" which has already been countered as ridiculous. New models and armies are added but the core mechanics require no relearning.

3. The gentleman whose tournament experience soured him is revealed as a douchebag. He had ONE bad tactical error during the game? The guy was the nicest guy? HE WON?!?! And he still came away acting like a child who got tabled turn 2....?

You're not going to win against arguements which are basically,"I don't care because I've already crafted my local scene to be what I wanted as opposed to reality and/or what is fair."

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Im still waiting for anyone to name a broken FW unit to be fair, I cant think of even one.... oh actually unsurprisingly its an elder unit, the phantom, anymore?

You're forgetting the Revenant, Warhound, Reaver, and Taunar as well.

I've read through this thread in all its glory, and the best example Arkaine and Jancoran can come up with is...the Dreadclaw Assault Pod!

haha yeah, but their titans, its kinda the point of them isn't it lol.

I freely admit I don't play people who use super heavies, unless I have one of my own of course, we simply don't allow them in a pick up game so its all pre arranged, same with primarchs, same with gargantuans, but im not trying to veil the decision in some weird anti super heavy etc. way, its just how we like to play

 Formosa wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Im still waiting for anyone to name a broken FW unit to be fair, I cant think of even one.... oh actually unsurprisingly its an elder unit, the phantom, anymore?

You're forgetting the Revenant, Warhound, Reaver, and Taunar as well.

I've read through this thread in all its glory, and the best example Arkaine and Jancoran can come up with is...the Dreadclaw Assault Pod!

haha yeah, but their titans, its kinda the point of them isn't it lol.

I freely admit I don't play people who use super heavies, unless I have one of my own of course, we simply don't allow them in a pick up game so its all pre arranged, same with primarchs, same with gargantuans, but im not trying to veil the decision in some weird anti super heavy etc. way, its just how we like to play

And two of those models had their rules written by GW main, IIRC (Reaver and Warhound).

 TheNewBlood wrote:
I've read through this thread in all its glory, and the best example Arkaine and Jancoran can come up with is...the Dreadclaw Assault Pod!

Hmmm, so now you're inserting words into my posts... interesting. I don't recall ever claiming it was a broken unit to begin with, in fact I only mentioned it on page 2 for an altogether different reason. If you mean the Kharybdis, the only thing I said was that I owned one. Try to refrain from treating two separate people identically and remember... don't shoot the messenger.

 purplkrush wrote:
They created their own little community. They raised it up from nothing and BUILT INTO the entire community their own personal bias.

Hi. This is a lie. If you bothered to read the thread, I have no control over the meta or the venue. I am not affiliated with the store, impressing any views upon its customers, and own several Forgeworld models myself which I use at other locations, Apoc games, or during casual play with permission. All of this is stated in this very thread for those who bother to read it. All others can continue to put forth their failures to comprehend why anyone would willingly accede to such rules when we see exactly the type that would arrive on a weekly basis for the events in a growing community.

But don't fret, brother. We occasionally see people like you at the store during RPG nights. Because we all know that if you don't let someone play a class, race, or use a feat, weapon, or spell published in an official Wizards of the Coast supplement book that you are a terrible DM and must be drawn and quartered in the square. Luckily we're in an environment where the PLAYERS decide the rules they use and what splatbooks or sources are permitted and do not accede to the tyrannical WHINING of some random guy on a forum who insists we're doing it wrong.

 Arkaine wrote:


But don't fret, brother. We occasionally see people like you at the store during RPG nights. Because we all know that if you don't let someone play a class, race, or use a feat, weapon, or spell published in an official Wizards of the Coast supplement book that you are a terrible DM and must be drawn and quartered in the square. Luckily we're in an environment where the PLAYERS decide the rules they use and what splatbooks or sources are permitted and do not accede to the tyrannical WHINING of some random guy on a forum who insists we're doing it wrong.

This is apples and oranges. DM's make their own world and of said race/class/spell doesn't exits it simply doesn't. You are talking about choices made not the break the world or story set fourth by a DM.

 Vash108 wrote:
This is apples and oranges. DM's make their own world and of said race/class/spell doesn't exits it simply doesn't. You are talking about choices made not the break the world or story set fourth by a DM.

These choices were made by the DM. The Democratic Majority. If the DM decides it doesn't exist... then it doesn't.