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 Vineheart01 wrote:
True, but i cant even think of a deathstar that has such a model that isnt an IC anyway with 2+ LoS (still dont get why the hell thats legal...should at least cut the chance down to a 4+ for ICs and 6+ for Characters)

Rule Number 1: force lots of saves.

Rule #2: 1's happen.

It isn't that you count on it. Its that its devastating when it happens, moreso than maybe hitting a couple extra times. Losing three stealth suits (likely less by the time they are ready to charge you) isnt crippling to the Tau. But losing the lynchpin can be crippling to the enemy. So its net gain for you.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
True, but i cant even think of a deathstar that has such a model that isnt an IC anyway with 2+ LoS (still dont get why the hell thats legal...should at least cut the chance down to a 4+ for ICs and 6+ for Characters)

In a kind of inverse to what you expect to use it for, you can use ATS to put saves onto normal models in the unit.

So say someone is running their deathstar with their 2+/3++ IC out front. You can use your 6s to instead put the wounds on the ordinary models hiding behind the much tougher IC model. They can't pass them back so you can effectively nullify the tanking IC.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
True, but i cant even think of a deathstar that has such a model that isnt an IC anyway with 2+ LoS (still dont get why the hell thats legal...should at least cut the chance down to a 4+ for ICs and 6+ for Characters)

In a kind of inverse to what you expect to use it for, you can use ATS to put saves onto normal models in the unit.

So say someone is running their deathstar with their 2+/3++ IC out front. You can use your 6s to instead put the wounds on the ordinary models hiding behind the much tougher IC model. They can't pass them back so you can effectively nullify the tanking IC.

That's...a really cool way to look at that.

I always favored taking down the commander though, mostly because most "stars" I face are mostly a big unit that is tanking for the IC, not the other way around.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
True, but i cant even think of a deathstar that has such a model that isnt an IC anyway with 2+ LoS (still dont get why the hell thats legal...should at least cut the chance down to a 4+ for ICs and 6+ for Characters)

In a kind of inverse to what you expect to use it for, you can use ATS to put saves onto normal models in the unit.

So say someone is running their deathstar with their 2+/3++ IC out front. You can use your 6s to instead put the wounds on the ordinary models hiding behind the much tougher IC model. They can't pass them back so you can effectively nullify the tanking IC.

As someone who consistently uses Tankmander strats, im surprised i never thought of that.
Very valid point.

You could also use it to take out models that give unit bonuses, like feel no pain, fearless, etc. Not all models that bestow these buffs are characters of any type.

yup. ATS is boss.

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-tau-empire-advanced-targeting-system.html

DirtyDeeds wrote:
You could also use it to take out models that give unit bonuses, like feel no pain, fearless, etc. Not all models that bestow these buffs are characters of any type.

Name one particular model bought by a unit that grants FNP or Fearless that isnt a character or a unit-wide purchase anyway.
For that matter, is a regular character. 4+ LoS is pretty lousy, i rarely make it, but i never ever see non-ICs sporting unit wide rules.

Characters are still nice to snipe out if you can though for obvious reasons, Leadership negatives, no challenges (CSM/KDK really hate that), and usually he has the nastier melee weapon if there is one.

Also theres a major flop in that link Jancoran. Characters do not get a 5+ Precision Shot in 7th, it was "models that already have it get a 5+" in the last book. Characters lost it by default, so the 5+ is impossible to get. Current dex doesnt even mention it anymore either. Unfortunately that also cuts Shadowsun's precision shots back to a 6+
That would be worth the 10pt upgrade on models like a Broadside to get a 5+ precision shot if that was true lol.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
You could also use it to take out models that give unit bonuses, like feel no pain, fearless, etc. Not all models that bestow these buffs are characters of any type.

Name one particular model bought by a unit that grants FNP or Fearless that isnt a character or a unit-wide purchase anyway.
For that matter, is a regular character. 4+ LoS is pretty lousy, i rarely make it, but i never ever see non-ICs sporting unit wide rules.

Characters are still nice to snipe out if you can though for obvious reasons, Leadership negatives, no challenges (CSM/KDK really hate that), and usually he has the nastier melee weapon if there is one.

Also theres a major flop in that link Jancoran. Characters do not get a 5+ Precision Shot in 7th, it was "models that already have it get a 5+" in the last book. Characters lost it by default, so the 5+ is impossible to get. Current dex doesnt even mention it anymore either. Unfortunately that also cuts Shadowsun's precision shots back to a 6+
That would be worth the 10pt upgrade on models like a Broadside to get a 5+ precision shot if that was true lol.

Was it a 6E post?

Regardless, I've killed guys BEHIND the 2+ tank and I have killed Missiles and I have killed Apothecaries (uh oh... a unit upgrade that isn't an IC!)

 Vineheart01 wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
You could also use it to take out models that give unit bonuses, like feel no pain, fearless, etc. Not all models that bestow these buffs are characters of any type.

Name one particular model bought by a unit that grants FNP or Fearless that isnt a character or a unit-wide purchase anyway.
For that matter, is a regular character. 4+ LoS is pretty lousy, i rarely make it, but i never ever see non-ICs sporting unit wide rules.

Characters are still nice to snipe out if you can though for obvious reasons, Leadership negatives, no challenges (CSM/KDK really hate that), and usually he has the nastier melee weapon if there is one.

Also theres a major flop in that link Jancoran. Characters do not get a 5+ Precision Shot in 7th, it was "models that already have it get a 5+" in the last book. Characters lost it by default, so the 5+ is impossible to get. Current dex doesnt even mention it anymore either. Unfortunately that also cuts Shadowsun's precision shots back to a 6+
That would be worth the 10pt upgrade on models like a Broadside to get a 5+ precision shot if that was true lol.

Apothecaries and standard bearers, to name a few.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Tried to mess around with multiple Cores to just bring a gakton of MSU but now that i actually try to make a list for it instead of thinking about it, kinda impossible in 2k or less games lol. The requirement of 1 Aux choice kinda prevents it.

Though i did come up with this:

Spoiler:

Hunter Contingent: 1 Core, 2 Aux choices

Core---
Commander: Warlord
--Duo MP, DC, TL -- 2 ML Drones -- 152pts

3x 5 Firewarrior Squads 45pts each (135 total)

3x Solo Crisis Suits
--Duo Plasma, EWO -- 57pts each (171 total)

1x 8 Pathfinders 88pts
1x 4 ML Drone Squad 56pts

1x Solo Broadside
--Missiles, EWO, Seeker Missile -- 2 Missile Drones -- 102pts

Retaliation Cadre---
Commander:
--Duo Fusion, Shields, Stims -- Iridium, NSJ, Gauntlet -- 2 Gun Drones -- 211pts

3x Solo Crisis Suits
--2 with Duo Fusions/EWO, one with Duo Plasma/EWO -- 57pts (171 total)

Riptide
--HBC/Fusion -- Stims/VT -- 235pts

Solo Broadside
--Missiles, EWO -- 2 Missile Drones -- 94pts

Optimized Stealth Cadre---
2x3 Stealth Suits
--Counterfire, Shas'vre w/ ML/TL, Homing Beacon, and Fusion Rifle -- 135pts (270 total)

Solo Ghostkeel
--CIB/Fusion -- CF/VT -- 165

Total: 1850
pts

The random seeker missile is because i had 8 points left over and nowhere to put it lol.

Everything is an independent unit but because of Hunter Contingent giving me Coordinated Fire they behave like a unit anyway, granting the bonus BS, shared ML, and act totally independently elsewise so no leadership problems or high RoF weapon problems whatsoever. It does let the opponent choose his target though.

Could technically remove the Pathfinders and the random Seeker to add a third Broadside to finish the trio. But something tells me even with Coord Fire only have 6 markerlights in the army is a baaaad idea lol

Couldn't you just take a Ret core and then alley a Ret Cad to them to avoid a forced second aux choice? The Dawn Blade buff does seem to be army wide not contingent based. Those two are only 1388ish points with upgrades (not max upgrades), including 6 Broadsides, 6 suits, 2 commanders one with missile pods and one with two drones, and two Riptides with Stim packs, and 1612pts with a drone net, meaning you have 238 points for other stuff.

No because the idea was to abuse the Coord Fire thing. If you arent using the Cores + Aux in Hunter Cont. then they dont have Coord Fire and thats what i was after.

The idea was to let them reap the benefits of being in a squad as well as get the "3 units = +1BS" perk virtually every time i fire. That way, when theyre being shot at the enemy can only kill one suit no matter how well they wound, because each suit is technology his own squad. It also lets me give the middle finger to unit coherency to completely dodge blasts.

It wouldnt work without Coord Fire because that would throw markerlights out the window to do anything. Dawn Blade would only work against a single target.

Oh, I was looking at it as maximizing relentless Broadsides and taking an extra Riptide.

If you want coordinated fire buffs, there are plenty of tricks to get them, such as having three suits base and then a ret cad as you have done. There's also Piranha tricks, since each Piranha can make a unit of drones, thus counting as two squads on its own for only 40 points.

Really the big trick with coordinated fire is building extra wide, and doing things like taking three one man squads of broadsides as your heavy and such.

Well, not sure if anyone noticed this, but the ITC "FAQ" has been updated with more rule changes.

Most notably:

Tau Empire:

Models in the Piranha Firestream Wing formation may not leave the table using the Rearm and Refuel special rule the same turn that they arrive from Reserves or Ongoing Reserves.
When returning to the table using the Rearm and Refuel special rule, the Piranha unit does so at full strength, including regaining Piranhas that have been destroyed earlier in the game. However, models that have formed their own unit due to being immobilized are not replaced.

All Ghostkeels in a unit activate their Holophoton Countermeasures at the same time.

If a Stormsurge that has deployed its Stabilising Anchors is Tank Shocked, it must Death or Glory in response. If it fails to stop the Tank Shocking vehicle, it suffers D3 wounds and the tank is left in base to base contact with the Stormsurge at the point it made contact with it.

General:

Any shooting attack or rule that requires a hit on a unit that is protected by a Void Shield hits the shield instead. Example: Psychic Witchfires, Marker Lights, etc. This will often nullify these attacks.

This means the drone factory idea is dead in ITC, and the Ghostkeels you never took in units larger than one has literally no purpose to being bigger than 1 ghostkeel.

Turns out the ITC also changed the rules and said you can't tank shock a GC/FGC unless you're a superheavy. No threat of your GC dying to Rhinos then. My mistake.

"All Ghostkeels in a unit activate their Holophoton Countermeasures at the same time" ok now im sure ITC just hates Tau and wants to remove all the shenanigans we have. The drone factory thing was expected, but this? it literally makes no sense. Its a piece of gear we do not have an option to bring and it has no bonus effect if multiple models use it.

ITC is really pissing me off. Cant stand their rule-changing mentality. Solve unanswerable issues and unusual situations like the Stormsurge Tankshock situation, not change rules that are clear cut for the hell of it. Thats hardly even considered an obscure rule since it specifies "model" several times before saying "unit" ONCE during the effect.
Makes no sense to use them all at once. Straight up middle finger to Tau, nothing else.

Having more than one Ghostkeel is fine in formations. Outside of formations there's very little reason to take anything in less than minimum squads.

Also in the LVO thread the ITC has said they will not allow Earth Caste on Riptides, but that is only a provesional rule for the LVO that will come up to a vote later. That being said, a lot of these might be voted on later and are only such due to their time crunch.

Remember, the great thing about the ITC is that they listen, and if you pose your views in a reasonable way they'll acknowledge them. Look forward to me trying to get you guys to vote for Earthtides in the future D:

I LOL at the ITC ruling on Ghostkeels. If you read the rule for the countermeasures, it is pretty clear cut it would affect the unit, not the model...

Why the stormsurge ruling? This is to much bias, I have a thread called ITC Flaws you guys should check it out.

 Vineheart01 wrote:


ITC is really pissing me off. Cant stand their rule-changing mentality. .

Yup. Not a fan. Its like the INAT was: WAAAAAAY too obtrusive. and wrong a lot.

Its like they want riptide wings, i think facing drone farm would be cool alot funner than facing a riptide wing! Make small changes like you cant leave first turn that automatically pushes back the potential of the farm and bam you have a unique fun list that is not competitive but its different.

Ok wow glad that this is the "whole lot of pessimism and very little information" page of the thread.

It can be simply summed up as Tinkrr did - take one Ghostkeel in a unit and no more than one. With very little restriction on number of detachments - even in the ITC format, you could take 2 Tau CADs and 1 FSE CAD if you really needed the slots, so although you'd have a whopping 270 point "tax" for 6 obsec units, you would also have 9 elites slots, so that's really not a problem either.

As far as the ITC ruling, it doesn't really belong in this thread but I would like to say something I think is important:

The rather abrupt ruling comes because the LVO is around the corner and they needed to settle the dispute (because it is at the very least minorly ambiguous) before the event. In Reece's words, they wanted to go with the "most conservative ruling" and it will be put up for a vote in the next poll, which will happen after the LVO.

Who gives a DAMN what the intent was. They are INVENTING rules! INVENTING them!

Your in a class full of marines and we get to vote on a Tau rule what is going to happen?

What about the OSC formation where you get them to ignore cover and get +1 bs, you cant take them solo? Unless you want to pay 180 points for the stealth suits?

What about the tank shock ruling on the stormsurge? Your using a special rule so we are going to penalize you for it! Why in the world does it have to be treated differently? Do we need to make it to where if you shot a heavy weapon in the previous shooting phase you have to death and glory?

Its bs utter nonsense!

 CKO wrote:
Your in a class full of marines and we get to vote on a Tau rule what is going to happen?

What about the OSC formation where you get them to ignore cover and get +1 bs, you cant take them solo? Unless you want to pay 180 points for the stealth suits?

What about the tank shock ruling on the stormsurge? Your using a special rule so we are going to penalize you for it! Why in the world does it have to be treated differently? Do we need to make it to where if you shot a heavy weapon in the previous shooting phase you have to death and glory?

Its bs utter nonsense!

Yup.

I've made this case a hundred times. when most people dont play youre army and they get to INVENT rules just because it sounds fluffy? What a crock of shizl.

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2015/04/has-itc-faq-overstepped-itself.html

 Mulletdude wrote:
Well, not sure if anyone noticed this, but the ITC "FAQ" has been updated with more rule changes.

Most notably:

Tau Empire:

Models in the Piranha Firestream Wing formation may not leave the table using the Rearm and Refuel special rule the same turn that they arrive from Reserves or Ongoing Reserves.
When returning to the table using the Rearm and Refuel special rule, the Piranha unit does so at full strength, including regaining Piranhas that have been destroyed earlier in the game. However, models that have formed their own unit due to being immobilized are not replaced.

All Ghostkeels in a unit activate their Holophoton Countermeasures at the same time.

If a Stormsurge that has deployed its Stabilising Anchors is Tank Shocked, it must Death or Glory in response. If it fails to stop the Tank Shocking vehicle, it suffers D3 wounds and the tank is left in base to base contact with the Stormsurge at the point it made contact with it.

General:

Any shooting attack or rule that requires a hit on a unit that is protected by a Void Shield hits the shield instead. Example: Psychic Witchfires, Marker Lights, etc. This will often nullify these attacks.

This means the drone factory idea is dead in ITC, the Stormsurge might just die to a bunch of Rhinos, and the Ghostkeels you never took in units larger than one has literally no purpose to being bigger than 1 ghostkeel.

I'm normally fine with ITC rulings but even I have to admit that it seems like they are specifically targeting Tau above most other codices in terms of what they can and cannot do. Does any other codex have this many rulings going specifically against them? Some of the rulings make perfect sense but others like the Ghostkeel one are head scratchers. Now, they did actually give the Stormsurge a plus if I'm not mistaken; I'm pretty sure without this new ruling the rules-as-written would actually see a Tank Shocked Stormsurge pretty much auto-die as it wouldn't be able to move out of the way and thus continuously take the automatic wounds, or am I wrong there?

The rules say that the Tank Shock would kill the StormSurge because it cannot be moved out of the Tank shockers way.

So the StormSurge is getting D3 wounds instead of dying.

leaving it in base contact makes no sense., as the Stormsurge can then smash down on it without moving the end of the round!

These guys just aren't thinking! They are writing new rules and they are not even thinking of the consequences. Not only that, but if i was a player who wanted to tank shock the Stormsurge dead in a totally legal way, how mad would I be that I not only don't get to but that it can now crush my hull at the end of the turn just by shooting one gun at it.?

As a Tau player this Ghostkeel thing is BS. the Piranha thing is BS.

I don't know what the heck is going on. What I do know is that I don't like it.

Can a garg creature be tank shocked? Id assume only by a super heavy.

Weve got the aus faq over here in oz which takes a few things and runs wild but thats for another thread.

At the moment im liking the commander in xv86 with shield gen and positional relay and supported by the guy with structural analyzer bringing in a squad of breachers or carbined/emp nades

casperionx wrote:
Can a garg creature be tank shocked? Id assume only by a super heavy.

Weve got the aus faq over here in oz which takes a few things and runs wild but thats for another thread.

At the moment im liking the commander in xv86 with shield gen and positional relay and supported by the guy with structural analyzer bringing in a squad of breachers or carbined/emp nades

Yes it can be shocked. The Pilons kill it if its tank shocked (read the rules and you will agree). So the StormSurge thing helps them and screws the player doing it twice. So. what was fair there?

The Ghostkeel thing is simply not a rule. They just made it up. There's no ambiguity. It works exactly as stated. they just didn't like it.

The Piranha thing: why? i know its good. I also know that lots of things are good. Do we go changing the fundamental way things are written just because they are? Yet...alllow... Forge World and the entire universe of things like it?

and the VOID SHIELD ruling? Holy crap.

 luke1705 wrote:
Ok wow glad that this is the "whole lot of pessimism and very little information" page of the thread.

It can be simply summed up as Tinkrr did - take one Ghostkeel in a unit and no more than one. With very little restriction on number of detachments - even in the ITC format, you could take 2 Tau CADs and 1 FSE CAD if you really needed the slots, so although you'd have a whopping 270 point "tax" for 6 obsec units, you would also have 9 elites slots, so that's really not a problem either.

As far as the ITC ruling, it doesn't really belong in this thread but I would like to say something I think is important:

The rather abrupt ruling comes because the LVO is around the corner and they needed to settle the dispute (because it is at the very least minorly ambiguous) before the event. In Reece's words, they wanted to go with the "most conservative ruling" and it will be put up for a vote in the next poll, which will happen after the LVO.

But the Ghostkeel clearly says models, not the unit - and you get +1 BS when packing three.
Pirahna...I'm undecided on it.
Stormsurge made sense, RAW didn't cover it.

RAW did cover it. Read it. its covered. Clearly. Really I mean it. It is.

Dont want to go through over 50 pages of chit chat but wanted to know if anyone has already discussed the "Beachhead" tactic on here yet? Basically it consits of the following:

-x2-3 Stormsurges
-Skyshield Landing Pad

Basically you put all of your Stormsurges up on the Skyshield to give them a dominating view of the table and you save points by not having to equip them with Shield Generators. Has anyone tried this yet?