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2016/02/03 10:01:35
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
Mulletdude wrote: Well, not sure if anyone noticed this, but the ITC "FAQ" has been updated with more rule changes.
Most notably:
Tau Empire:
Models in the Piranha Firestream Wing formation may not leave the table using the Rearm and Refuel special rule the same turn that they arrive from Reserves or Ongoing Reserves.
When returning to the table using the Rearm and Refuel special rule, the Piranha unit does so at full strength, including regaining Piranhas that have been destroyed earlier in the game. However, models that have formed their own unit due to being immobilized are not replaced.
All Ghostkeels in a unit activate their Holophoton Countermeasures at the same time.
If a Stormsurge that has deployed its Stabilising Anchors is Tank Shocked, it must Death or Glory in response. If it fails to stop the Tank Shocking vehicle, it suffers D3 wounds and the tank is left in base to base contact with the Stormsurge at the point it made contact with it.
General:
Any shooting attack or rule that requires a hit on a unit that is protected by a Void Shield hits the shield instead. Example: Psychic Witchfires, Marker Lights, etc. This will often nullify these attacks.
This means the drone factory idea is dead in ITC, the Stormsurge might just die to a bunch of Rhinos, and the Ghostkeels you never took in units larger than one has literally no purpose to being bigger than 1 ghostkeel.
OMG I'm glad this nonsense hasn't become big in europe, we do suffer from equally hilarious Comp rules in some places though. But this is is just beyond nonsense leaving one totally flabbergasted, in my view people should not be supporting things like this.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/02/03 10:25:35
2016/02/03 10:31:07
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
Frozocrone wrote: I'm not sure the base size would accommodate all three. Maybe two. WMS might have to play a part.
It's also static, so no good in Maelstrom. Eternal is a different story.
It actually does, someone over on Advanced Tau Tactica (where I got the idea from actually) posted a picture with all three bases fitting on the Skyshield Landing Pad. Granted I think it would work better with x2 personally so there would be some room to turn the model for LoS purposes.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/02/03 10:35:02
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
2016/02/03 11:24:12
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
Interesting idea with the Stormsurges. I'd rather pay the points to have the shield generators since it will allow you to move and go stomp things that don't come to you, and allow you to exert positional dominance more easily. That's certainly worth the extra points to me, but YMMV.
Re: ITC, I apologize if I opened/contributed to the can of worms, but it's really pretty simple. There will, in the relatively near future, be a vote to settle this. Personally, I think it will go in favor of one use per ghostkeel, as I believe that it RAI, but RAW is certainly murky. In the meantime, my group uses ITC rules and FAQs for their events, but we take the view that it is one per suit, as that's how it reads to us.
Point being, take or leave the ITC. It really doesn't matter. You could even get points in their system and have an "ITC event" where the ghostkeels are one use per suit (as is the case where I play). So at this point, it kind of feels like (some of us) have left a tactical discussion and started a whine fest, which really has no place in this thread (or anywhere if I'm being honest)
2016/02/03 11:40:57
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
Remember, the guys over at Frontline had 600 rules questions to go through before the LVO. Those 600 rules questions boiled down to 7 new additions in the faq. 5 of those 7 changed how Tau work.
2016/02/03 11:43:54
Subject: Re:For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
Also note on the Stormsurge issue, in the ITC Gargantuan Creatures can only be Tank Shocked by Super Heavies. Its under the "Super-Heavy Walkers (SHW), Gargantuan Creatures (GC) and Flying Gargantuan Creatures (FGC)" section.
2016/02/03 12:14:55
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
Hawkeye888 wrote: Ghostkeel ruling just a bunch of bs. Noting else was terrible.
The void shield ruling against markerlights was terrible. If the void shield blocks markerlights (which are just laser designators) then no unit under the effect of the void shield should be able to shoot outside the area of the void shield's effect, due to not being able to see out of it as apparently the void shield is blocking light from reaching them.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2016/02/03 12:54:03
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
The argument that the ITC has a bias for an army is silly. There are aomething like twice as many Eldar players as Tau players, but then there are also far more than twice as many non-Eldar players as there are Eldar players. The same is true for any other army, and on top of that many players play multiple armies in the ITC, not just one.
If you still don't believe me that there isn't a bias, well the least represented faction of Orks got a huge buff in the last vote, so you know...
The only rule changes that should have been changed is Coord Fire like they did (face it thats way op having buffmander spread across the entire army) and only allowing 1 WK despite the formation allowing multiple ones. Nothing else except for rules that are constantly being debated should ever be touched.
They also took Object Secured from necrons, which is bs. Wheres the nerf to Skyhammer? Oh wait, imperial army stuff.
Also there are plenty of reasons to field more than one ghostkeel in a squad. Less markerlights if not in the Hunter Cont, they can all benefit from an objective bonus at once, Fire Team, and much MUCH wider footprint for Supporting Fire. Not to mention thats 3 Elite slots if you field 3 solo ghosts, which drastically cut your other suit numbers
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/03 13:11:53
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2016/02/03 13:22:43
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
Your free to believe what you like, but look at it this way, favourtism or not, Marines haven't been winning the LVO and aren't taking up disproportional slots in the top 20 ITC player list, if anything they're taking up too few based on number of players from what I remember when I checked last. So yea, the ITC is still significantly more balanced than any other option, whether or not there is bias. Refusing to contribute to it only hurts you more, as nothing will change if you just ignore it, and as it's already a good system, imagine what it could be?
As for taking three deprecate Ghostkeels, well you could always take the Ghostkeel Wing, or the Ret Cad to get access to more suits. We're really not that restricted.
I myself intend to run two Ghostkeels in a unit for my OSC and have no problem losing one holo photon. If it does end up being a problem I can always restructure my list, no harm done.
Plainshow wrote: Also note on the Stormsurge issue, in the ITC Gargantuan Creatures can only be Tank Shocked by Super Heavies. Its under the "Super-Heavy Walkers (SHW), Gargantuan Creatures (GC) and Flying Gargantuan Creatures (FGC)" section.
I wasn't aware they changed the rules on that too. Thanks for the heads up. At least the Stormsurge won't be dying to tank shocks often.
2016/02/03 17:22:53
Subject: Re:For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
gmaleron wrote: Dont want to go through over 50 pages of chit chat but wanted to know if anyone has already discussed the "Beachhead" tactic on here yet? Basically it consits of the following:
-x2-3 Stormsurges
-Skyshield Landing Pad
Basically you put all of your Stormsurges up on the Skyshield to give them a dominating view of the table and you save points by not having to equip them with Shield Generators. Has anyone tried this yet?
Seems legit. I dont think three will fit on it though.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Mulletdude wrote: Well, not sure if anyone noticed this, but the ITC "FAQa been updated with more rule changes.
Most notably:
Tau Empire:
Models in the Piranha Firestream Wing formation may not leave the table using the Rearm and Refuel special rule the same turn that they arrive from Reserves or Ongoing Reserves.
When returning to the table using the Rearm and Refuel special rule, the Piranha unit does so at full strength, including regaining Piranhas that have been destroyed earlier in the game. However, models that have formed their own unit due to being immobilized are not replaced.
All Ghostkeels in a unit activate their Holophoton Countermeasures at the same time.
If a Stormsurge that has deployed its Stabilising Anchors is Tank Shocked, it must Death or Glory in response. If it fails to stop the Tank Shocking vehicle, it suffers D3 wounds and the tank is left in base to base contact with the Stormsurge at the point it made contact with it.
General:
Any shooting attack or rule that requires a hit on a unit that is protected by a Void Shield hits the shield instead. Example: Psychic Witchfires, Marker Lights, etc. This will often nullify these attacks.
This means the drone factory idea is dead in ITC, and the Ghostkeels you never took in units larger than one has literally no purpose to being bigger than 1 ghostkeel.
Turns out the ITC also changed the rules and said you can't tank shock a GC/FGC unless you're a superheavy. No threat of your GC dying to Rhinos then. My mistake.
To be honest, I feel like the rules change on Void Shield stopping marker lights from affecting units inside its bubble is probably far more problematic for Tau.
Actually, couldn't shoot units protected by a VSG anyways so I guess it doesn't matter
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/05 04:14:27
gmaleron wrote: Ironically its because of Bias that my FLGS refuses to ever accept their rule set, we feel that they favor Imperial Armies to much.
Based off of what empirical evidence, if I may ask? Not trying to be facetious - I am genuinely curious how you think their last tournament had a space marine or imperial bias. It featured a Tyranid/Astra Militarum final, in addition to enabling several strong Daemon, Eldar and Tau builds, and had some ridiculous amount of parity in the top 16 of the last tournament, something like 12 different armies IIRC. There was a green tide that won one of their recent GT, and here's an article showcasing the top 16 armies going into day 2 of the 2015 BAO (also run by them)
The FAQ is not why these armies won or lost in most cases. So that makes this list a non sequitur.
What is critical to his point is that they dont like the FAQ and...in addition... it DOES benefit the Imperial armies.
So all your list does is illustrate is how good a General these winners were. It has zilch to say about the FAQ being used because FAQ's don't win championships.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
1) Daemons
2) Tyranids
3) Tau/Eldar
4) Khorne Daemonkin
5) Space Marines
6) Space Marines
7) Renegades & Daemonkin
8) War Convocation
9) Tau
10) Tau
11) Eldar/DE 12) Eldar/DE 13) Necrons
14) Space Marines
15) Orks
16) Orks
How many imperial armies was that? 3 out of 16 or 18 percent?
Your turn
We sat down and looked at the rules and made a judgement call, as mentioned above plenty of nerfs to particular xenos factions yet Imperials got to keep all their toys was one of the big reasons. Oh and by the way its 4/16 armies above so 25% of the armies were Imperial, War Convocation and Ad Mech last time I checked were pretty Imperial.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/03 21:30:38
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
2016/02/04 00:29:27
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
Hey guys... is there a consensus for how many Tetra are worth owning or fitting into most TAC lists? I see FW sells them in pairs, and the unit can be run as 1-4 Tetra.
I am thinking of buying two sets of two... is that a good choice that I will field fairly often? Should I run them as two units?
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
4980pts Total (4980pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted)
2016/02/04 00:57:33
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
First of all, it's absurd to claim that things like Ad Mech or whatever are Imperium. Yes, they're imperial armies but they're so different from the others, and really don't get allied in super friends as often if at all.
Secondly, Space Marine factions don't get nerfed as often (yes they lose things but in secondary ways) because they're generally the most balanced. They do a little of everything, but don't have any super special rules or niches, which means they'll never have one thing that makes them too good like other factions, so many small tertiary nerfs are enough.
Finally, here's the top ten ranked players of the LVO and what armies they play:
1.) Orks, Demons, one game eldar
2.) Agents, Tyranids
3.) Space Marines, Eldar
4.) Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Marines
5.) Eldar, Tau
6.) Edlar, Space Marines
7.) Agents, Eldar, Tau
8.) Orks
9.) Demons, Eldar, Grey Knights, Tyranids
10.) Imperial Guard
Yes, various marine factions pop up on there, but so do most armies. It's not unreasonable to see the most generically good army be there the most, it's also not wrong to see a lot of different Imperium armies because of how many there are. It's basic statistics really, and look at the only two players who only played one army the whole time, it's Orks and IG... Yea.
Edit: Extended it to the top 16 to be consistent with last years top 16. Looks like Agents, which I'm guessing is the War Convocation/Ad Mech/Skitarii/whatever, is doing the best so far in the top 16, with Eldar being pretty comparable. I guess the ITC is Ad Mech and Eldar biased but not Marine biased? More so, what's not represented here, the SoBs and Dark Eldar? Oh, and I guess Blood Angels and Necrons. By your logic 50% of unrepresented armies are Imperium, and if you go to the top 20 instead of the top 16 you see two Necron players, one Dark Eldar Player, but no Blood Angels or SoBs... Guess Imperium isn't that great since they're the only ones not represented in top 20 at all, right?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/04 02:19:13
Basically, right now you're looking at Tetras, Skyrays, and Drones (Net or Mark'O) as your primary marker sources. I haven't seen people use tetras, almost ever, but I've heard a lot of talk about them, so who knows.
Tinkrr wrote: Basically, right now you're looking at Tetras, Skyrays, and Drones (Net or Mark'O) as your primary marker sources. I haven't seen people use tetras, almost ever, but I've heard a lot of talk about them, so who knows.
I think you're right that they tend to be outclassed in versatility and durability per markerlight by the Skyray, outclassed in pure markerlights per point by the drone net, and surpassed in both by the drone commander, especially if you give him the iridium armor. 4 2+ woinds is nothing to sniff at when you're likely hugging cover and LOS-ing that las cannon shot to some mook who is going to take a cover save most of the time.
A lesser-used source would be the sniper teams, since they can also do the drone commander for cheaper. I think your best
Best is Mark'O unless you're just running formations that don't need the commander. Because honestly, what else are you going to do with him unless you're running farsight bomb and want a true buffmander?
2016/02/04 01:48:37
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
Tetras are pretty good, but are really fragile. If something with sufficient strength or volume of fire attacks them, you're forced to jink which ruins their ability to land marker hits in the future. The skyray mitigates this by having armor 13 and the ability to hide behind ruins for a 3+ cover save with the disruption pod. Marker Drones are my favorite because of how mobile they are in comparison to pathfinders and have a 4+ save.
2016/02/04 01:56:24
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
Tinkrr wrote: Basically, right now you're looking at Tetras, Skyrays, and Drones (Net or Mark'O) as your primary marker sources. I haven't seen people use tetras, almost ever, but I've heard a lot of talk about them, so who knows.
I think you're right that they tend to be outclassed in versatility and durability per markerlight by the Skyray, outclassed in pure markerlights per point by the drone net, and surpassed in both by the drone commander, especially if you give him the iridium armor. 4 2+ woinds is nothing to sniff at when you're likely hugging cover and LOS-ing that las cannon shot to some mook who is going to take a cover save most of the time.
A lesser-used source would be the sniper teams, since they can also do the drone commander for cheaper. I think your best
Best is Mark'O unless you're just running formations that don't need the commander. Because honestly, what else are you going to do with him unless you're running farsight bomb and want a true buffmander?
I think that's mostly it, the auxiliary choice is usually a drone net or a drone team (for regular Hunter), and then it's just really easy to get a Mark'O in there. The other Commanders are pretty specialized and cost a lot of points, even if I just run mine with weapons hoping to roll certain Warlord traits, and if not I can still use him, though I've considered making it a Mark'O.
Skyrays are super point efficient if you have a regular CAD, but are hard to take in anything else.
The Tetras are good, as long as that's what you want exactly, but don't want drones or a Mark'O for some reason. The new formations really made Tetras a lot less of an obvious option. Even then you can honestly consider something like Remoras, though that's going a bit deep.
CKO wrote: WIth marker lights there is no this one is best it all depends on your list.
I'd say there's a spectrum, as there's clearly a general best to worst range, but when looking at it the top choices are list dependent. The one thing I can say for sure is Pathfinders are just a bad choice for Markers these days, and Tetras are slowly being edged out.
Tinkrr wrote: First of all, it's absurd to claim that things like Ad Mech or whatever are Imperium. Yes, they're imperial armies but they're so different from the others, and really don't get allied in super friends as often if at all.
So an army that is a faction of the Imperium that is battle brothers with all of the other Imperial armies, how in the hell is it absurd to claim that it is Imperium? It's not absurd, whether you like it or not they are all listed under Imperium and are different kinds of Imperial armies. That's like saying demons and Chaos Space Marines don't belong to chaos it makes zero sense.
And talk about butchering my logic, it's pretty clear from that list you posted up that a good chunk of the armies are Imperial armies. If ITC had decided to nerf the Space Marine decurion along with the xenos factions in some way shape or form it wouldn't nearly be as much of an issue, however from all of the different things that were"voted" on ( and have seen plenty of issue with how the voting process went down) it just seems that Imperium get the benefit of the doubt way too often. We don't have to like ITC, just because we don't you don't have to get upset about it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/04 03:27:31
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
2016/02/04 03:31:56
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
I forgot about pathfinders dont take them for marker lights.
Although for 89 points you can get 6 str 6 ap 1 shots outflanking with a range of 21 inches from the board edge. I don't know how good that is but I am trying to make an msu style list work with our formations and I already have piranhas and stealth suits and drones so its kinda useful I dont know what you guys think?
Tinkrr wrote: First of all, it's absurd to claim that things like Ad Mech or whatever are Imperium. Yes, they're imperial armies but they're so different from the others, and really don't get allied in super friends as often if at all.
So an army that is a faction of the Imperium that is battle brothers with all of the other Imperial armies, how in the hell is it absurd to claim that it is Imperium? It's not absurd, whether you like it or not they are all listed under Imperium and are different kinds of Imperial armies. That's like saying demons and Chaos Space Marines don't belong to chaos it makes zero sense.
And talk about butchering my logic, it's pretty clear from that list you posted up that a good chunk of the armies are Imperial armies. If ITC had decided to nerf the Space Marine decurion along with the xenos factions in some way shape or form it wouldn't nearly be as much of an issue, however from all of the different things that were"voted" on ( and have seen plenty of issue with how the voting process went down) it just seems that Imperium get the benefit of the doubt way too often. We don't have to like ITC, just because we don't you don't have to get upset about it.
Ok, let's ask this question, how often are Agents list allied with Marines? As in, what events brought Ad Mech/Skitarri/etc allied with marines at 1850 using the LVO rules.
Now how often are CSM and Demons allied?
Edit: I'll give you a hint, Taudar are a bigger thing the Mech-rines (Mar-Ad?) , by a pretty big margin.