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I love my Tetras, they work great for me. The combination of quick, relocating markers (move+range total 48") and their low profile (so they rarely jink) make them very versitile. As a fast skimmer they grab remote objectives in a pinch. Don't overlook being able to outflank a squadron 12" in and have a nice bubble from their homing beacons. I prefer to run mine in two packs. For under the cost of a Skyray you can get 3, and due to their Twin-Linked Markerlights, should hit fliers about as often, with the potential for a few more. I think Tinkrr is right, the best marker units depend on the list. As someone who generally lothes Pathfinders (although the Ranged Support Cadre ones seem OK) I lean on Tetras heavily.

Technically the only FW model i have is R'alai, the other 2 are commander proxies. But i've heard nothing but praise about Tetras so i dont know what the hesitating about bringing them is about.

Yeah theyre fragile but theyre 36" and can move 12" before firing. Even pathfinders tend to live awhile when they hide behind your army, but pathfinders dont have Jink to fall back on (considering for me, usually my pathfinders are in the open, 5+ cover, or in front of my army in ruins/rubble which kinda counters the 4+ cover).

Main issue i see is they mandate a CAD. For me, not a problem since i usually have a CAD anyway, but for some people i could see that being a problem since 1850pts goes away really damn fast when you use more than 1 formation (i.e. hunter cont. requirements)
Part of me hopes FW releases a statement saying "Any FW Model may be taken in a formation the model they closely resemble instead of the original model" but im also glad that never happened lol. Oh man the lists would explode with cheese...imagine taking 3 R'varnas in a Riptide Wing or abusing the "repairing" rules of the Piranha Wing with Tetras lol.

The issue with Pathfinders isn't even how well they survive, but how they can't move and shoot Markers. It's just that when you park them in a place, if the board is set up well the opponent has all the power when positioning against them, and then you're kind of stuck. Mark'Os, Drone Nets, and more just don't have this issue.

More so, the ITC has been moving towards more terrain that doesn't have windows where you can just ignore terrain, so that's a factor too.

I am taking them for str 6 ap 1 shots which is a rapid fire weapon so they could move. As a markerlight source they are not good there are better sources.

I just found out that the number 1 ITC Tau player was going to play the piranha formation at LVO but now he has to play something different! After he has painted up several piranhas and drones!

as much as i love the Rail/Ion rifle, i just hate how you cant get a full squad of them and its only for Pathfinders. I really, really, really wish they gave Firewarrior Shas'uis access to it.
Pulse Carbines do not synergise with those two guns at all. Rail rifles want to abuse their AP, which makes the pulse carbines not do that much. Ion rifles make more sense, but then you factor in the range difference.

Worse yet, 5+ armor. 5+....armor.... they never get their armor save so the moment they get shot at outside of cover they die instantly. And if they are being offensive with short range guns, odds are they wont have cover alot of the time. Or get charged.
Still dont get why they dont have Moves Through Cover and Stealth, since theyre..yaknow...the scouts for the army?

Well yea, the Piranha formation was stupidly broken if you did the math, it's still fine as a replenishing Seeker platform, and why I'll probably run it as such. Plus I just like the models.

 Tinkrr wrote:
Well yea, the Piranha formation was stupidly broken if you did the math, it's still fine as a replenishing Seeker platform, and why I'll probably run it as such. Plus I just like the models.

Do the math and tell me how its broken.

Turn 1 = 0 benefit if you buy that many piranhas normally you get that many drones
Turn 2 = 140 points on the field when you paid 200 points = 60 point decrease
Turn 3 = 280 points on the field = 80 point advantage on turn 3
Turn 4= 220 point advantage on turn 4
Turn 5=360 point advantage on turn 5 same turn the game ends

You start to see the point advantage on turn 3 but it is literally 80 points, wow!

Turn 4 is when you start to see the power of the formation that means your opponent has 2 turns to defend himself from the drones!

thats easy.

16 piranha with no upgrades is 640pts. Turn 1 they dump 32 gun drones and leave. Turn 2 they dump off another 32 gun drones and leave. Turn 3 ... Turn 4... Turn 5....

In the end its 160-224 gun drones depending on the number of turns. Only way to counter it is with interceptor and wiping out the entire squad, which even tau would struggle with across the damn table.
Dont underestimate gun drones. Even if you dont take the Drone Net to make them BS3 (which is kinda mandatory) thats a LOT of mobile, moderately durable, painful units that are not worth any points per vehicle and drone rules. For free, and no test or anything.

Even the measly 10 drones my 5 piranhas dump off i use as a mobile wall tends to do a ton more damage than i ever expect them to do.

Weight of dice wins games. Str5 can hurt T8 too, and since theyre literally worth nothing to lose you dont have to worry about losing them to cockblock things.

 CKO wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
Well yea, the Piranha formation was stupidly broken if you did the math, it's still fine as a replenishing Seeker platform, and why I'll probably run it as such. Plus I just like the models.

Do the math and tell me how its broken.

Ok, so how much is a Piranha, 40 points, how much are drones 12 points for war gear and 14 for the drones themselves. That means the Piranha is 40 - 24/28, meaning it's 16-12 points base.

Now we can assume the drones are war gear, not independent drones. Meaning that each Piranha produces 24 points of drones a turn.

Let's assume you take a maximum wing of Piranha, that's 640pts for 16 Piranha or 384 points a turn of free drones. Now we can both agree that 640 isn't that much of your army, it's not nothing, but it's not more than half your list either at 1850, but more so, if we drag that across three turns, assuming the last turn you use your Piranha for more than Drone Spawning, because you assume you will end on turn 4, that means you've made 1152 points of free drones, that's much more than 50% of your army points. Remember, that's 1152 points free, not counting the drones on the Piranha that last turn, you can easily double the points of your army if the game goes any longer than 4 turns, for free.

Don't forget, if you're doing the drone spawn thing, you're bringing a Drone Net, meaning those Drones are just Fire Warriors.

So yea, let's look at the math, is 1152 points of free units not broken? Is playing 3002 points in an 1850 game, or even 3700 points in an 1850 game, fair? Even if those extra points are Jet Pack Fire Warriors with better toughness? More so, remember, those Piranha couldn't be shot, ever, unless you had EWO type systems because they could come on, drop off drones, and then leave the table all in the same turn.

Turn 1 doesnt count you get those drones by default!

Turn 2 is when you start to count extra drones.

If you make a change to say you cant leave turn 1 pushes this chart back by 1 turn and the formation can be used but its not as daunting!

5 piranhas 200 points

Turn 1 = 0 benefit if you buy that many piranhas normally you get that many drones
Turn 2 = 140 points on the field when you paid 200 points = 60 point decrease
Turn 3 = 280 points on the field = 80 point advantage on turn 3
Turn 4= 220 point advantage on turn 4
Turn 5=360 point advantage on turn 5 same turn the game ends

If you include the drone network thats 864 points!

Except you make drones turn one, and the move out from turn one. It's turn 4 or 5 that you don't make drones, which is what I'm basing my calculations on. We're both giving away a free turn, it's just more important when that turn is given away, as you'll start spawning turn one, and not spawn only on the turn you think it will end, or you'll spawn and it will end, and that's the wave you lose out on, the first wave you're gaining.

You also go with a minimal unit, and still end up with a huge point lead, shifting turn one to zero. Imagine if you take a maximum unit, it's not that expensive and produces that much more power.

Even if you assume the drones are just Fire Warriors, and count them at 9points a model, with a maximum Piranha wing, spawning for three turns (count it from first or last being lost) you're generating 864 points of free stuff. That's 47% of your total points (Sorry, total starting points, not points after the free stuff) in free stuff at 1850...

Edit: Turn four is when you move on and don't spawn drones but rather try to deny line breaker or whatever if you think it will end. Though imagine if it goes those six turns, jeez.

But if you paid for piranhas normally would you get the drones? So the formation special rules has nothing to do with you getting the first patch of drones. In your scenario turn 2 and 3 is when you produce the drones meaning 280 points worth of free drones if you let the drones off its 420 since your staying on the board for turn 4.

You are almost making it sound like you're factoring in the piranha's cost multiple times. Even at 5 piranhas, thats 140pts of drones per turn. 140pts that are worth no victory conditions so theyre not only powerful enough to be a threat, but are worthless to dump weapons on to remove.
Yes the initial 10 gun drones would be brought outside of the formation anyway. That makes turn 2 140pt bonus, not 80, because now you have 20 gun drones. The opponent can kill them, but that just feeds my point about it being worthless to kill them objectively.

I field 5 piranhas outside the formation regularly as a mobile wall of annoyance. The 5 piranhas and the 10 gun drones are a massive thorn because they HAVE to be dealt with or they will murder your face off/give me army-wide 5+ cover. Every single person ive played this against has told me they feel like theyre wasting time killing those two units off to get at my better units, but at the same time they cant ignore them.

I have put to much energy into this, I am about to play League of Legends!

I give!

 CKO wrote:
WIth marker lights there is no this one is best it all depends on your list.

sort of... Id say you can't really beat a drone net of 4x4 marker drones

Thanks guys. I do very much appreciate the depth of thought. To provide further info, and further questions...

I was looking at Tetras as a good generalist Markerlight source that could also be very mobile. I'm very new to the army (assembling my first units now) despite playing 40k forever, so while I have budgeted to buy a fairly large amount over the course of the year, I don't currently have enough Marker Drones to run the Drone Net, and still run things like Ghostkeel or Riptides that come with their own Drones as well.

I'm not familiar with the Skyray or what you guys are calling Mark'O though. Any insights?

And as questions go... I am finding that Tau seem to have so so so much more overlap of unit function than any army I have played. Their optimal anti-tank, or anti-personal, etc... seem to have a ton of options. IE... if I plan to play in a 2+ save environment, i've got Riptides, i've got Y'vahra, etc...

Is this a typical thing for Tau? I am so used to armies where one unit definitively fills a role.

Tau typically sport more AP2 weapons than most armies, and they can get it in every force slot except Troop. So yeah they have a lot of overlapping roles, but theres only so many "roles" when the army is entirely shooty and no assaulty. Only reason the Ghostkeels can be in assault is because of MC rules and unlike riptides theyre cheap enough to put multiples in a unit and not suffer from it (also in thanks to the coversave protection).

Mark'O is a term used to describe a Commander with a Drone Controller. He makes any gun, marker, or sniper drones in his unit BS5. You attach a random commander to a squad of Markerdrones for 4-8 or however many you want BS5 Markerdrones.

Skyrays are one of our tanks. They are a seekermissile boat, sporting 6 of them. They also have SMS for free (no reason to ever not take it) and have 2 Networked markerlights (meaning he can benefit from his own markerlights) attached to his missile rack. Theyre expensive for dedicated markerlight use, but once they dump their missiles thats their main function is additional markerlights.

Also remember Riptides dont come with drones by default. They are 25pts each and are a complete waste of points. I dont even have mine assembled lol

---

Anybody know why people hate SMS so badly? I hear more rage about SMS than i do broadsides which is kinda sad lol.
S5 AP5, 4 shots, usually twinlinked, 30" range and ignore cover/ignore LoS. I dont get why people think this gun is so OP because it has indirect fire. Literally everything that can get one also has another gun thats vastly more powerful that gets wasted if we use the indirect fire.
Riptide: HBC or IA is far, far more powerful than an SMS. No way in hell im not firing it to fire indirect with SMS.
Hammerhead: Ion Cannon or Railgun...again vastly more powerful
Firewarrior's turret: Has to fire with the rest of the unit, meaning 1-12 Pulse Rifles or Carbines dont do a damn thing. The rate of fire loss is way more painful to us than the indirect is to you.
Skyray: Before seekers: if you dont want to use seekers, i can see it, but we lose the 2 BS4 markerlights then. After seekers: same mentality but no worry about not getting to use the seekers since theyre already used.
Stormsurge: ok this one actually CAN use it thanks to GMC rules, but the SMS is probably the lowest threat this thing has.

Thats all that can get it. Skyrays are the closest we got to using it indirectly without suffering from not firing the other weapons and isnt a GMC. Its not like we can buy it on our crisis suits for 20pts each or something and abuse the sight to hell.
Why is this weapon flamed so damn badly?

Thanks so much Vineheart. I needed to spend a little more time reading the Codex and thinking about list-building. I know you might laugh, but it is weird being spoiled for riches. Having to actually think and make my own choices in list-building is refreshing, and exciting.

If I may ask... is there a general sense of how many Markerlight sources are good in MOST lists?

I am liking what I see from the Skyrays, as Markerlights but also doubling as anti-air, or anti-MC, but love the thought of Tetras that happen to survive as zippy-fast objective grabbers.

Of course, if a Drone-Commander build is just plain best over-all, and I happen to own him anyway, I am not upset at having to NOT go buy three Skyrays or four Tetras. :-p


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, as a general Marker Drone tactica... am I wrong in thinking more often than not they are left out in the open, or in area-terrain?

I ask because, as Heavy weapons, don't they end up snap-firing the entire game if you're trying to position them as needed? Doesn't that make the Markerlights on vehicle platforms significantly more useful?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, as a general Marker Drone tactica... am I wrong in thinking more often than not they are left out in the open, or in area-terrain?

I ask because, as Heavy weapons, don't they end up snap-firing the entire game if you're trying to position them as needed? Doesn't that make the Markerlights on vehicle platforms significantly more useful?

Marker Drones are Jet Pack Infantry. Jet Pack Infantry is Relentless. Relentless allows units to move and fire Heavy Weapons without snapfiring. Rules are fun.

The amount of markerlights is the ever going decision. It heavily depends on WHAT markerlights you bring and how badly the rest of your army needs it.

The Mark'O strat is pretty much guaranteed marks, but only against one unit and its coming from one unit so it can be focus fired down. Dont solely depend on a Mark'O, you want either some tetras, pathfinders, or a backup drone squad to swap to when the current one takes damage. You pretty much have to playtest yourself to feel how many you need. Believe me, it hurts just as much having too many markerlights as it does having too little.

The main problem with the Mark'O is its a commander thats basically doing nothing. You can still give him Missile Pods and a Targetlock so he can at least fire at something, but thats a pretty lousy setup for such an expensive/high statline model. No signature systems, no BS5 fusions, etc etc. Well he can take signature systems but none of them really do anything if hes attached to marker drones.

I can't decide which is better, I've been struggling for the last week!

A riptide wing (2x Burst, 1x Ion) or a Y'vahra + 2 riptides (burst/ion? Burst/Burst?)

Is it fair to assume you will often get a re-roll for two of the three Riptides (based on coherency, attrition, flexibility etc.). The extra-turn shooting is also a huge plus.

Does the Flametide trump all that?

Stand-alone, Y'vahra is the most powerful Riptide variant. It causes so much grief and is so damn hard to pin down, its rather op imo.

However the HBC riptide is NOT weak. Only reason people use IA over it is because IA doesnt have the nova risk or requirement while the HBC does. The formation drastically lowers that problem, making them pretty damn strong. 12 S6 Rending attacks can attack anything in the game...ive had them take out land raiders in 1 volley (admittedly a little unlikely but it can happen).
If i were to run the riptide wing i'd probably do 2HBC and 1IA. Only because one of my riptides has his IA hardfixed due to internal wirings from a botched lightup attempt, and i really dont feel like cutting it off to put the HBC option back in lol

 CKO wrote:
I forgot about pathfinders dont take them for marker lights.

Although for 89 points you can get 6 str 6 ap 1 shots outflanking with a range of 21 inches from the board edge. I don't know how good that is but... what you guys think?

It's very good. I do it all the time. I do it more expensively though. Some less imaginative sorts like to call me crazy for it and i'm okay with that as long as they accept the games outcome one way or the other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CKO wrote:
I am taking them for str 6 ap 1 shots which is a rapid fire weapon so they could move. As a markerlight source they are not good there are better sources.

I just found out that the number 1 ITC Tau player was going to play the piranha formation at LVO but now he has to play something different! After he has painted up several piranhas and drones!

yip.

Imagine if he had planned on three Ghostkeels.

The LVO is probably fun, but I'm passing...again.

Every time i think i want to go to those kinds of things (or Adepticon, or NOVA or whatever), something like this happens and i am reminded of why I skipped them. I've gone to events as large as 100 players, 76 players, and 50 players and gone undefeated, so I always wonder what could have been if I went to a 250 person event. It's a logical thing to do if it were local, but it's a decision when it's not. Honestly though I think the journey is just not worth the aggravation. Who even remembers without googling it who won the last two (don't bother answering, no one will think you didn't google it). So winning it would be cool for all the obvious reasons but...

No LVO for me in 2016. Maybe 2017?

Lord Ruby34 wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, as a general Marker Drone tactica... am I wrong in thinking more often than not they are left out in the open, or in area-terrain?

I ask because, as Heavy weapons, don't they end up snap-firing the entire game if you're trying to position them as needed? Doesn't that make the Markerlights on vehicle platforms significantly more useful?

Marker Drones are Jet Pack Infantry. Jet Pack Infantry is Relentless. Relentless allows units to move and fire Heavy Weapons without snapfiring. Rules are fun.

Thanks man. Tau are definitely introducing me to a wealth of situations, options, and rules, I had no reason to encounter previously. Having barely played 40k for two years hasn't helped... but likewise has also helped me come back to the game refreshed and enthusiastic.

Cheers.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 CKO wrote:
WIth marker lights there is no this one is best it all depends on your list.

sort of... Id say you can't really beat a drone net of 4x4 marker drones

It's a lot of points though, and potentially too many markerlights. For example, one list that I'm going to run is a double OSC, with 6 ghostkeels....really don't need 16 markerlights haha

 luke1705 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 CKO wrote:
WIth marker lights there is no this one is best it all depends on your list.

sort of... Id say you can't really beat a drone net of 4x4 marker drones

It's a lot of points though, and potentially too many markerlights. For example, one list that I'm going to run is a double OSC, with 6 ghostkeels....really don't need 16 markerlights haha

Well alright, but what else are you running? I mean it could easily be right to just not take the Net and just one unit of drones plus a Mark'O or just a Skyray or two, but you have to admit, the Drone Net can still be good even in a double OSC list, which just punctuates how rather powerful it is.

I think one of the best parts about the Drone Formation that always makes it worth taking is the fact that they all have Skyfire. I have a surprisingly large number of Tyranid, Chaos Demons, Crimson Hunter spam in my local meta and these things have been a god send in countering it.

 gmaleron wrote:
I think one of the best parts about the Drone Formation that always makes it worth taking is the fact that they all have Skyfire. I have a surprisingly large number of Tyranid, Chaos Demons, Crimson Hunter spam in my local meta and these things have been a god send in countering it.

The Drone Net doesn't have Skyfire on its own D:

They get: Interceptor, jink, outflank, precision shot, and split fire. Granted, the Interceptor rule is really good for EWO plays as it takes away the main weakness of those, and Jink is no joke.

Edit: It also makes Missile Drones a lot better on Broadsides, especially if you're running a Ret Cad and have relentless Broadsides.

 Tinkrr wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
I think one of the best parts about the Drone Formation that always makes it worth taking is the fact that they all have Skyfire. I have a surprisingly large number of Tyranid, Chaos Demons, Crimson Hunter spam in my local meta and these things have been a god send in countering it.

The Drone Net doesn't have Skyfire on its own D:

They get: Interceptor, jink, outflank, precision shot, and split fire. Granted, the Interceptor rule is really good for EWO plays as it takes away the main weakness of those, and Jink is no joke.

Edit: It also makes Missile Drones a lot better on Broadsides, especially if you're running a Ret Cad and have relentless Broadsides.

You are correct, meant interceptor!!

Out of curiosity, do people like Vector Tracker on the Stormsurge? Beyond its potential D-missiles, is its 4D6 shots going to do much at STR-5? Against Flyrants I can see it doing ok on volume of fire, but is it too low S to do much against most flyers?