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Not so surprising actually, Necrons are super durable and tough, especially so in the hands of a good player. Some of the other xeno armies have some of their strengths in many of the now (in ITC etc) nerfed and wrongly perceived "op" units/rules. This is why i believe everyone should game without restrictions like proper D strenght, invis, multi LoW, Coordinated Firepower etc because when faced with a well played counter it is not "op" in any way. Tau not making it just reinforces this i believe.

So far well played Necrons, well played.

X078 wrote:
Not so surprising actually, Necrons are super durable and tough, especially so in the hands of a good player. Some of the other xeno armies have some of their strengths in many of the now (in ITC etc) nerfed and wrongly perceived "op" units/rules. This is why i believe everyone should game without restrictions like proper D strenght, invis, multi LoW, Coordinated Firepower etc because when faced with a well played counter it is not "op" in any way. Tau not making it just reinforces this i believe.

So far well played Necrons, well played.

But knowing they have done well, we as Tau Generals need to pay close attention to how we can best serve them unremitting loses after this. hehehe.

I love how the ITC panic-mode nerf-called Ghost-Keels for fear of what it could do, but no one scoffed at the Top 8 list that has 45 Warp Spiders in it. :-p

They already nerfed the spiders to only once per shooting phase if I remember right. Still the free movement is better than a single unit having to snap fire once per game per model.

 Tinkrr wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
That LVO game was torture to watch. :-p Both players played very slowly, dice were rolling poorly for the both of them.... man...

It was not a very exciting showing for either list, and that salty ending... woof.

Yea, that game was kind of whatever, it was more that I was shocked that it was possible to do that, since that opens up a lot of options for taking allied Cads, since you can just throw in a couple extra solo suits, and gain access to a huge amount of utility, while still gaining all the benefits of the formation.

It's not tied to the main list being Dawnblade. Mont'ka allows for you to declare a CAD to be Farsight Enclaves, which moves Crisis Suits to Troops.

So, purchase question incoming.

I intended to get a Ta'unar for massive games when i got my tax returns this year. My tax returns were a ....bit bigger... than i expected so i plan to abuse the free shipping and get something else too. problem is i really dont want to get all the options because thats insanely expensive..lol...

Originally i wanted to get some Hazard suits, but now i cant decide between them, an R'varna, or a Y'vahra. On one hand, i play mostly friendly games so i wouldnt even be using the Ta'unar that much as it is, which makes me lean more towards the Hazard suits because i think i'd use them more since they are by no means OP lol. R'varna or Y'vahra...my main fear is i may end up deciding theyre too powerful in friendly games and shelve them as often as the Ta'unar or the Stormsurge.

How powerful do you guys think the R'varna is? Ive never proxied him in, though i have proxied the Y'vahra a couple times and he wrecked face.

course i'd rather get a Barracuda but nope...ugh lol

Athestics - if you are trumping up large amounts of cash, you really want to love both the rules and the model.

Therefore, one look should convince you;
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Tau-XV109-Y-Vahra-Battlesuit;jsessionid=C56B71C5E80A372637D76F84A4CF75BA?_requestid=18105438

I mean. Mmm. Ahh... Oooo.. shiny, no?

Razerous wrote:
Athestics - if you are trumping up large amounts of cash, you really want to love both the rules and the model.

Therefore, one look should convince you;
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Tau-XV109-Y-Vahra-Battlesuit;jsessionid=C56B71C5E80A372637D76F84A4CF75BA?_requestid=18105438

I mean. Mmm. Ahh... Oooo.. shiny, no?

His worry, and probably rightly, is that it would be TOO good to take often, for casual or fun play.

Didn't stop me from ordering one, mind you. :-p

I have the Ta'unar and it's a really nice model in every way. The yvara has super good rules but i find the design of the air intakes too "gothic-church"-like so no no for me .
Barracudas are nice but they don't produce them anymore so get som tetras maybe, besides Ta'unar/yvara.

when i proxied the y'vahra it jumped across the table turn 1 and instantly popped a Monolith without even batting an eye. Turn 2 it popped the other one sitting nearby, and turn 3 it jumped to the backfield and torched some Destroyers sitting in cover.

It killed more than 3x its cost in 3 turns. Hence why im kinda afraid its TOO good lol.

Try proxy it against some more armies before deciding, Eldar with multi WK, imperial knights etc.

It's unfortunate that the Tau'nar looks so much better than the Stormsurge. Open top!?!?!? What ere they thinking?!?!

SJ

X078 wrote:
Try proxy it against some more armies before deciding, Eldar with multi WK, imperial knights etc.

Actually i feel the Y'vahra would be weakest against Eldar because yea it has 3+D3 S8 AP3 attacks when he nova charges and 2 S6 AP2 flamer hits, but thats not amazing against T8 and its at 12" or closer. Hes bound to get charged, and even the one with the D cannons would eat him in melee.

Rvarna wouldnt pen the armor but at least he'd cause 6 hits at table range that wound on 4s.

I dont really consider either of them a viable option against WK. Then again, THAT player that fields 2-3 of them in a "casual" game i would be using the Ta'unar against and not feel like a dick. Ultimate cheese meets ultimate cheese lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:

X078 wrote:
Try proxy it against some more armies before deciding, Eldar with multi WK, imperial knights etc.

Actually i feel the Y'vahra would be weakest against Eldar because yea it has 3+D3 S8 AP3 attacks when he nova charges and 2 S6 AP2 flamer hits, but thats not amazing against T8 and its at 12" or closer. Hes bound to get charged, and even the one with the D cannons would eat him in melee.

Rvarna wouldnt pen the armor but at least he'd cause 6 hits at table range that wound on 4s.

I dont really consider either of them a viable option against WK. Then again, THAT player that fields 2-3 of them in a "casual" game i would be using the Ta'unar against and not feel like a dick. Ultimate cheese meets ultimate cheese lol

Yeah more 'typical' units like the GMC WK are more accepted, whilst the 4-wound Y'vahra is a t6 MC - just has a lot of very (short ranged) potent firepower, with lots of mobility.

Minor correction: the only people that find the WK acceptable are the people that field them. The rest of us know that they are 100-120 points undercosted.

SJ

As a Tau, Eldar & Tyranid player myself I actually don't mind the the Wraithknight or even multiple WK's. Them being good gives other armies a greater chance of recieving new awesome rules and units to compete further down the line.

Am I the only one here who actually enjoys the challenge of facing strong lists/units like that? Granted I play in a strong/competitive list environment at my store however ive never liked having the attitude of getting upset about something that I know im not going to be able to change.

 gmaleron wrote:
Am I the only one here who actually enjoys the challenge of facing strong lists/units like that? Granted I play in a strong/competitive list environment at my store however ive never liked having the attitude of getting upset about something that I know im not going to be able to change.

You are not alone, i love facing the most OP cheesefest possible, it just spurs me into enhancing my own lists and tactics further to the point i beat it. In fact i loathe facing the same tame lists again and again because it does not evolve my gaming.

X078 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Am I the only one here who actually enjoys the challenge of facing strong lists/units like that? Granted I play in a strong/competitive list environment at my store however ive never liked having the attitude of getting upset about something that I know im not going to be able to change.

You are not alone, i love facing the most OP cheesefest possible, it just spurs me into enhancing my own lists and tactics further to the point i beat it. In fact i loathe facing the same tame lists again and again because it does not evolve my gaming.

But having overpowered units promotes seeing the same lists more than having everything balanced.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

X078 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Am I the only one here who actually enjoys the challenge of facing strong lists/units like that? Granted I play in a strong/competitive list environment at my store however ive never liked having the attitude of getting upset about something that I know im not going to be able to change.

You are not alone, i love facing the most OP cheesefest possible, it just spurs me into enhancing my own lists and tactics further to the point i beat it. In fact i loathe facing the same tame lists again and again because it does not evolve my gaming.

But having overpowered units promotes seeing the same lists more than having everything balanced.

Until that OP list loses to another op list which yet again changes the meta. It's basically a choice of how many toys you want to play with. Do you want to have the freedom of choosing, buying and playing with everything available? Or do you settle for a selection that someone else choose for you, either way each will have their own meta.

I prefer playing my opponent, not their army. In the end, it does matter what they bring. What matters is how I go about making less mistakes with what I bring.

SJ

X078 wrote:
Do you want to have the freedom of choosing, buying and playing with everything available? Or do you settle for a selection that someone else choose for you, either way each will have their own meta.

If units were properly balanced for their points cost then everybody would have the freedom of choosing, buying and playing with everything available and having a fun game, without fracturing the player base.

As it is now there is little the Chaos Marine player can do to have any chance of winning against an Eldar player with multiple WK or scatter/spiderspam, short of playing a different army.

Big units which break the meta are only good when everyone gets access to them. As we've seen with the difference between the Eldar, SM, Necron and Tau codices compared to basically everything else, that is not the case.

For me, its about growing the hobby. Self indulgence is fine as far as it goes, and we all do it to some extent, but if I want newer players to be more interested in the hobby, the last thing that will get them there is the PERCEPTION that they simply can't afford to defeat me.

The thing to do as a Tau General, since that is the subject of this thread (ostensibly), is to build an army that can handle those things, without becoming one itself. I have a friend who went to LVO and he's been to some of my tournaments. He brought his Six Riptides and Drone factory list. I wished him luck of course and am happy he got to play with his big toys. But honestly i was disappointed that he did it.

He went 4-2 so he did well as one would expect, with a couple crushing victories and a couple times he got utterly crushed. I am glad he came out with a winning record. The whole team as a whole did well. I think a more fundamentally sound version of the same list might have served him better and maybe he will next year. These feast or famine affairs are not great though in that they don't just win, they tear a person in two in the games they win (as a rule). Yet lose just as badly. A more fundamentally sound list is a better list.

 Jancoran wrote:
For me, its about growing the hobby. Self indulgence is fine as far as it goes, and we all do it to some extent, but if I want newer players to be more interested in the hobby, the last thing that will get them there is the PERCEPTION that they simply can't afford to defeat me.

The thing to do as a Tau General, since that is the subject of this thread (ostensibly), is to build an army that can handle those things, without becoming one itself. I have a friend who went to LVO and he's been to some of my tournaments. He brought his Six Riptides and Drone factory list. I wished him luck of course and am happy he got to play with his big toys. But honestly i was disappointed that he did it.

He went 4-2 so he did well as one would expect, with a couple crushing victories and a couple times he got utterly crushed. I am glad he came out with a winning record. The whole team as a whole did well. I think a more fundamentally sound version of the same list might have served him better and maybe he will next year. These feast or famine affairs are not great though in that they don't just win, they tear a person in two in the games they win (as a rule). Yet lose just as badly. A more fundamentally sound list is a better list.

I wouldn't be disappointed in your friend. LVO, and other GTs are far from the place to be fluffy stewards of our great game. While it is tremendous when someone advances the meta (see last year's Lictorshame), most of the time it is about bringing the most cut-throat list possible. That isn't to say you shouldn't be a good sportsman, etc... but there is sadly no place for Firewarriors, or Hormgaunts, etc... at a GT right now.

I do feel what you are saying though. I am hyper competitive, however want to have fun, and ensure my opponents fun above all else. That has never been a problem before when playing my Grey Knights, or other fun armies, but Tau are the first army I have owned where I feel the need to restrain that little bit extra. If it means Pathfinders are my Markerlights for a while... so be it. I'll bring out the Y'vahra, etc... when my next real, seriously, event comes up.

Unless practicing for an event though, bringing a balls-out, optimized list for pick-up games just strikes me as uncool.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
For me, its about growing the hobby. Self indulgence is fine as far as it goes, and we all do it to some extent, but if I want newer players to be more interested in the hobby, the last thing that will get them there is the PERCEPTION that they simply can't afford to defeat me.

The thing to do as a Tau General, since that is the subject of this thread (ostensibly), is to build an army that can handle those things, without becoming one itself. I have a friend who went to LVO and he's been to some of my tournaments. He brought his Six Riptides and Drone factory list. I wished him luck of course and am happy he got to play with his big toys. But honestly i was disappointed that he did it.

He went 4-2 so he did well as one would expect, with a couple crushing victories and a couple times he got utterly crushed. I am glad he came out with a winning record. The whole team as a whole did well. I think a more fundamentally sound version of the same list might have served him better and maybe he will next year. These feast or famine affairs are not great though in that they don't just win, they tear a person in two in the games they win (as a rule). Yet lose just as badly. A more fundamentally sound list is a better list.

I wouldn't be disappointed in your friend. LVO, and other GTs are far from the place to be fluffy stewards of our great game. While it is tremendous when someone advances the meta (see last year's Lictorshame), most of the time it is about bringing the most cut-throat list possible. That isn't to say you shouldn't be a good sportsman, etc... but there is sadly no place for Firewarriors, or Hormgaunts, etc... at a GT right now.



I do feel what you are saying though. I am hyper competitive, however want to have fun, and ensure my opponents fun above all else. That has never been a problem before when playing my Grey Knights, or other fun armies, but Tau are the first army I have owned where I feel the need to restrain that little bit extra. If it means Pathfinders are my Markerlights for a while... so be it. I'll bring out the Y'vahra, etc... when my next real, seriously, event comes up.

Unless practicing for an event though, bringing a balls-out, optimized list for pick-up games just strikes me as uncool.

I don't know. I've been undefeated at big events and never have felt the need to do the netlist thing. Ask anyone who knows me this question: "Do Jancorans lists seem crazy to you?". See how many no's you get. It won't be many. Then ask them the second question: "Does he win?"

I have successfully proven though that you absolutely can go to a larger event and I'm not saying bring a cream puff list, but you can bring a list that does not APPEAR to be "one of those lists". And that's the goal. Because your opponent will at least have fun and look kindly on the experience of losing if they felt they were in it or if they got to face something different. If they never felt that way? I've had people act pretty morose at the table before. All they did all game was complain about power creep... while playing their 5E Blood Angels in 5E. Just saying. And my sportsmanship score gets affected. That almighty margin of victory became an albatross, not a help.

I also know how much I hated my first tournament win. I've always remembered it to this day, without much fondness because it was when the "massacre" scoring system was in place and you pretty much HAD to keep curb stomp people long after it was in good taste to do so in order to "get your massacre points".

I have found creativity and strategy to be my friends. I have placed skill as my paramount goal, and list building around strategy, instead of list building being my strategy. Plenty of people including my friend do not make that distinction but I do.

theres a difference between a challenge because the model in question, or unit, is just deadly as hell and flatout overpowered.

WK stats and guns are not overpowered at face value. T8 is a pain in the butt, but lack of a proper invul and sac'ing its D guns to get a 5++ and only 6 wounds makes it vastly "weaker" than other GMCs. However, its damn near HALF the cost of the other GMCs with -2 wounds and at best a only a 5++ which makes it spammable.
Biotitan has more wounds and +1T, but it has a 6++ and afaik cant get a better one. Cost? 1000pts base. WK is only slightly easier to kill than a Biotitan...slightly being no Regen rules and about half the wounds...for a third the flippin cost if not less.

Thats why i hate WKs and hate facing them. Its the only damn thing in the game outside apoc forgeworld (including my ta'unar) that i flatout despise facing because its broken as hell. In massive games, different story, 2k or less something that cheap for what it brings shouldnt exist. Even scatbikes can be countered if you know what youre doing. WK? Gravs....otherwise 2x the cost of the WK to kill it reliably and probably in a trade so you cant kill 2.

I like fielding fun and usually unorthodox lists. Enigmas like the WK with its T8 and GMC rules prevent this as i am forced to dump about half my army just in case i see one, which leaves me wide open for either boring lists or other counters. WK shouldnt be cheaper than the Stormsurge when the only durability difference is +2 wounds and a 4++...T6 can be hurt by anything while T8 dodges a great chunk of damage by default.
Im in the same boat as NewTruthNeomaxim that i'd rather fun for both players unless its tournament practice. I stopped bringing the Buffmander because of this and i feel ANY super shouldnt exist in a normal game unless agreed upon. Some people still ask if were using fliers and i dont consider them a debate anymore since fliers arent as insane as they used to be.
Of course, theres 2 Eldar players in my area and both of them refuse to leave the WK at home. So any time i face them i bring out the big guns and usually they try to give me flak for it. I just say "The day you stop fielding 2-3 WKs in a 2k game is the day i stop bringing buffmander + Stormsurge in a Hunter Cont. lists" and ive yet to see them take me on with that offer.
hell, i dont even remember the last time i fielded a Riptide, Broadside, or Buffmander except against said Eldar players.

Surprised that people actually play with 2 or 3 wraithknights. You either need that formation or triple CAD to get 3, the latter of which I feel is typically not allowed (and certainly isn't under the ITC rules, but LOW are also limited to 0-1 in those rules).

Have you tried just limiting the LOW choices to 0-1? I feel like that is a pretty reasonable thing, and I can't recall the last event I attended that allowed more than one.

Nope, cause typical Eldar players wont leave their WK at home. Theres a reason i tend to not play them much, they bring the same WK-spam list every time even if we list tailor to counter it just to piss them off that their almighty WK died.

Kinda part of the reason i have such a bad taste for Eldar players in general, its not just those 2 but theyre the main ones i come across. Before i moved to my current location, same crap, the Eldar player refused to leave behind whatever the most cheesiest thing they had at the time or at least not spam it. Used to be that gay as hell Council crap with reroll everything....or was that DE? been awhile since that was still a thing. Out of probably 15 different Eldar players ive ran across in a "friendly game" ive never faced a fun or fluffy eldar list, its always cheese spam.
Even marine players leave the gravs at home for friendly games.

The moment we try to say "No supers" to them, they bring up the ever-so-overdone arguement that "I didnt ask for it to be GMC and paid the money for 3 of them so im going to use them!"
....yeah shutup you just want to curbstomp because you dont like a challenge.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Nope, cause typical Eldar players wont leave their WK at home. Theres a reason i tend to not play them much, they bring the same WK-spam list every time even if we list tailor to counter it just to piss them off that their almighty WK died.

Kinda part of the reason i have such a bad taste for Eldar players in general, its not just those 2 but theyre the main ones i come across. Before i moved to my current location, same crap, the Eldar player refused to leave behind whatever the most cheesiest thing they had at the time or at least not spam it. Used to be that gay as hell Council crap with reroll everything....or was that DE? been awhile since that was still a thing. Out of probably 15 different Eldar players ive ran across in a "friendly game" ive never faced a fun or fluffy eldar list, its always cheese spam.
Even marine players leave the gravs at home for friendly games.

The moment we try to say "No supers" to them, they bring up the ever-so-overdone arguement that "I didnt ask for it to be GMC and paid the money for 3 of them so im going to use them!"
....yeah shutup you just want to curbstomp because you dont like a challenge.

Yo - avoid the gay as a derogatory term please

Sucks that you have to play people who refuse to play anything but crazy competitive lists. The big Eldar player at my FLGS is actually notorious for bringing the worst things Eldar has to offer (not saying much, I know) and making it work. Again, woe is him, I know. But he's bringing like Rangers, war walkers...I can't think of any other truly subpar Eldar units haha.

But truly, the nice thing about 40k is that it's a social contract. Just play someone else if some dude brings 3 wraithknights and you don't want to deal with that. I get that they want to use those models, but I leave An'ggrath for use in apocalypse games, where he belongs. The same should be said of 3 gargantuan monstrous creatures at 1850-2000 points.

It's true, though, that you can just bring the D to wipe them off the table. Eventually, you're going to roll that 6. And the stormsurge has a lot of missiles that can be strength D. Toss in a VSG for alpha protection if they have the D and pretty soon they won't want to bring that many wraithknights.



Question on Tau tactics though - how do you guys feel about ghostkeels outside of the Optimized Stealth Cadre? I was putting together a list and didn't have enough points for the whole Cadre, but I do have enough points for 3 ghostkeels. I know a lot of it has to do with the rest of the list, which is basically a maxed out OSC (min stealth suits w/fusion though), a stormsurge, drone commander with a squad of drones and some troops to fill out the CAD.

Also debating whether access to iridium armor is worth paying a bunch more (46 points minus the weapons, so likely 36), as opposed to having less durable commander and drone squad, but a FSE detachment, which would grant obsec deep striking solo suits.