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Nice! What weapon breakdown did you use in the bomb? Perhaps more fusion in the future?

What is the best form of ap 2?

Crisis suits with plasma rifles
Riptide with ion and plasma rifle
XV109 riptide with plasma flamer
Or Something Else

I tend to lend towards the normal riptide but for the same amount of points how manx crisis suits with plasma riffles can you get, idk what do you guys think?

I mean; the Y'Vahra is the best. Question is, will it still be in a month?

Crisis bomb is fun but not competitive. There are too many things that can destroy it. Even a not competitive list can destroy crisis bomb in one turn. 2+ cover safe is over rated when many army can have devastating weapons that ignores cover. taking no EWO on that bomb is asking for trouble when many list now and in the future can assault on the turn they arrive.

I have tried many list for tournaments and i found that Hunter contingent MSU is by far the strongest tau list. For Tau, MSU is an absolute must considering how low the ld is and having opponents preferring to use deaths start against tau to get into cc. Also, out psychic defense is non existence. A tau death star would be too vulnerable to psychic. With the current meta, psychic power is the key to most competitive non tau list.

Anything below 10 marker sources is also non competitive. My hunter contingent use 24 marker source and even that may not be enough at certain tournaments, i.e. against invisible death star. I don't use collexus since it destroys the game sense. no collexus in 40K will ever agree to help xenos. The key to tau list is suitability and removing your opponents key pillars. Every list has a weakness, study their weakness and remove it from play. Many tau players prefer crisis due to their fire power, but to me crisis is a horrible unit if they are not deployed as single model troops with obsec. Their survivability is too low in many cases, relying on deep strike too often to get in range and having to use deaths star formation to be effective. Its never about maximising fire power, its about precision and quality of fire power to remove key pillars.

Of course if your excuse to not play hunter contingent is about being too boring of a gunline list then ignore what i wrote above. After all having fun is much more important than winning.

I somewhat agree with your main point that Crisis bombs probably are not the most competitive choice, but I do think they're very scary to face. They fare well against many popular deathstars but definitely fall flat against White Scars grav Centurions and their silly cover ignoring. Taking EWO on the bomb is pretty difficult and can limit your options substantially due to the loss of target locks. On my bomb, in particular, it's not even on the radar since the marker lights will be shooting at the primary target, while the suits (probably) go after something else. It's definitely true that a Crisis bomb can't deal with psychic-buffed deathstars very well, but that's true of pretty much any Tau list. Hence the Culexus, which is actually a nice desperation counter-charge unit, I might add. Fluff...meh. I did see the power of the individual suits, though, and I intend to keep using them. Dropping a bunch of flamers on people is a really nice bonus.

As for the marker sources issue, it seems that most competitive players disagree with you. Most lists I've seen from recent large-scale tournaments relied on either a Mark'o and 6-8 drones or a minimal Drone Net of 16 Drones. My list has 9 BS 10 drones, I find that more than sufficient for 2 Stormsurges.

I may revisit a MSU Hunter Contingent, but it honestly seems inferior to a CAD with formation support.

 The Shrike wrote:
Nice! What weapon breakdown did you use in the bomb? Perhaps more fusion in the future?

I wanted to give the CIB a go, so all 7 suits had 2 of them. I think with 1 Surge, that's a little light on heavy-target busting, but with 2 sets of D missiles racked and ready, I actually think that's going to be a decent configuration. I'll give it a try and let you know!

MilkmanAl wrote:

Crisis bomb is fun but not competitive. There are too many things that can destroy it. Even a not competitive list can destroy crisis bomb in one turn. 2+ cover safe is over rated when many army can have devastating weapons that ignores cover. taking no EWO on that bomb is asking for trouble when many list now and in the future can assault on the turn they arrive.

I have tried many list for tournaments and i found that Hunter contingent MSU is by far the strongest tau list. For Tau, MSU is an absolute must considering how low the ld is and having opponents preferring to use deaths start against tau to get into cc. Also, out psychic defense is non existence. A tau death star would be too vulnerable to psychic. With the current meta, psychic power is the key to most competitive non tau list.

Anything below 10 marker sources is also non competitive. My hunter contingent use 24 marker source and even that may not be enough at certain tournaments, i.e. against invisible death star. I don't use collexus since it destroys the game sense. no collexus in 40K will ever agree to help xenos. The key to tau list is suitability and removing your opponents key pillars. Every list has a weakness, study their weakness and remove it from play. Many tau players prefer crisis due to their fire power, but to me crisis is a horrible unit if they are not deployed as single model troops with obsec. Their survivability is too low in many cases, relying on deep strike too often to get in range and having to use deaths star formation to be effective. Its never about maximising fire power, its about precision and quality of fire power to remove key pillars.

Of course if your excuse to not play hunter contingent is about being too boring of a gunline list then ignore what i wrote above. After all having fun is much more important than winning.

I somewhat agree with your main point that Crisis bombs probably are not the most competitive choice, but I do think they're very scary to face. They fare well against many popular deathstars but definitely fall flat against White Scars grav Centurions and their silly cover ignoring. Taking EWO on the bomb is pretty difficult and can limit your options substantially due to the loss of target locks. On my bomb, in particular, it's not even on the radar since the marker lights will be shooting at the primary target, while the suits (probably) go after something else. It's definitely true that a Crisis bomb can't deal with psychic-buffed deathstars very well, but that's true of pretty much any Tau list. Hence the Culexus, which is actually a nice desperation counter-charge unit, I might add. Fluff...meh. I did see the power of the individual suits, though, and I intend to keep using them. Dropping a bunch of flamers on people is a really nice bonus.

As for the marker sources issue, it seems that most competitive players disagree with you. Most lists I've seen from recent large-scale tournaments relied on either a Mark'o and 6-8 drones or a minimal Drone Net of 16 Drones. My list has 9 BS 10 drones, I find that more than sufficient for 2 Stormsurges.

I may revisit a MSU Hunter Contingent, but it honestly seems inferior to a CAD with formation support.

 The Shrike wrote:
Nice! What weapon breakdown did you use in the bomb? Perhaps more fusion in the future?

I wanted to give the CIB a go, so all 7 suits had 2 of them. I think with 1 Surge, that's a little light on heavy-target busting, but with 2 sets of D missiles racked and ready, I actually think that's going to be a decent configuration. I'll give it a try and let you know!

Crisis bomb is not scary at all to face for most competitive list. A tau list would have evaporated the bomb with intercepting marker lights and EWO units, Superfriend will laugh and charge the next turn, same with necrons list. Eldar will make the ds zone so unappealing that you are forced to drop to a less optimal zone where most of their core unit is out of your reach. DS means you put a huge amount of fire power on reserve and not attacking first turn. A tau army perform strongest during first two turn. If you cannot eliminate the enemy's pillar by the end of the second turn than the chance of loosing is very very high. With hunter cadre, if i go first, my opponents usually shake my hand on turn two or three after they realize that their army no longer has a core.

regarding the drones, I use 24 drones with mark'o as well. sometimes i use the drone net formation sometimes i don't depending on what i list i forecast the tournament player will bring. 10 drones is just too easy to neutralize for eldar list on their first turn and the other armies can do so on their second turn. Too little drones if you bring stormsurge which need at least 7-8 marker counter to maximize effectiveness of d weapons on first turn. With the trend moving towards assault on arrival, the need for intercepting marker drones is even more important than ever which makes the minimal drone count for future tau list to be at least 16 due to minimal drone net formation requirement. I have had games that i went second and opponent taking out half of my drones which includes killing my mark'o when i was unable to hide him behind los blocking terrain. Mark'o with multiple drones has a big footprint and would not fit in most los blocking cover. multiple unit of four drones on the other hand are fairly easy to hide behind los blocking terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
colexus assasins is a good distraction for competitive opponents. But there are many ways to prevent the assassin from getting into 12 inch range from the psyker. I would rather put the points on marker drones since there are some list that makes the assassin less than useful where else marker drone is always useful no matter what list you are facing.

Who said anything about deep striking the bomb? As you mentioned, deep striking has more than its share of problems for a unit that large, and with Shadowsun at the helm, the unit is more than fast enough to get where it needs to be. There's no reason to forfeit a turn (or more) of ~700 pts of shooting.

10 drones are easy to neutralize on their own, but when they're tanked for by a buffmander, that changes a lot. The cover save doesn't hurt, either. I agree about intercepting marker lights, though. That's tough to give up.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Who said anything about deep striking the bomb? As you mentioned, deep striking has more than its share of problems for a unit that large, and with Shadowsun at the helm, the unit is more than fast enough to get where it needs to be. There's no reason to forfeit a turn (or more) of ~700 pts of shooting.

10 drones are easy to neutralize on their own, but when they're tanked for by a buffmander, that changes a lot. The cover save doesn't hurt, either. I agree about intercepting marker lights, though. That's tough to give up.

Regarding the drones...a buffmander with iridium, feel no pain and energy shield is an extra 90 points. For 90 points you can field extra 6-7 drones which i personally prefer because those drone can be deployed in no LOS zone, helps with MSU and will result in more marker hits. That extra drones may result in one or two extra hit when lighting up invisible superfriend which can make a lot of difference when you can share that with the whole tau army to shoot at the death star. I keep my commander unit as small and cheap as possible since he is ussually a favorite target for experienced players. Small unit means its easier to hide and my army will not be significantly effected by the loss of the commander unit. MSU is the way to go in the current meta....especially for tau army with low ld and no psykic defense.

Starting on the table is as dangerous as deep striking for the crisis bomb. Only the commander can tank damage at a very expensive cost and even then not immune to s10 weaponry. An s10 pie plate will wipe out the crisis bomb in one or two turns. Also, shadowsun are not able to deploy with the crisis bomb during deployment, which means the crisis bomb will hve to rely on normal cover safe if they go second. Very risky to put so much point in such a fragile unit that does not have top line defense against psykic and shooting. Starting on the table also means that you are most likely to be out of range to fire your high ap fusion and plasma during the first turn, which again waste the first two most critical turn for tau player to destroy the enemy's pillar units.

What i am trying to say is that people play crisis bomb for fun and fluff...and make friends. But for competitive players, then the crisis bomb is too unreliable and a risky asset for tournament play.

Given that I'm taking a buffmander anyway (and don't have a shield generator on him), it's actually an extra 40 pts for iridium and FNP. Now, if you want to question the value of taking a 195pt model that does nothing but tank and force multiply, that's a different story, but those two upgrades are definitely worth the cost, in this scenario. I'd get 3 more drones - basically 3 more marker hits - for the cost. Since the only things in the list that need markers are the 2 Surges, I don't know that 12 marker hits is necessary. More drones would be nice, but I feel like the list is already reasonably bare-bones. Most of the upgrades are essential, and cutting suits for drones is inadvisable, given that you either cripple your ability to claim objectives or make your 330pt bomb investment of Shadowsun and buffmander less worthwhile. Sharing marker buffs with the whole army is irrelevant because the Stormsurges ARE the entire army. The bomb doesn't need marker lights.

I don't disagree that MSU is a strong list structure for Tau and perhaps the strongest. However, I think this list is potentially competitive, as well.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Given that I'm taking a buffmander anyway (and don't have a shield generator on him), it's actually an extra 40 pts for iridium and FNP. Now, if you want to question the value of taking a 195pt model that does nothing but tank and force multiply, that's a different story, but those two upgrades are definitely worth the cost, in this scenario. I'd get 3 more drones - basically 3 more marker hits - for the cost. Since the only things in the list that need markers are the 2 Surges, I don't know that 12 marker hits is necessary. More drones would be nice, but I feel like the list is already reasonably bare-bones. Most of the upgrades are essential, and cutting suits for drones is inadvisable, given that you either cripple your ability to claim objectives or make your 330pt bomb investment of Shadowsun and buffmander less worthwhile. Sharing marker buffs with the whole army is irrelevant because the Stormsurges ARE the entire army. The bomb doesn't need marker lights.

I don't disagree that MSU is a strong list structure for Tau and perhaps the strongest. However, I think this list is potentially competitive, as well.

How are you going to fight an invisible superfriend or IK formation list with your list? Or how are you going to fight a Tau hunter contingent list with your list?
Those list are made to shred big units.

A Tau mirror match would definitely be bad for this list. There's entirely too much cover-ignoring stuff, and Stormsurges are the only source of S10 pie plates I can imagine running into with any regularity. Nobody uses Demolishers or Vindicators. If they get the jump on your bomb, you're probably down for the count. That said, everything in the list can target different units with ease, so MSU really isn't a problem. The bomb can reliably wipe just under a unit of Tau per suit per turn with CIBs, assuming you're in range of that many targets, so if you get the chance, you can dish some hurt in a hurry.

Superfriends still isn't a great matchup but isn't as scary. You obviously need to either go first or use the Culexus, but without psychic buffs, the opposing deathstar is in bad shape. You're going to dump a fair amount of wounds into them from the bomb alone (probably around 7-9, depending on what you arm the bomb with) and can kite them fairly effectively with your 18" range and 3d6 assault move. The stormsurges aren't as mobile, but having them in melee stomping away isn't the worst use for them I can think of.

 The Shrike wrote:
I mean; the Y'Vahra is the best. Question is, will it still be in a month?

Whats happening in a month? I apologize for being out of the loop but as a Commander I focus on battles. I am not a member of the earth caste if you would please enlighten me.

The Debate between Commander MilkmanAi and Turtlesoup was/is amazing, but I give the edge to Turtlesoup. First off that doesn't mean MilkmanAI lost as in most good debates both people are right but it is a matter of preference or who is correct at the current time. Example is it right to use an atom bomb on a country most of us will say no but there are some of us who knows that if the conditions are right than yes, but thats another debate!

MilkmanAl wrote:
A Tau mirror match would definitely be bad for this list. There's entirely too much cover-ignoring stuff, and Stormsurges are the only source of S10 pie plates I can imagine running into with any regularity. Nobody uses Demolishers or Vindicators. If they get the jump on your bomb, you're probably down for the count. That said, everything in the list can target different units with ease, so MSU really isn't a problem. The bomb can reliably wipe just under a unit of Tau per suit per turn with CIBs, assuming you're in range of that many targets, so if you get the chance, you can dish some hurt in a hurry.

You start off by saying turtlesoup is right, also in the competitive scene there are things that are just as effective as str 10. Str 10 just flat out gets the job done or you can use law of averages which is force so many saves that you roll 1s. Example scat bikes and warp spiders all hit on 3's or 2's and wounds on 2's some of those wounds are ap 2 and because of the speed of those units you can't tank them properly because the short range of your weapons requires at least 24 inches. Str 10 is everywhere you have str 10 thunder hammers on wolves, you have str d melee attacks from the wraithknight, you have str d warp hunters who can use barrage to ignore your commander's tanking ability, hell the space marine whirlwind that shoots str 8 ap 3 ignore barrage cover shots is scary to the crisis bomb. Yes, the bomb can dish it out but in the current meta it cannot take it and a non-eternal warrior commander is not tough enough!

MilkmanAl wrote:
still isn't a great matchup but isn't as scary. You obviously need to either go first or use the Culexus, but without psychic buffs, the opposing deathstar is in bad shape. You're going to dump a fair amount of wounds into them from the bomb alone (probably around 7-9, depending on what you arm the bomb with) and can kite them fairly effectively with your 18" range and 3d6 assault move. The stormsurges aren't as mobile, but having them in melee stomping away isn't the worst use for them I can think of.

Great points again but you admit in the opening sentence that its not a great match up. Against deathstars we as tau smile unless its that damn chapter master with 2+ feel no pain save than we have a problem! However its just one man on a bike how much damage can he do? Well the answer to a msu list is not much he can only kill 1 or 2 units a turn if you spread out appropriately you should be okay. Meanwhile like soup said we dismantle the rest of his list leaving only his chapter master and the squad he is with but unfortunately for him they can't kill stuff and claim objectives as well. So creating a deathstar to deal with a deathstar with Tau is a trap in my opinion because their deathstars can have psychic buffs. Which is the reason why you bring the assassin excellent list just have some holes but in the world where tau use culexus assassins its impossible not to have matchup problems.

I learned a lot from that conversation don't mind me keep it going I can learn more! Shas'o Emerica Kenpachi is about to drop his list, I request the help of both of you guys because both of you know what the hell your talking about anyway I am out!

I'm not trying to say this is the best list ever. It pretty clearly has huge, glaring flaws. As noted previously, White Scars Grav Cents are basically a hard counter, and more mainstream Tau lists aren't far behind. On the other hand, it's pretty damn good against Eldar and Gladius and, I think, at least serviceable against Thunderwolves and superfriends. Most of what I'm saying is that his suggestions aren't relevant to this list. I'm aware this probably isn't the most dominant choice for a Tau army, but it's fun and can compete with a lot of the heavy hitters out there.

Not to nitpick, but I think you overestimate the awesomeness of S10 melee against this list, simply because if your bomb gets in combat with a nasty melee unit, you've basically already lost. Yeah, you have hit and run, but that assumes your Commander lives through the massive beatdown you're going to endure before even getting the chance to run. In other words, of course S10 thunder hammers are going to wreck your world. You're Tau.

MilkmanAl wrote:

Crisis bomb is fun but not competitive. There are too many things that can destroy it. Even a not competitive list can destroy crisis bomb in one turn. 2+ cover safe is over rated when many army can have devastating weapons that ignores cover. taking no EWO on that bomb is asking for trouble when many list now and in the future can assault on the turn they arrive.

I have tried many list for tournaments and i found that Hunter contingent MSU is by far the strongest tau list. For Tau, MSU is an absolute must considering how low the ld is and having opponents preferring to use deaths start against tau to get into cc. Also, out psychic defense is non existence. A tau death star would be too vulnerable to psychic. With the current meta, psychic power is the key to most competitive non tau list.

Anything below 10 marker sources is also non competitive. My hunter contingent use 24 marker source and even that may not be enough at certain tournaments, i.e. against invisible death star. I don't use collexus since it destroys the game sense. no collexus in 40K will ever agree to help xenos. The key to tau list is suitability and removing your opponents key pillars. Every list has a weakness, study their weakness and remove it from play. Many tau players prefer crisis due to their fire power, but to me crisis is a horrible unit if they are not deployed as single model troops with obsec. Their survivability is too low in many cases, relying on deep strike too often to get in range and having to use deaths star formation to be effective. Its never about maximising fire power, its about precision and quality of fire power to remove key pillars.

Of course if your excuse to not play hunter contingent is about being too boring of a gunline list then ignore what i wrote above. After all having fun is much more important than winning.

I somewhat agree with your main point that Crisis bombs probably are not the most competitive choice, but I do think they're very scary to face. They fare well against many popular deathstars but definitely fall flat against White Scars grav Centurions and their silly cover ignoring. Taking EWO on the bomb is pretty difficult and can limit your options substantially due to the loss of target locks. On my bomb, in particular, it's not even on the radar since the marker lights will be shooting at the primary target, while the suits (probably) go after something else. It's definitely true that a Crisis bomb can't deal with psychic-buffed deathstars very well, but that's true of pretty much any Tau list. Hence the Culexus, which is actually a nice desperation counter-charge unit, I might add. Fluff...meh. I did see the power of the individual suits, though, and I intend to keep using them. Dropping a bunch of flamers on people is a really nice bonus.

As for the marker sources issue, it seems that most competitive players disagree with you. Most lists I've seen from recent large-scale tournaments relied on either a Mark'o and 6-8 drones or a minimal Drone Net of 16 Drones. My list has 9 BS 10 drones, I find that more than sufficient for 2 Stormsurges.

I may revisit a MSU Hunter Contingent, but it honestly seems inferior to a CAD with formation support.

 The Shrike wrote:
Nice! What weapon breakdown did you use in the bomb? Perhaps more fusion in the future?

I wanted to give the CIB a go, so all 7 suits had 2 of them. I think with 1 Surge, that's a little light on heavy-target busting, but with 2 sets of D missiles racked and ready, I actually think that's going to be a decent configuration. I'll give it a try and let you know!

I beg to differ. Look at the ITC standings. Jeremy V uses a Crisis bomb and has done anything but poorly with it. others have too. I think its the size of the bomb that becomes more debatable than its actual advisability.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Not to nitpick, but I think you overestimate the awesomeness of S10 melee against this list, simply because if your bomb gets in combat with a nasty melee unit, you've basically already lost. Yeah, you have hit and run, but that assumes your Commander lives through the massive beatdown you're going to endure before even getting the chance to run. In other words, of course S10 thunder hammers are going to wreck your world. You're Tau.

I had to read this a couple times to get it, I am a little slow! I hope you are right! I really want to believe that I don't have to worry about str 10 melee because I am recovering from concussions from thunder hammers as we speak!

How many turns do you usually have at shooting these str 10 melee units?

Thunderwolves and bikes usually are on you by turn 2! I am not afraid of them as we have the Greater Good on our side but to simply pretend like it is easily accomplish seems silly to me. I like numbers and I am trying to understand how without the power of a 6 on a d missile or stomp you are dealing with 2+ feel no pain save. I know I am not using the str 10 ap 2 stormsurge is that what you are using and why you have so much confidence against the melee units? Or is it because you use the assassin and can by pass all of the psychic buffs? With the list I am making I fear the 2+ feel no pain chapter master, thunder wolves not as much but if I don't get a 6 that chapter master is going to be on the board for 5-6 turns or however long the game last because statically speaking that thing is a true MARINE!

If they're going directly after your Crisis bomb, you've probably got 2 turns of kiting before they catch you. If they aren't buffed, that's enough time to whittle them down substantially, but even 2-3 surviving Thunderwolves/bike characters/whatever are plenty to essentially wipe your bomb. That's when you start throwing speed bumps in the way as much as you can and maybe even charge your Storsurge(s) in to save the day. Nobody's saying it's easy to do, merely that's what you have to do to live.

I beg to differ. Look at the ITC standings. Jeremy V uses a Crisis bomb and has done anything but poorly with it. others have too. I think its the size of the bomb that becomes more debatable than its actual advisability.

Erm...did you quote the wrong post? I'm totally on board with the Crisis bomb as a viable competitive option. On a loosely-related note, this thread has me conjuring a MSU list using the Infiltration Cadre that'd make you need to change your shorts. I'm admittedly still very skeptical of that formation, but I'm willing to try it out!

edit: Aaaaaand so far it looks something like this:

Hunter Contingent
Hunter Cadre
Commander – drone controller, target lock, 2 missile pods - 128
Cadre Fireblade – 60
10 Fire Warriors – 90
2x5 Fire Warriors - 90
3x10 Kroot – sniper rounds – 210
Crisis suit – 2 fusions – 52
4 Pathfinders – 3 rail rifles - 89
Stormsurge – shield gen, AFP, EWO, VT – 440

Infiltration Cadre
3x4 Pathfinders – 3 rail rifles – 267
2x3 Stealth Suits – 1 fusion, positional relay – 200
Piranha – fusion – 50

Drone Net
4x4 Marker Drones - 224

That's 1900 points, so 50 points need to come out. I could ditch the Fireblade, but under the circumstances, it's definitely nice to have another run/shoot bubble to work with. The double-tap is a nifty bonus, too. I feel like this list is horribly optimized with tons of units I'd pretty much never otherwise use, so someone help me out with the details! I'm a pretty huge fan of the ridiculous tactical flexibility, so this list or whatever it evolves into will probably be something I fool around with at least a little.

MilkmanAl wrote:
A Tau mirror match would definitely be bad for this list. There's entirely too much cover-ignoring stuff, and Stormsurges are the only source of S10 pie plates I can imagine running into with any regularity. Nobody uses Demolishers or Vindicators. If they get the jump on your bomb, you're probably down for the count. That said, everything in the list can target different units with ease, so MSU really isn't a problem. The bomb can reliably wipe just under a unit of Tau per suit per turn with CIBs, assuming you're in range of that many targets, so if you get the chance, you can dish some hurt in a hurry.

Superfriends still isn't a great matchup but isn't as scary. You obviously need to either go first or use the Culexus, but without psychic buffs, the opposing deathstar is in bad shape. You're going to dump a fair amount of wounds into them from the bomb alone (probably around 7-9, depending on what you arm the bomb with) and can kite them fairly effectively with your 18" range and 3d6 assault move. The stormsurges aren't as mobile, but having them in melee stomping away isn't the worst use for them I can think of.

A good list is a list that can handle all competitive list. In a tournament you don't get to choose which list to fight. In my opinion, a good tau list should have the following ability:

1) Surgical strike on turn 1 or at the latest turn 2 to topple enemy's pillar unit. This is where lots of marker light and long distance shooting (and to certain extend, homing missiles for pesky no LOS unit) are needed. This must be done in the first two turn or else our list, especially marker light will die quickly after turn 2. Accuracy and quality of firepower is much more important than firepower saturation, e.g. this is where an Ion tide is much more useful than burst tide.

2) Resilience. This is where MSU and hunter contingent combo solve the problem. This is also the reason why i use at least 20-24 msu marker light sources. MSU and number is the best protection for TAU. You do not need to worry too much about ld, the odd unit that made it into cc and going second.

A good Tau player should exhibit the following characteristic:

1) High strategic acumen: From list building to tactical play, A tau player must be able to build strategically sound list. Be able to look at opponent's list and identify his pillar units (may it be a lowly troops to a scary deathstar). Unlike necron or marine list, a tau list does not have room for mistakes. What seems to be a minor flaw in a list or analysis can result in a total loss for tau player. Our army is not capable of deploying strong pillars

2) Methodical tactical execution: This is mostly about following your pre game analysis and choosing the target priorities in your shooting phase. Target elimination is more important than maximizing damage dealt which mean that you should not be afraid to overkill a unit if that unit is on your top priority list. Sounds easy? but this is in fact a hard thing to do during gameplay due to timing pressure and carelessness. In one gameplay, I usually identified no less than 10 mistakes made by both side. Discipline and focus is a difficult skill to master.

After making a list, ask yourself if your list can handle an IK formation composing of at least 3-4 IK with 3++ invulnerable save. Why IK? because personally that is the list that gave most tournament TAU list a hardtime to fight. Fighting IK will force your list to be mobile, have good MSU and also high surgical strike capability and resilient army. TAU list can of course be configured to kill 4 IK rather easily and that is not the point of this simulation. The goal is to have a tournament all comer list that still can fight 4IK reasonably well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MilkmanAl wrote:
If they're going directly after your Crisis bomb, you've probably got 2 turns of kiting before they catch you. If they aren't buffed, that's enough time to whittle them down substantially, but even 2-3 surviving Thunderwolves/bike characters/whatever are plenty to essentially wipe your bomb. That's when you start throwing speed bumps in the way as much as you can and maybe even charge your Storsurge(s) in to save the day. Nobody's saying it's easy to do, merely that's what you have to do to live.

I beg to differ. Look at the ITC standings. Jeremy V uses a Crisis bomb and has done anything but poorly with it. others have too. I think its the size of the bomb that becomes more debatable than its actual advisability.

Erm...did you quote the wrong post? I'm totally on board with the Crisis bomb as a viable competitive option. On a loosely-related note, this thread has me conjuring a MSU list using the Infiltration Cadre that'd make you need to change your shorts. I'm admittedly still very skeptical of that formation, but I'm willing to try it out!

edit: Aaaaaand so far it looks something like this:

Hunter Contingent
Hunter Cadre
Commander – drone controller, target lock, 2 missile pods - 128
Cadre Fireblade – 60
10 Fire Warriors – 90
2x5 Fire Warriors - 90
3x10 Kroot – sniper rounds – 210
Crisis suit – 2 fusions – 52
4 Pathfinders – 3 rail rifles - 89
Stormsurge – shield gen, AFP, EWO, VT – 440

Infiltration Cadre
3x4 Pathfinders – 3 rail rifles – 267
2x3 Stealth Suits – 1 fusion, positional relay – 200
Piranha – fusion – 50

Drone Net
4x4 Marker Drones - 224

That's 1900 points, so 50 points need to come out. I could ditch the Fireblade, but under the circumstances, it's definitely nice to have another run/shoot bubble to work with. The double-tap is a nifty bonus, too. I feel like this list is horribly optimized with tons of units I'd pretty much never otherwise use, so someone help me out with the details! I'm a pretty huge fan of the ridiculous tactical flexibility, so this list or whatever it evolves into will probably be something I fool around with at least a little.

The MSU amount is good but this list lacks resilience and surgical strike capability. 30 inch kill range is too short for most surgical strikes. Resilience wise, any opponent's unit shooting at your pathfinders will likely cause it to run or get wiped out entirely, loosing quite a significant proportion of fire power. An army composed entirely of glass canons are no fun to play because it will all be over by turn 3. I suggest you add at least an ethereal in the list to make your infantry less likely to run away. That will make a fun and situational list to play but no where near competitive.

I've heard it said that a competitive Tau list needs to have at least 2-3 of the following: Stormsurges, Y'vahras, Riptide Wing, Drone Net, and Optimized Stealth Cadre. I'm not sure if that's true or not, but in my experience it seems to hold up. Stormsurges are great for providing heavy firepower, Y'vahras are good for assassinating certain key units, Riptide Wing brings lots of firepower, especially on the turn that they pop their Hailfire, Drone Net provides much-needed reliable markerlight support (with Interceptor), and OSC can absolutely wreck any kind of mechanized list or anything that relies on cover saves (looking at you Tyranids, Dark Eldar).

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I've heard it said that a competitive Tau list needs to have at least 2-3 of the following: Stormsurges, Y'vahras, Riptide Wing, Drone Net, and Optimized Stealth Cadre. I'm not sure if that's true or not, but in my experience it seems to hold up. Stormsurges are great for providing heavy firepower, Y'vahras are good for assassinating certain key units, Riptide Wing brings lots of firepower, especially on the turn that they pop their Hailfire, Drone Net provides much-needed reliable markerlight support (with Interceptor), and OSC can absolutely wreck any kind of mechanized list or anything that relies on cover saves (looking at you Tyranids, Dark Eldar).

Some of those units are in fact components of most competitive list. I would put stormsurge, riptide and drone net as the essential. I don't necessarily agree with riptide wing, Y,vahras and OSC. For Y'vahra I have no comment as i am not a forgeworld unit fan and have never used it before. For riptide wing, I still prefer riptide as part of firebase support cadre for the tank hunter and monster hunter bonus. Riptide being part of hunter contingent is much more useful for surgical strikes and absolutely critical against invisible death star. Stormsurge advantage is its durability and the s10 ap2 long range pie plates. In my games, the d missiles are underperforming most of the time. The OSC's job can be easily replaced by hunter contingent. OSC cost too much, range is too short and too easily neutralized by s10 weaponry. With the trend of assault during arrival, i believe only the drone net formation is an absolute must for tau army no matter how you play tau, because no tau list will stand against cc without huge cost incurred.

I've got a few thoughts on the comments above, but first I'm really curious as to what your list consists of. Would you mind sharing?

Hunter Contingent + drone net vx 1-0 - 1850pts

Hunter Cadre

Commander - 113pts
Drone controller, command and control node, counter-fire defense system

Striker x 5 - 45pts
Striker x 5 - 45pts
Striker x 5 - 45pts

Riptide - 190pts
Heavy burst cannon, tl smart missile system, EWO, counter-fire defense system

Stormsurge - 405pts
Pulse driver cannon, tl burst cannon, velocity tracker, EWO

Marker Drone x4 - 56pts

Auxiliary

Firebase support cadre

Riptide - 195pts
Ion Accelerator, tl smart missile system, EWO, counter-fire defense system

Broadside - 70pts
HYMP, tl smart missile system, EWO

Broadside - 70pts
HYMP, tl smart missile system, EWO

Firebase support cadre

Riptide - 195pts
Ion Accelerator, tl smart missile system, EWO, counter-fire defense system

Broadside - 70pts
HYMP, tl smart missile system, EWO

Broadside - 70pts
HYMP, tl smart missile system, EWO

Formation

Drone net vx 1-0

Marker drone x5 - 70pts
Marker drone x5 - 70pts
Marker drone x5 - 70pts
Marker drone x5 - 70pts

My list is a very plain hunter contingent list that have a balanced amount of fire power saturation, surgical strike capability and some counter assault capabilities. Commander will always go with the drone net drones and acts as marker light dispenser. Riptides are the main source of mobility to take midfield objectives as well as surgical strikes, strikers are assault screening units, broadsides provides firepower saturation and stormsurge as the surgical strike pillar and anti-air units. All of my models except for the 4 drones and 15 strikers can intercept. 17 units provides descent MSU with no obvious pillars （closest being the markers and stormsurge). Other than strikers and drones, the units responsible for dispensing fire power are generally durable and will not run due to shooting attacks, which provide a reliable and stable gunline. The odd opponent units that is able to make it into assault will face many units overwatch at higher than normal bs. Anti air is primarily the stormsurge providing s10 ap2 pie plates and many s5 hits supported by marker drones that reroll snapshots. The list has decent monster and vehicle fighting capability from the 2 firebase cadre formation. The only weakness to this list is a mirror list.

For what it is worth, from glancing at the Tau ETC lists, Piranha Wing, Riptide Wing, Drone net, Farsight CAD, some mixture of those & a culexus were the common denominators.

In the ITC, i've read that the crisis star & OSC have had success.

I use the OSC & Crisis star more often then not when running Tau, i've had some trouble vs some Eldar & Marine builds, aside from that, I don't think other codexes would regard it as friendly really!

 Bryan01 wrote:
For what it is worth, from glancing at the Tau ETC lists, Piranha Wing, Riptide Wing, Drone net, Farsight CAD, some mixture of those & a culexus were the common denominators.

In the ITC, i've read that the crisis star & OSC have had success.

I use the OSC & Crisis star more often then not when running Tau, i've had some trouble vs some Eldar & Marine builds, aside from that, I don't think other codexes would regard it as friendly really!

OSC is viable and fills its niche if complimented with long range gunlines. OSC is not a good complement to crisis star because both has short range and will have trouble executing precision strikes across the board. Both relies on too much cover save for survivability. OSC, riptide wing + drone net will complement better.

The MSU amount is good but this list lacks resilience and surgical strike capability. 30 inch kill range is too short for most surgical strikes. Resilience wise, any opponent's unit shooting at your pathfinders will likely cause it to run or get wiped out entirely, loosing quite a significant proportion of fire power. An army composed entirely of glass canons are no fun to play because it will all be over by turn 3. I suggest you add at least an ethereal in the list to make your infantry less likely to run away. That will make a fun and situational list to play but no where near competitive.

Agreed on everything except the surgical strike comment. While the list I posted may not be the biggest powerhouse ever to grace the Warhammer community, the one thing it does exceedingly well is surgical strikes. With moderately quick units roaming all over the board and the potential for half of them to come on from any board edge, you can target pretty much anything you want at any time. You may not be able to kill it if it's something gargantuan, but you can damn well shoot at it from any side you please. My brainstorm definitely does not pass your 3-4 IK test. Then again, neither does yours...

At any rate, you've really got my brain churning about Hunter Contingents now. The leadership issue led me back to another unit I don't really like at all: Aun'va. It occurs to me that the good space pope becomes more or less invulnerable to shooting if you attach an iridium commander to him. I doubt that's a competitive thing to do, but it can certainly help stop your dudes from bolting from bolters if you're determined to commit to MSU.

I really like your army a lot, honestly. I don't think you're really getting much out of it being crammed into a Hunter Contingent, though. The FBSCs can fire together for shared marker lights anyway, and you have more than enough drones to compensate for the lost BS. You'd probably get more mileage out of reworking things into a Dawn Blade Contingent and a Riptide Wing.

One of the things I've been mulling is a rework of a list I posted previously that was designed to take advantage of Breachers. Ghostkeel Wing-supported d-pod Devilfish dropping them off into places your opponent doesn't want them is pretty incredible, in my experience. If they could all share marker lights, that'd be totally awesome. I have no idea why I didn't think about this before! I'll slap a list together in a sec.

Turtlesoup wrote:
Hunter Contingent + drone net vx 1-0 - 1850pts



Stormsurge - 405pts
Pulse driver cannon, tl burst cannon, velocity tracker, EWO

No Invul on the Stormsurge? That's living dangerously.

Turtlesoup wrote:
Hunter Contingent + drone net vx 1-0 - 1850pts

[List]

My list is a very plain hunter contingent list that have a balanced amount of fire power saturation, surgical strike capability and some counter assault capabilities. Commander will always go with the drone net drones and acts as marker light dispenser. Riptides are the main source of mobility to take midfield objectives as well as surgical strikes, strikers are assault screening units, broadsides provides firepower saturation and stormsurge as the surgical strike pillar and anti-air units. All of my models except for the 4 drones and 15 strikers can intercept. 17 units provides descent MSU with no obvious pillars （closest being the markers and stormsurge). Other than strikers and drones, the units responsible for dispensing fire power are generally durable and will not run due to shooting attacks, which provide a reliable and stable gunline. The odd opponent units that is able to make it into assault will face many units overwatch at higher than normal bs. Anti air is primarily the stormsurge providing s10 ap2 pie plates and many s5 hits supported by marker drones that reroll snapshots. The list has decent monster and vehicle fighting capability from the 2 firebase cadre formation. The only weakness to this list is a mirror list.

Interesting List. I like how you've used 2 FSC to make your whole army very MSU. Hard to focus one thing down without overkill. Also solves some of the awful leadship issues that things like Broadsides suffer from. With 3 Riptides, 4 Broadsides and a Stormsurge, you should have plenty of firepower. And 5 Markerlight source units will allow your MSU to have plenty of ML support.

The main issue I see with the list is capping objectives as your army is fairly static except for your Riptides, which are also important damage sources, so if they move up, they risk getting tied up in combat or picked off. Maybe finding points for a Devilfish or 2 for your Firewarriors? How has your experience been against aggressive armies or things like Battlecompany where you have to commit to contesting objectives or lose maelstrom entirely?

MilkmanAl wrote:

The MSU amount is good but this list lacks resilience and surgical strike capability. 30 inch kill range is too short for most surgical strikes. Resilience wise, any opponent's unit shooting at your pathfinders will likely cause it to run or get wiped out entirely, loosing quite a significant proportion of fire power. An army composed entirely of glass canons are no fun to play because it will all be over by turn 3. I suggest you add at least an ethereal in the list to make your infantry less likely to run away. That will make a fun and situational list to play but no where near competitive.

Agreed on everything except the surgical strike comment. While the list I posted may not be the biggest powerhouse ever to grace the Warhammer community, the one thing it does exceedingly well is surgical strikes. With moderately quick units roaming all over the board and the potential for half of them to come on from any board edge, you can target pretty much anything you want at any time. You may not be able to kill it if it's something gargantuan, but you can damn well shoot at it from any side you please. My brainstorm definitely does not pass your 3-4 IK test. Then again, neither does yours...

At any rate, you've really got my brain churning about Hunter Contingents now. The leadership issue led me back to another unit I don't really like at all: Aun'va. It occurs to me that the good space pope becomes more or less invulnerable to shooting if you attach an iridium commander to him. I doubt that's a competitive thing to do, but it can certainly help stop your dudes from bolting from bolters if you're determined to commit to MSU.

I really like your army a lot, honestly. I don't think you're really getting much out of it being crammed into a Hunter Contingent, though. The FBSCs can fire together for shared marker lights anyway, and you have more than enough drones to compensate for the lost BS. You'd probably get more mileage out of reworking things into a Dawn Blade Contingent and a Riptide Wing.

One of the things I've been mulling is a rework of a list I posted previously that was designed to take advantage of Breachers. Ghostkeel Wing-supported d-pod Devilfish dropping them off into places your opponent doesn't want them is pretty incredible, in my experience. If they could all share marker lights, that'd be totally awesome. I have no idea why I didn't think about this before! I'll slap a list together in a sec.

Actually my list past the the 4 IK test because i defeated one by a huge margin on a tournament. I didn't even roll a 6 on my d weapon on that game and i went second. The key to winning IK with my list is flanking with riptide, split deployment and proper screening unit. I killed two IK by turn three and the rest just don't have enough assault and shooting moves to eliminate my MSU units that is spread out from one corner of the board to the other. It made him choose one side of the board over the other.

I do not think dawn blade is better than hunter contingent for the fact that i would need alot more marker support if i use one. This need is especially glaring when fighting an invisible superfriend which can only be defeated by hunter contingent if using a pure tau list. The problem i have with colexus is because that unit is very situational, great for invisible star but is useless in a list with 4 IKs.

Your list is most likely doing a surgical strike on second turn when playing against experienced player. And you are likely to only do one turn of surgical strike if any before it withers away under the slightest pressure. Against tau list, your list is not likely to enter from reserve unharmed. This is why i do not see your list as being a surgical strike list on an actual game with experienced players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Heldericht wrote:

Turtlesoup wrote:
Hunter Contingent + drone net vx 1-0 - 1850pts

[List]

My list is a very plain hunter contingent list that have a balanced amount of fire power saturation, surgical strike capability and some counter assault capabilities. Commander will always go with the drone net drones and acts as marker light dispenser. Riptides are the main source of mobility to take midfield objectives as well as surgical strikes, strikers are assault screening units, broadsides provides firepower saturation and stormsurge as the surgical strike pillar and anti-air units. All of my models except for the 4 drones and 15 strikers can intercept. 17 units provides descent MSU with no obvious pillars （closest being the markers and stormsurge). Other than strikers and drones, the units responsible for dispensing fire power are generally durable and will not run due to shooting attacks, which provide a reliable and stable gunline. The odd opponent units that is able to make it into assault will face many units overwatch at higher than normal bs. Anti air is primarily the stormsurge providing s10 ap2 pie plates and many s5 hits supported by marker drones that reroll snapshots. The list has decent monster and vehicle fighting capability from the 2 firebase cadre formation. The only weakness to this list is a mirror list.

Interesting List. I like how you've used 2 FSC to make your whole army very MSU. Hard to focus one thing down without overkill. Also solves some of the awful leadship issues that things like Broadsides suffer from. With 3 Riptides, 4 Broadsides and a Stormsurge, you should have plenty of firepower. And 5 Markerlight source units will allow your MSU to have plenty of ML support.

The main issue I see with the list is capping objectives as your army is fairly static except for your Riptides, which are also important damage sources, so if they move up, they risk getting tied up in combat or picked off. Maybe finding points for a Devilfish or 2 for your Firewarriors? How has your experience been against aggressive armies or things like Battlecompany where you have to commit to contesting objectives or lose maelstrom entirely?

Mobility problem is a common trait of all tau unit not for the lack of movement in general but for the lack of units that can be in close proximity with and opponent unit without the risk of getting assaulted. Any tau unit cannot sit on an objective as well as marine does and it is done intentionally by the game designer. Devilfish + firewarrior combo is not better than a riptide in term of maintaining mobility while shooting. I would have to sacrifice a significant amount of firepower just to get a devilfish which is also not the most resilient unit. As a tau player, we play the objective game very differently than most list in that we will do mostly objective denial move/shooting rather than objective grabbing. In all of my gameplay i have never lost an objective in my side of the board other than when i am fighting a 3-4 IK list that charge like a bull. And most game play my riptides would be dominating the midfield by turn 3 or even as early as turn two depending on how the opponent deploys his forces. In most cases, I don't even have to worry about objective and worry more about bringing down the opponent's army to a point of hand shake before turn 4 or 5. Usually, i get the hand shake by turn three in my tournament games and some as early as turn two when they find their army without core units. I have never faced a full marine battle company because the players in my area loves their death star and giant walking units like IK and wk. The closest i have had with durable MSU is necron list with lots of necron warriors sitting/advancing on objectives. with this type of list i usually will focus to liberate one side/corner of the board first rather than spreading my fire power all over the map. If I can clear their units from one side of the board early then we have at least equal chance of objective grabbing. the side i cleared is usually the side with most melee oriented units.

Turtlesoup wrote:

Mobility problem is a common trait of all tau unit not for the lack of movement in general but for the lack of units that can be in close proximity with and opponent unit without the risk of getting assaulted. Any tau unit cannot sit on an objective as well as marine does and it is done intentionally by the game designer. Devilfish + firewarrior combo is not better than a riptide in term of maintaining mobility while shooting. I would have to sacrifice a significant amount of firepower just to get a devilfish which is also not the most resilient unit. As a tau player, we play the objective game very differently than most list in that we will do mostly objective denial move/shooting rather than objective grabbing. In all of my gameplay i have never lost an objective in my side of the board other than when i am fighting a 3-4 IK list that charge like a bull. And most game play my riptides would be dominating the midfield by turn 3 or even as early as turn two depending on how the opponent deploys his forces. In most cases, I don't even have to worry about objective and worry more about bringing down the opponent's army to a point of hand shake before turn 4 or 5. Usually, i get the hand shake by turn three in my tournament games and some as early as turn two when they find their army without core units. I have never faced a full marine battle company because the players in my area loves their death star and giant walking units like IK and wk. The closest i have had with durable MSU is necron list with lots of necron warriors sitting/advancing on objectives. with this type of list i usually will focus to liberate one side/corner of the board first rather than spreading my fire power all over the map. If I can clear their units from one side of the board early then we have at least equal chance of objective grabbing. the side i cleared is usually the side with most melee oriented units.

I see. You definitely make some good points, I'll try and test this out. Giving up objectives seems counter intuitive, but I suppose other armies like Renegades already do it in favor of board control on their half and overwhelming firepower. I still feel like MSU might be an issue like an outflanking White Scars battle company. I'll definitely test it at some point and post back.

Thank you for the insights.

How do you guys feel about Broadside spam? It's no secret that they offer impressive firepower per point, and they're featured prominently in a few interesting formations. However, they're essentially static and aren't terribly durable.

My thought is that you could possibly work with the Ranged Support Cadre to make them more mobile since one marker light hit (that counts as double in the formation) brings them back to baseline in terms of hitting things. Yes, Pathfinders are immobile and fairly flimsy even with Shrouded, but that double marker light perk is darn nice. Is it enough to make up for all the things Drone Net Marker Drones do better, though? Would it be better to get multiple Broadsides from other sources (like, say, the relentless ones from a Retaliation Cadre)?

In any event, it seems like hooking them up with tank/monster hunter is a really good idea. Whether that buff should come from a buffmander, the FBSC formation bonus, or the DBC formation bonus is something I'm still pondering.

For instance, try this on for size:

DBC
Hunter Cadre
Commander - 2 missile pods, TL - 120
3x5 FW - 135
2xRiptide - IA, EWO, SMS - 380
Piranha - 40
Stormsurge - pulse driver, shield gen, AFP, EWO - 435

RSC
3x5 Pathfinders - 165
3x1 Broadsides - EWO - 210

RSC
2x5 Pathfinders - 110
4 Pathfinders - 44
3x1 Broadsides - EWO - 210

1849 in total, by my count.

It's definitelyt in keeping with the MSU theme this thread has taken on, and while you don't benefit from the Hunter Contingent bonuses, your units are mostly pretty marker-independent. If you don't need the markers elsewhere - like for your Stormsurge - you can reposition a few of the 'sides as necessary and still have them shoot effectively. The Commander is a bit of a lost puppy in this setup, unfortunately. I'd figured to have him run with the FW to create target priority issues and to keep them extra mobile, but if you guys can think of better uses, I'm all ears. The Piranha will likely be reserved for some objective grabbing and maybe use as a roadblock. Ideally it'd come on the board in a location that allows it to take advantage of the Hunter Cadre bonuses to flat out then shoot something in your opponent's backfield.

 Bach wrote:

Turtlesoup wrote:
Hunter Contingent + drone net vx 1-0 - 1850pts



Stormsurge - 405pts
Pulse driver cannon, tl burst cannon, velocity tracker, EWO

No Invul on the Stormsurge? That's living dangerously.

It depends on how you use your stormsurge. If it is a stationary artillery piece then you don't waste 50pts on invulnerable save when you already get 4+++ cover save most of the time. To date, i have not seen a need for invulnerable save on my stormsurge. But, if you want to send it up field with pulse blast cannon as a midfield mobile artillery, then you will need the invulnerable save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Heldericht wrote:

Turtlesoup wrote:

Mobility problem is a common trait of all tau unit not for the lack of movement in general but for the lack of units that can be in close proximity with and opponent unit without the risk of getting assaulted. Any tau unit cannot sit on an objective as well as marine does and it is done intentionally by the game designer. Devilfish + firewarrior combo is not better than a riptide in term of maintaining mobility while shooting. I would have to sacrifice a significant amount of firepower just to get a devilfish which is also not the most resilient unit. As a tau player, we play the objective game very differently than most list in that we will do mostly objective denial move/shooting rather than objective grabbing. In all of my gameplay i have never lost an objective in my side of the board other than when i am fighting a 3-4 IK list that charge like a bull. And most game play my riptides would be dominating the midfield by turn 3 or even as early as turn two depending on how the opponent deploys his forces. In most cases, I don't even have to worry about objective and worry more about bringing down the opponent's army to a point of hand shake before turn 4 or 5. Usually, i get the hand shake by turn three in my tournament games and some as early as turn two when they find their army without core units. I have never faced a full marine battle company because the players in my area loves their death star and giant walking units like IK and wk. The closest i have had with durable MSU is necron list with lots of necron warriors sitting/advancing on objectives. with this type of list i usually will focus to liberate one side/corner of the board first rather than spreading my fire power all over the map. If I can clear their units from one side of the board early then we have at least equal chance of objective grabbing. the side i cleared is usually the side with most melee oriented units.

I see. You definitely make some good points, I'll try and test this out. Giving up objectives seems counter intuitive, but I suppose other armies like Renegades already do it in favor of board control on their half and overwhelming firepower. I still feel like MSU might be an issue like an outflanking White Scars battle company. I'll definitely test it at some point and post back.

Thank you for the insights.

i welcome the sight of outflanking army actually, my list is full of EWO MSU will also help with outflanking too as it will screen the assaulting troop. In any case outflanking tau with the current drone net is really not a good idea for the opponent, especially if they do not have the rule to charge unit at the turn they arrive from reserve.

Are Breachers any good? They seem like they would be half decent if you loaded them up in a Devilsfish and took a forward objective. Then again, that seems against the Tau's MO.