Russian Airliner crashed in Egypt

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**Peter Wiggin**

loki old fart wrote:
If I was a Russian Intel officer, I would be wondering why the USA had a satellite focused above Sharm El Sheikh. To observe the flash, when it happened.
GCHQ had heard chatter about it, but was that before or after.

Well, see there are a lot of things in that general region that are are of a lot of interest to anyone in the geo-strategic intel community. Wasn't it just last month that a British plane literally had to dodge a missile over Sharm? Observation satts cover a very large area and it would be imprudent NOT to be watching the Sanai.

**Orlanth**

The missile dodged was not aimed at the aircraft, it wa\s an Egyptian military exercise with Egyptian military level of safeguards.

The aircraft did perform an evasive maneuver anyway, probably an ex-military pilot, most airline pilots are.

**Freakazoitt**

Charlie Hebdo made caricatures about russian liner crush. Should we bomb Charlie Hebdo too?

**Hordini**

Freakazoitt wrote:
Charlie Hebdo made caricatures about russian liner crush. Should we bomb Charlie Hebdo too?

What is this in response to? What are you even talking about? No, you should not bomb Charlie Hebdo.

**Vaktathi**

Freakazoitt wrote:
Charlie Hebdo made caricatures about russian liner crush. Should we bomb Charlie Hebdo too?

Being offensive is pretty much their thing, the publication has always put out stuff like that, one of them was a double-joke both about the airliner and about some french pilots that ran off when they were about to be arrested on drug charges. They're kinda there to be offensive to everyone.

**LordofHats**

It's only offensive if you take things way too seriously

(maybe a bit low class though

)

**Iron_Captain**

Bombing Charlie Hebdo? Not long ago, everyone, including Russia, was outraged about the attack on them, and now you want to bomb them?
It would be useless anyway, the survivors would just make an offensive cartoon about that...

Being offensive is their entire raison d'être. They are offensive just for the sake of being offensive. And sometimes, they go too far. It is okay to mock governments, religions etc. but victims of a plane crash? That is just sick. It is despicable, but freedom of expression is there also for expressions that are offensive and in bad taste.

**Peter Wiggin**

Wasn't there a group of people advocating killing Charlie Hedbo over a cartoon recently?

Don't be that guy.

**LethalShade**

Freakazoitt wrote:
Charlie Hebdo made caricatures about russian liner crush. Should we bomb Charlie Hebdo too?

It was quite funny, and nope, you shouldn't bomb them. They are offensive for the sake of satire, and this is a right I'm glad they have. The articles were as depressing as always, tho. (Don't know if you people read it, or even if is published abroad)

**Freakazoitt**

Vaktathi wrote:
Freakazoitt wrote:
Charlie Hebdo made caricatures about russian liner crush. Should we bomb Charlie Hebdo too?
Being offensive is pretty much their thing, the publication has always put out stuff like that, one of them was a double-joke both about the airliner and about some french pilots that ran off when they were about to be arrested on drug charges. They're kinda there to be offensive to everyone.

What's the point to do that? They make big money on insulting everyone? Or just anarchist without any goals?

**LethalShade**

Freakazoitt wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Freakazoitt wrote:
Charlie Hebdo made caricatures about russian liner crush. Should we bomb Charlie Hebdo too?
Being offensive is pretty much their thing, the publication has always put out stuff like that, one of them was a double-joke both about the airliner and about some french pilots that ran off when they were about to be arrested on drug charges. They're kinda there to be offensive to everyone.

What's the point to do that? They make big money on insulting everyone? Or just anarchist without any goals?

Nope. They try to offend people to make them react to something, but most people, me included, find the caricatures funny. Don't criticize them if you've never read them.

**Freakazoitt**

Peter Wiggin wrote:
Wasn't there a group of people advocating killing Charlie Hedbo over a cartoon recently?

Don't be that guy.

I'm just joking. I will never tolerate such attacks on them, but also I will not be surprised if something will happen again.

**Freakazoitt**

Author of the column "is this what You wanted, Charly" Alexander Minkin told the radio station "Moscow Says", like a collage, illustrating the rape of the chief editor of Charlie Hebdo, came to the site of the newspaper "Moskovsky Komsomolets".
"The idea was artist Andrei Budaev, I called last night and said that drew pictures about "Charlie". Want to see? Want. He sent me these pictures, four pieces. What is published in MK — very gentle, "the scarlet flower". The rest are much tougher. When he sent me this, I thought it should be printed, if it exists," said Minkin.
Chief editor of "Moskovsky Komsomolets" Pavel Gusev gave the go-ahead to publish only one image, fearing that the publication of all four edition may close.
Of the four options was chosen collage rape chief editor of the French weekly Gerard Biar. Buda took the picture, which depicts two men. One of them is inclined and attached to a horizontal handrail (to his body, the artist has added a head of Biar), the other was behind me close to him and kept hold of the two vertical handrail (in place of his head cartoon picture Arab).
"Arab is an accident. Generally speaking, I like this detail very much. I even asked Budayev, to replace Arab other character. Began to think who it could be — Ilya Muromets, Alyosha Popovic. But, to attach them to the Bear, I would say that we Ilya Muromets represented a wrong orientation", — said the journalist.
The image appeared on the website of MK on the evening of 12th November under the heading "is this what You wanted, Charles." The collage was preceded by the explanation: "lying Naked bound man is the chief editor of "Charlie Hebdo". With him back doing something naked standing man. Guessed that? Guess where? And did, why? Because "Charlie" was published on the cover of a new caricature. The caricature blown up the passenger plane, which killed 224...".
The cartoon was published on the cover of the latest issue of Charlie Hebdo. It painted a plane in its tail, resembling the anus, the rocket flies. The picture was accompanied by the message "the Wreck over the Sinai. Finally porn!".
A few days earlier a strong reaction of Russian politicians and public men caused two other cartoons on the deaths of the airliner with Russian tourists. Editor-in-chief of the weekly then explained that cartoonists don't make fun of victims and by the very fact of the tragedy. "We just comment on the event and show your opinion on it. And we do this every week," he said.
The Airbus A321 companies "Kogalymavia" flying from Sharm El Sheikh to St. Petersburg, fell on October 31 in the Northern Sinai. Killing all 224 people aboard. The reason of falling of the liner is not yet installed.

https://latestnewsresource.com/en/news/v-mk-objasnili-pojavlenie-karikatury-s-iznasilovaniem-glavreda-charlie-hebdo

Is that what Charly Hebpo wanted to do - tease others to do same things?

**LethalShade**

I had difficulties reading this, honestly. Was it translated via a software ?

**Jihadin**

We went from Russian airliner getting taking down (more likely a bomb) to Charlie Hepdo.

These are two different animals

**LethalShade**

I don't want to be that guy, but Hebdo*

**Jihadin**

LethalShade wrote:
I don't want to be that guy, but Hebdo*

Your new...I let you go on your self correction

**LethalShade**

Well, if it's a private joke, I'm not going to get it

But this is going off-topic.

**Orlanth**

Jihadin wrote:
We went from Russian airliner getting taking down (more likely a bomb) to Charlie Hepdo.

These are two different animals

Charlie Hebdo is relevant because their cartoons on the Sinaia disaster have kicked up a stink in Russia. Russia and France are traditional partners and this is causing strain. The Kremlin are making comments and many ordinary Russians are vocalising 'Je Ne Suis Pas Charlie'.

There have also been counter cartoons, this turning into a cartoon war, which is surreal but politically important. One Russian cartoon doing the rounds shows the victims of the Charlie Hebdo attack in a pot of boiling water guarded by pitchfork wielding demons. The caption reads that the first batch of Charlie Hebdo staff after moving into their new office await their colleagues.
Another set of cartoons done very well in the style of Charlie Hebdo imply that the magazine editors are selling out employees to ISIS to gain sales publicity.
While one of these cartoons are taken seriously as comments, they are taken seriously as insults. It is considerably damaging o Russo-Gallic relations and getting worse, and I am sure this is being noticed.

**Iron_Captain**

Orlanth wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
We went from Russian airliner getting taking down (more likely a bomb) to Charlie Hepdo.

These are two different animals

Charlie Hebdo is relevant because their cartoons on the Sinaia disaster have kicked up a stink in Russia. Russia and France are traditional partners and this is causing strain. The Kremlin are making comments and many ordinary Russians are vocalising 'Je Ne Suis Pas Charlie'.

There have also been counter cartoons, this turning into a cartoon war, which is surreal but politically important. One Russian cartoon doing the rounds shows the victims of the Charlie Hebdo attack in a pot of boiling water guarded by pitchfork wielding demons. The caption reads that the first batch of Charlie Hebdo staff after moving into their new office await their colleagues.
Another set of cartoons done very well in the style of Charlie Hebdo imply that the magazine editors are selling out employees to ISIS to gain sales publicity.
While one of these cartoons are taken seriously as comments, they are taken seriously as insults. It is considerably damaging o Russo-Gallic relations and getting worse, and I am sure this is being noticed.

Relations between Russia and France already went below zero after France decided to break its contract over building those ships for the Russian navy. The fact that Russia allowed France to build ships for its navy (Russia normally never buys foreing equipment like that) was a huge sign of trust. They ruined it big time, relations are going to be sour over that for many years to come. These cartoons only added to a new negative image for France in Russia.

**Orlanth**

Ok, I didnt know about the warships.

On reading, it was a serious contract. Two Mistral class helicopter carriers. The Russians were given a full refund by the French,

France ignored US complaints at the sale in 2010, but had to back a NATO arms freeze in 2014 sourced by the invasion of the Crimea.

Egypt wants to buy them, but its unsure why Egypt needs them as they have no backup power projection. Also Egypt cant afford. They could be very useful off the Somalian coast so it is possible they are effectively just being reflagged for anti-piracy operations and Egypt is getting a grant from NATO to do so. I still dont buy that, India would be a mor plausible recipient for such a grant and is well placed to host a pair of helicopter carriers to patrol pirate infested waters.

So I also have to wonder if Egypt, which has very good trade relations with Russia is buying them to resell to Russia with the French being blind to the possibility of the trade. Certainly there is nothing anyone can do if Egypt takes possession of hem and flogs them to the Russians. Frankly the whole trade look dodgy. If I can see pitfalls in his in five minutes the French government can, and I have to wonder if this is just a means by which the French sell carriers to Russia from within NATO and get away with it.

**Gitzbitah**

Orlanth wrote:
Ok, I didnt know about the warships.

On reading, it was a serious contract. Two Mistral class helicopter carriers. The Russians were given a full refund by the French,

France ignored US complaints at the sale in 2010, but had to back a NATO arms freeze in 2014 sourced by the invasion of the Crimea.

Egypt wants to buy them, but its unsure why Egypt needs them as they have no backup power projection. Also Egypt cant afford. They could be very useful off the Somalian coast so it is possible they are effectively just being reflagged for anti-piracy operations and Egypt is getting a grant from NATO to do so. I still dont buy that, India would be a mor plausible recipient for such a grant and is well placed to host a pair of helicopter carriers to patrol pirate infested waters.

So I also have to wonder if Egypt, which has very good trade relations with Russia is buying them to resell to Russia with the French being blind to the possibility of the trade. Certainly there is nothing anyone can do if Egypt takes possession of hem and flogs them to the Russians. Frankly the whole trade look dodgy. If I can see pitfalls in his in five minutes the French government can, and I have to wonder if this is just a means by which the French sell carriers to Russia from within NATO and get away with it.

So Russia provides the layout, then gets a full refund from France, and gets Egypt to buy its ships to give them. Does that constitute a

Spoiler:

pyramid scheme?

YEAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!

**AlmightyWalrus**

Orlanth wrote:

So I also have to wonder if Egypt, which has very good trade relations with Russia is buying them to resell to Russia with the French being blind to the possibility of the trade. Certainly there is nothing anyone can do if Egypt takes possession of hem and flogs them to the Russians. Frankly the whole trade look dodgy. If I can see pitfalls in his in five minutes the French government can, and I have to wonder if this is just a means by which the French sell carriers to Russia from within NATO and get away with it.

Pretty sure there's going to be a "no reselling" clause in the contract.

**LethalShade**

Gitzbitah wrote:

So Russia provides the layout, then gets a full refund from France, and gets Egypt to buy its ships to give them. Does that constitute a

Spoiler:

pyramid scheme?

YEAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!

Get out. Leave Dakka and never come back.

Spoiler:

(Seriously though, that joke gave me cancer)

**Orlanth**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Orlanth wrote:

So I also have to wonder if Egypt, which has very good trade relations with Russia is buying them to resell to Russia with the French being blind to the possibility of the trade. Certainly there is nothing anyone can do if Egypt takes possession of hem and flogs them to the Russians. Frankly the whole trade look dodgy. If I can see pitfalls in his in five minutes the French government can, and I have to wonder if this is just a means by which the French sell carriers to Russia from within NATO and get away with it.

Pretty sure there's going to be a "no reselling" clause in the contract.

And things like that mean exactly what when it comes to buying carriers.

A no resale clause might work to prevent you from selling Windows 7 second hand as a private user. Its not going to stop Putin forking out for the carriers, or the Egyptians from selling it.
What can anyone do about it? Write him a letter and tell Putin he is naughty.

I smell a sewer full of rats. I cant see Egypt running a carrier fleet personally, let alone having two carriers. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Edit: Never mind. Orlanth answered my question.

**Grey Templar**

Orlanth wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Orlanth wrote:

So I also have to wonder if Egypt, which has very good trade relations with Russia is buying them to resell to Russia with the French being blind to the possibility of the trade. Certainly there is nothing anyone can do if Egypt takes possession of hem and flogs them to the Russians. Frankly the whole trade look dodgy. If I can see pitfalls in his in five minutes the French government can, and I have to wonder if this is just a means by which the French sell carriers to Russia from within NATO and get away with it.

Pretty sure there's going to be a "no reselling" clause in the contract.

And things like that mean exactly what when it comes to buying carriers.

A no resale clause might work to prevent you from selling Windows 7 second hand as a private user. Its not going to stop Putin forking out for the carriers, or the Egyptians from selling it.
What can anyone do about it? Write him a letter and tell Putin he is naughty.

I smell a sewer full of rats. I cant see Egypt running a carrier fleet personally, let alone having two carriers. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.

Ehh, IDK. Its not like these are super-carriers. They're little baby Helicarriers. They are in a volatile part of the world and they could definitely want some threat projection.

**Jihadin**

Can see....abandon ship and later recovered by...Russia...outside seven mile limit..."Salvage Rights"

**Orlanth**

Grey Templar wrote:

Ehh, IDK. Its not like these are super-carriers. They're little baby Helicarriers. They are in a volatile part of the world and they could definitely want some threat projection.

Baby carriers?

Helicopter carriers are still capital ships. Selling destroyers and frigates is a major deal and these are way bigger. Plus the French have good tech, they arent tubs with flight decks these are advanced modern warships.

The most important components will be the electronics.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jihadin wrote:
Can see....abandon ship and later recovered by...Russia...outside seven mile limit..."Salvage Rights"

Not really. Putin might then not pay, also there are two carriers to trade over.

Egypt will have to technically run one (with Russian advisors of course) while the other is finished. Both must have left France before the deal happens, or NATO could do something about the deal.

**Grey Templar**

I was under the impression these were relatively small ships.