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 Konrax wrote:
I think d20 would be awesome myself.

I dunno, I'm a little against the d20 system.
Have you ever played 5e dnd? The bounded accuracy of the system means that the d20 is huge, and combat can swing wildly towards one side or another based on die rolls. Advantage/Disadvantage become some of the best status effects in the game, since it lets you re-roll a d20.

The 2d6 system produces a nice bell curve. You can assume you'll most likely get a 6-8, but you can go for 4-5 and 9-10 in a pinch, especially if you get to re-roll 1 die (Imagine if TL allowed you to re-roll 1 die in a 2d6...it would be good but not game breaking).
I do think stats should go from 1-20 however.

A defense stat would help with agile troops too. It would make them vulnerable to blast weapons while still being strong against weapons like plasmaguns. Terminators, for example, could have terrible defense but Tank levels of armor.
Honestly, if someone converted 40k to the WMH system I would play nothing but that all day every day. Some stuff would change (boosting) but it would be so good.

Say something like this for a stat line
Guardsmen;
WS 4, BS 4, S 3, T 3, I 3, Defense 10, Armor 11
Las guns 1 shot at 24, 2 shots at 12".
Las guns have Str 4
Knives have str 1 (So total str 4).
Guardsmen have 1 wound.
Guardsmen are 4 points.

Marines.
WS 6, BS 6, S 5, T 5, I 4, Defense 11, Armor 13
Bolters are the same RoF as las guns.
Bolters are Str 5, +1 Str against infantry models
Knives are str 1 (So Str 6 total).
Marines have 4 wounds.
Marines are 16 points.

So a guardsmen needs to roll a 7 to hit a marine, and a 10 to wound a marine (and you must cause 4 wounds to kill a marine, but a roll of 11 causes 2, 12 causes 3).
A marine needs to roll a 4 to hit a guardsmen, and a 6 to kill a guardsmen.

Things like plasmaguns would get a rule like Str 10, Armor piercing (Against infantry, +2 Str), so a plasma gun can one shot a marine but overkills a guardmen.
Melta guns, if under 6", double the amount of wounds caused to tanks.
Tanks would have armor values in the 13-18 range, with 12-25 wounds.

Obviously this is a first pass, but I think the game could work.

I like your ideas, 40k in general needs a facelift.

My biggest gripe is the I go you go turn sequence that emphasizes imbalances inherent in the game.

My friends and I play a version very similar to bolt action and its amazing how not a big deal going first is. The damage done is nicely distributed and it is fairly consistent.

It works amazingly well for FFA as well, last weekend we had a 5 player 1000pt battle with capture the relic as the mission. It was great fun and felt much more dynamic and strategic than any standard 40k game I ever played.

 Konrax wrote:
I like your ideas, 40k in general needs a facelift.

My biggest gripe is the I go you go turn sequence that emphasizes imbalances inherent in the game.

My friends and I play a version very similar to bolt action and its amazing how not a big deal going first is. The damage done is nicely distributed and it is fairly consistent.

It works amazingly well for FFA as well, last weekend we had a 5 player 1000pt battle with capture the relic as the mission. It was great fun and felt much more dynamic and strategic than any standard 40k game I ever played.

I'll have to admit, even in WMH certain factions get a huge benefit for going first (though recently these casters were nerfed). I'm not sure how to solve it, because I enjoy the IGOUGO system at its core. It does have issues though.
I believe you'd have to add a benefit for going second. Like...2nd player gets to place 2 pieces of terrain for every 1 the attacker may place. I think this would represent the defenders being in a location that is defensible and the attackers only have a small impact on where the fight happens.

Then have warlord traits (that isn't random) allow removal of terrain, or moving them so many inches. Special characters can move/remove terrain after deployment but before first turn.
Because this is 40k the person removing terrain must yell "CREEEEEED" whenever they do so.
I think you'd still need to cut the range of most weapons by about a 1/3rd or a 1/4th. This would help assault since they don't take as much firepower on the way in.
Also, every unit has movement values as part of the stat line again. Running doubles movement, charging adds Init to movement (Orks would have a rule where charging doubles their init value or something, to represent how ferocious they are on the charge but if they are caught by surprise they can be killed in mass).

 Vaktathi wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Am I the only one that doesn't understand why loyalist Terminators have elected to use Storm Bolters when Combi-Bolters are better in every way for Terminators? Is this another case of Loyalists being idiots?

Because game mechanics aren't static over multiple editions. When Terminators were first created, these weapons functioned differently than they do now, there was no "assualt" or "rapid fire" type, and Storm bolters were very good indeed in RT and 2nd edition. Through edition changes and variances in game mechanics, unit value, etc, these things have changed.

If you can get a copy of the 2E Wargear book, that'll give you a better idea of what these weapons really should look like next to one another.

Amen. I remember how awesome storm bolters were back in 2E. They were THE basic gun to take if you could.
http://www.kerlin.de/pic/antik_40k/downloads/Warhammer-40k-Battle-Bible-1-51.pdf

I'm a little lost here... how are Storm Bolters worse than combi-bolters?

Aren't the Storm 2 shots at 24" vs 1 shot at 24"? Even with the twinlink on a MEQ the storm delivers more wounds than the combi, 0.66 wounds from the storm vs 0.44 on the combi.

On 12" and less the combi does 0.88 wounds vs the same 0.66 wounds from the storm. The difference is 0.22 more when beyond 12" and 0.22 when less than 12". I'd say they are equal. Unless you are referring to being able to purchase for extra point combi-weapons that remove the TL but makes it better to tackle certain situations you may face during the game.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
I'm a little lost here... how are Storm Bolters worse than combi-bolters?

Aren't the Storm 2 shots at 24" vs 1 shot at 24"? Even with the twinlink on a MEQ the storm delivers more wounds than the combi, 0.66 wounds from the storm vs 0.44 on the combi.

On 12" and less the combi does 0.88 wounds vs the same 0.66 wounds from the storm. The difference is 0.22 more when beyond 12" and 0.22 when less than 12". I'd say they are equal. Unless you are referring to being able to purchase for extra point combi-weapons that remove the TL but makes it better to tackle certain situations you may face during the game.

It's entirely the last part. Have a (cheaper) unit armed with combi pgs or flamers isn't horrible (not great but not bad) but arming them with just storm bolters and an assault cannon is criminal.
There are few situations where a bolter is a good choice over a combi weapon.

Honestly, I think 40k went downhill when they decided to use a set AP value for each weapon and a fixed armor save. There are SO many AP1/AP2 weaponry out there now that slow, expensive, elite units like Terminators are null and void now. They used to be a 3+ save on 2D6. How awesome was that? It really made people fear Terminators, even if you shot them with a weapon with a -3 save modifier.

You get back to save modifiers on weapons instead of a set AP value, and using multiple dice for saves and you've got yourself a game. This fixed 'D6' system of 16.6% variances is crappy, VERY VERY crappy.

steelreign wrote:
Honestly, I think 40k went downhill when they decided to use a set AP value for each weapon and a fixed armor save. There are SO many AP1/AP2 weaponry out there now that slow, expensive, elite units like Terminators are null and void now. They used to be a 3+ save on 2D6. How awesome was that? It really made people fear Terminators, even if you shot them with a weapon with a -3 save modifier.

You get back to save modifiers on weapons instead of a set AP value, and using multiple dice for saves and you've got yourself a game. This fixed 'D6' system of 16.6% variances is crappy, VERY VERY crappy.

Have an exalt for that.
I too feel that armour saves should be modified by the AP of the shot hitting you as opposed too an all or nothing blast.

steelreign wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Am I the only one that doesn't understand why loyalist Terminators have elected to use Storm Bolters when Combi-Bolters are better in every way for Terminators? Is this another case of Loyalists being idiots?

Because game mechanics aren't static over multiple editions. When Terminators were first created, these weapons functioned differently than they do now, there was no "assualt" or "rapid fire" type, and Storm bolters were very good indeed in RT and 2nd edition. Through edition changes and variances in game mechanics, unit value, etc, these things have changed.

If you can get a copy of the 2E Wargear book, that'll give you a better idea of what these weapons really should look like next to one another.

Amen. I remember how awesome storm bolters were back in 2E. They were THE basic gun to take if you could.
http://www.kerlin.de/pic/antik_40k/downloads/Warhammer-40k-Battle-Bible-1-51.pdf

They were crap. Try again.

Martel732 wrote:

steelreign wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Am I the only one that doesn't understand why loyalist Terminators have elected to use Storm Bolters when Combi-Bolters are better in every way for Terminators? Is this another case of Loyalists being idiots?

Because game mechanics aren't static over multiple editions. When Terminators were first created, these weapons functioned differently than they do now, there was no "assualt" or "rapid fire" type, and Storm bolters were very good indeed in RT and 2nd edition. Through edition changes and variances in game mechanics, unit value, etc, these things have changed.

If you can get a copy of the 2E Wargear book, that'll give you a better idea of what these weapons really should look like next to one another.

Amen. I remember how awesome storm bolters were back in 2E. They were THE basic gun to take if you could.
http://www.kerlin.de/pic/antik_40k/downloads/Warhammer-40k-Battle-Bible-1-51.pdf

They were crap. Try again.

They where rapid fire. It was possible, with some luck, to mow down every single model within range with a single Stormbolter.
(BTW this was when Rapid Fire meant that every time you hit and wounded a target you got to fire again at another target [or the same one if it had not died] within a certain distance of the last target)

They didn't do that in 2nd ed. They had a single sustained fire die.

I agree with those disliking the 'all or nothing' quality of Armour Piercing Rules....
One of my possible methods to 'fix' the defensiveness capabilities of Terminators would be to change the Armour Save system to match that of a standard Characteristic Test.

This involves granting every Model an Armour Value between 1 and 10, with 10 being the best value possible. The Armour Piercing Value of the weapon would then become a modifier to this Characteristic Test, making it a lot harder to roll a Result lower then the targeted Value. This change would make it so a weapon with an Armour Piercing value of 2 is more likely to punch through an Armour Save of 4 then a Weapon with a Armour Piercing value of 1, as higher Armour Piercing values are a harsher penalty on the resulting tests.

Then I would take it a step further by removing the 'Rolls of 6 are always a failure, Rolls of 1 are always a success' clause for Characteristic Tests involving Armour Saves.

While this makes it possible that Weapons with high Armour Piercing Values are still capable of negating the Armour entirely, rolling lower then 2 is impossible with a +2 modifier, it also creates the opposite outcome. It is entirely possible for Armour to have a value high enough that weapons with low Armour Piercing values are incapable of ever getting through said Armour. The most likely Unit to benefit from this change would be Terminators, as I fathom Terminator Armour would be around an 8 on this new system. Terminators will no longer need to fear cheap basic troop choices capable of large amounts of Armour Piercing - shots, which seems to be a large gripe against them.

As per the last topic on this subject, I strongly believe Terminators need a survival increase more than their weapons need an upgrade. Even with better combi-bolters, let's be honest... we'd still never use them. They're supposed to be an elite unit and they're just not there. Infantry in general are kind of worthless in 40k unless they have heavy weapons, mobility for point capture, or for fighting other infantry. But we're in an age of big stompy mecha things. They're what the game is about now. Flyers, giant robots, speedy (jet)bikes, psykers, and artillery support.

Termies as a troop-slaughtering unit lack the heavy weapons to do so (only heavy flamer/autocannon/melee) and even with ANY of these proposed upgrades for storm bolters, termies would still be ineffective for their point cost. Masses of troops with 1 wound each at least take TIME for the important models to shred away so they have a purpose in an objective game. Yet Termies can't even do that right. They deep strike out of thin air and should be annihilating whatever is in front of them, and back in 2nd/3rd edition they could, but now everything in front of them is scarier than they are.

Their purpose as a unit needs to be rethought. If they're going to be so expensive as an armored platform, then it should be an armored heavy weapons platform with better survival. They require access to high dps shooty weapons (the short range ones preferably so havocs still have a purpose) and they need better toughness or re-rolls for armor. They'd still be killable by the weapons intended to face them, and that's something I think we've lost in editions post-3rd. We're no longer staring down vehicles we have no hope of destroying, we're no longer seeing terminators and obliterators as some of the scariest things on the table, even our Monstrous Creatures can no longer wade into the midst of a pack of infantry to slaughter them because almost everyone has free krak grenades or some type of Rending. Our units are more VULNERABLE now than they ever have been before with costs remaining the same or getting higher while more lethal options exist in this mad arms race.

The game is too massive to fix this vulnerability problem but for Termies there's lots of ways to approach it. Pick one and go with it, they need the ability to survive against more than they do currently or this is all pointless. Likewise, there are plenty of heavy weapons that exist that they should be able to take that could bump them up a few points on the lethality meter. Termies, like Havocs, should be a blank platform meant to be upgraded but we need the options to make upgrading them worth it. In a game with super heavies and flyers and blobs of 30 things attacking you 100+ times, offense and defense need a HUGE hike. The popularity of Centurions are just an example of how irrelevant termies are now because better stuff exists that invalidates them.

Why not both?

Make Storm Bolters Salvo2/4 and Terminator armor automatically grants the wearer +1W and +1T. And make all Terminators WS and BS5.

I'm just worried that giving them both 2 wounds and T5 would make them into just another version of Centurions.

Nah, they'd fill a different role. You could take them in 10 man units for starters so they'd be better in melee.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Why not both?

Make Storm Bolters Salvo2/4 and Terminator armor automatically grants the wearer +1W and +1T. And make all Terminators WS and BS5.

Termies are already basically double-strength infantry except in the case of Wounds. Doing this would make them more than double even in survival so combined with their other bonuses they'd cost even more than they currently do. The objective is also not to invalidate troops, which should always be the cheapest and most efficient option for large numbers of wounds and shots, not Terminators.

More toughness is good, re-rollable armor saves are good, and more skill is good. The reason these are okay is because if something capable of demolishing a terminator hits the field, it should. Having 5 toughness by default would mean only strength 10 stuff can instant death them... that's basically only Smash attacks and Gargantuans. It would also give Blood Angels and Dark Angels a huge edge with anti-terminator terminators. So if they're going to be tough, they should keep the 1 Wound and get wrecked by monstrous creatures swinging a bunch of times, yet still able to wreck them if shooting heavy weapons or using Storm Shields. We've already seen what 2 wound terminators can do back with Thousand Sons in 3.5 and it made troops (and just about every other kind of infantry) useless because every list should be running three full squads of terminators.

Troops are already mostly useless in many armies. They're taken because they can, and occasionally as cheap ablative wounds for a couple special or heavy weapons. There are few troops choices which are compelling by themselves, ironically Terminators are ok when they fill the troops slot.

I also think as they sit, giving them the OPTION of taking 5x Powerfists would greatly help. GK Terminators are outstanding for their point costs, mainly because you're not forced to take 5x unweildy powerfists that probably wont even see the first round of assault anyway.

steelreign wrote:
I also think as they sit, giving them the OPTION of taking 5x Powerfists would greatly help.

Something of a loyalist problem as Chaos Terminators come default equipped with Power Weapons. We actually have to pay if we want fist upgrades. Though this doesn't exactly solve the unwieldy problem since we're given Power Axes in the box...

I think Arkaine has actually cracked it... Game Workshop's sense of 'balance' is to ensure everything can be easily killed by anything else!
With the obvious exception of a few Models that Marketing wants to sell more of....

JinxDragon wrote:
I think Arkaine has actually cracked it... Game Workshop's sense of 'balance' is to ensure everything can be easily killed by anything else!
With the obvious exception of a few Models that Marketing wants to sell more of....

Ding ding ding. With each edition, the stuff that looks strong on paper is the stuff they want to sell. Vehicles, MCs, flyers, fortifications, super-heavies, and over time every one of them gets nerfed to the point that most armies can easily destroy them. Maybe one day even the Wraithknight will be balanced.

Arkaine wrote:even with better combi-bolters, let's be honest... we'd still never use them. They're supposed to be an elite unit and they're just not there. Infantry in general are kind of worthless in 40k unless they have heavy weapons, mobility for point capture,

You identify the problem as infantry bad, so it is strange that you then have seven paragraphs that don't solve for infantry bad. Everything else has something infantry don't, but infantry have nothing that something else doesn't.

Giving terminators more durability just makes them a bigger pile of nothing for presumably more pts. Storm bolters are awfulbat any rof and assault sucks.

Well, if you made them tougher, then the “survive until they can get into CC” things gets easier. They are still on the slow side, but if things want to run away from them, that had it’s advantages tactically.

Tougher terminators would get a lot more use of out their powerfists. Offensively, tactical terminators are just about the same as thunderhammer ones. They lack concussive, but get the option for chainfists. It’s the durability advantage of the SSs that make the TH/SS much more viable then the tacs. Make base TDA tougher, and they might see use.

 Nevelon wrote:
Well, if you made them tougher, then the “survive until they can get into CC” things gets easier. They are still on the slow side, but if things want to run away from them, that had it’s advantages tactically.

Tougher terminators would get a lot more use of out their powerfists. Offensively, tactical terminators are just about the same as thunderhammer ones. They lack concussive, but get the option for chainfists. It’s the durability advantage of the SSs that make the TH/SS much more viable then the tacs. Make base TDA tougher, and they might see use.

No matter how tough they are, a turn of no output after deep striking is unacceptable in 7th. Units that run away one turn, can always return after the terminator squad is crippled.

pelicaniforce wrote:

Arkaine wrote:even with better combi-bolters, let's be honest... we'd still never use them. They're supposed to be an elite unit and they're just not there. Infantry in general are kind of worthless in 40k unless they have heavy weapons, mobility for point capture,

You identify the problem as infantry bad, so it is strange that you then have seven paragraphs that don't solve for infantry bad. Everything else has something infantry don't, but infantry have nothing that something else doesn't.

You're searching for the thesis in the opening paragraph. Don't. That's a college paper standard, not a universal one. The closing arguments are legal precedence. Infantry being bad is but a symptom.

I have given this a lot of thought in recent months, and the balanced answer I believe is +1 toughness for wearing terminator armour and Storm bolters being assault 3. No point changes necessary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My other idea was to make combi-bolters actually two bolters in one weapon. Ie 2 shots at 24" and 4 shots at 12". Not twin-linked. Makes them balanced with the storm bolter so chaos don't get left in the dust again.

 Kavish wrote:
I have given this a lot of thought in recent months, and the balanced answer I believe is +1 toughness for wearing terminator armour and Storm bolters being assault 3. No point changes necessary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My other idea was to make combi-bolters actually two bolters in one weapon. Ie 2 shots at 24" and 4 shots at 12". Not twin-linked. Makes them balanced with the storm bolter so chaos don't get left in the dust again.

Still S4 shooting with no special rules. Useless.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
I have given this a lot of thought in recent months, and the balanced answer I believe is +1 toughness for wearing terminator armour and Storm bolters being assault 3. No point changes necessary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My other idea was to make combi-bolters actually two bolters in one weapon. Ie 2 shots at 24" and 4 shots at 12". Not twin-linked. Makes them balanced with the storm bolter so chaos don't get left in the dust again.

Still S4 shooting with no special rules. Useless.

Not at all. You'd be surprised how often I make important kills with bolt weapons. You just need lots of shots.