Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Do you have a link to tyranids winning with unique lists since the trio of power dexes have come out? Hopefully against those lists but if they win against a decent list without relying on the crutches of flyrants I'd be happy.

I haven't been able to find any.

 Selym wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Competitive play is not about themes.

No, but fair play should be. In a friendly match, I could bring out the cheesiest CSM combo possible, and still have the odds stacked against me when fighting a thematic sub-optimal list from another codex. No matter what Jancoran says, the codexes should be a lot closer to eachother in terms of power. And all codexes should make at least most of their units somewhat viable. We're paying ~£35 per codex, for feths sake.

"should"? Sure. I dont think "Jancoran said otherwise" did he? I dont remember Jancoran saying otherwise.

We disagree on the degree to which they are already apart; and we disagree on whether that stops me from winning. THATS the substance of our disagreement.

There isn't a gamer alive who doesnt wish for something he's not getting. I wish Chaos elites were better for example. Chaos has a weakness. It has strengths. Like every codex ever. Play to its strength. Or don't. that's a choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:
Do you have a link to tyranids winning with unique lists since the trio of power dexes have come out? Hopefully against those lists but if they win against a decent list without relying on the crutches of flyrants I'd be happy.

I haven't been able to find any.

Elvensword Ambassadorial Tournament 2014 (almost exactly a year ago)

EDIT: Interesting list for all kinds of reasons. No third Tyrant is interesting. Raveners might be the big surprise in the list though, which turned out to be pretty impactful in his games.

TYRANID ENTOURAGE
240PTS Hive Tyrant (2 X Twin-Linked Devourer, Brainleech Worms, Electroshock Grubs, Wings)
230PTS Hive Tyrant (2 X Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Wings).
== Elites ==
45 pts Venomthrope
165 pts 3 Hive Guard Brood (Impaler Cannon)
== Troops ==
235pts Tervigon (Stinger Salvo, Crushing Claws, Thorax - Electroshock Grubs, Adrenal Glands,
160pts 30 Termagant Brood (20xFleshborer, 10x Devourer).
== Fast Attack ==
155 pts Hive Crone
270 pts 6 Ravener Brood (Rending Claws, Deathspitter)
== Heavy Support ==
165 pts Carnifex (2 x Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Adrenal Glands)
165 pts Carnifex (2 x Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Adrenal Glands)
170 pts Exocrine
== Total ==
2000 pts.

 Jancoran wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:
Do you have a link to tyranids winning with unique lists since the trio of power dexes have come out? Hopefully against those lists but if they win against a decent list without relying on the crutches of flyrants I'd be happy.

I haven't been able to find any.

Elvensword Ambassadorial Tournament 2014 (almost exactly a year ago)

EDIT: Interesting list for all kinds of reasons. No third Tyrant is interesting. Raveners might be the big surprise in the list though, which turned out to be pretty impactful in his games.

TYRANID ENTOURAGE
240PTS Hive Tyrant (2 X Twin-Linked Devourer, Brainleech Worms, Electroshock Grubs, Wings)
230PTS Hive Tyrant (2 X Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Wings).
== Elites ==
45 pts Venomthrope
165 pts 3 Hive Guard Brood (Impaler Cannon)
== Troops ==
235pts Tervigon (Stinger Salvo, Crushing Claws, Thorax - Electroshock Grubs, Adrenal Glands,
160pts 30 Termagant Brood (20xFleshborer, 10x Devourer).
== Fast Attack ==
155 pts Hive Crone
270 pts 6 Ravener Brood (Rending Claws, Deathspitter)
== Heavy Support ==
165 pts Carnifex (2 x Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Adrenal Glands)
165 pts Carnifex (2 x Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Adrenal Glands)
170 pts Exocrine
== Total ==
2000 pts.

I highlighted the part you seemed to have missed.
Was this the 4th annual? I noticed in the 5th annual the Tyranids didn't seem to do well...did they run the same list?

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Selym wrote:
We're paying ~£35 per codex, for feths sake.

My car should get better gas mileage too. And girls should date me for my personality. What do you want me to say man? If you want a fair and balanced competitve game, spend that ~£35 on Starcraft.

In the meantime, you deal with things as they are. This KDK list did very well at NOVA, looking for ally potential is probably better than arguing about GWs financials or insulting people on dakka.

http://www.spikeybits.com/2015/09/khorne-places-5th-daemonkin-nova-battle-reps.html

I don't want KDK. I want CSM. Undivided, preferably. For £35 I could get the Eldar codex, and win 90% of all battles. I bought the book to read it. Flippin' OP compared to other books, but it's a good read and has nothing but fluffy viable units and army builds, with nice useful quirks to each build. The CSM book costs the same, is smaller, more poorly written, and is just trash on the TT. How is that fair?

Akiasura wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:
Do you have a link to tyranids winning with unique lists since the trio of power dexes have come out? Hopefully against those lists but if they win against a decent list without relying on the crutches of flyrants I'd be happy.

I haven't been able to find any.

Elvensword Ambassadorial Tournament 2014 (almost exactly a year ago)

EDIT: Interesting list for all kinds of reasons. No third Tyrant is interesting. Raveners might be the big surprise in the list though, which turned out to be pretty impactful in his games.

TYRANID ENTOURAGE
240PTS Hive Tyrant (2 X Twin-Linked Devourer, Brainleech Worms, Electroshock Grubs, Wings)
230PTS Hive Tyrant (2 X Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Wings).
== Elites ==
45 pts Venomthrope
165 pts 3 Hive Guard Brood (Impaler Cannon)
== Troops ==
235pts Tervigon (Stinger Salvo, Crushing Claws, Thorax - Electroshock Grubs, Adrenal Glands,
160pts 30 Termagant Brood (20xFleshborer, 10x Devourer).
== Fast Attack ==
155 pts Hive Crone
270 pts 6 Ravener Brood (Rending Claws, Deathspitter)
== Heavy Support ==
165 pts Carnifex (2 x Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Adrenal Glands)
165 pts Carnifex (2 x Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Adrenal Glands)
170 pts Exocrine
== Total ==
2000 pts.

I highlighted the part you seemed to have missed.
Was this the 4th annual? I noticed in the 5th annual the Tyranids didn't seem to do well...did they run the same list?

I said this was 2014, almost exactly a year ago. Necrons were probably out, though I dont recall the timelines.

The newer list was decidedly different and did NOT do as well (although the 2015 list DID actually win the preparatory tournament I held, so people could get practice with the missions. It appears that practice paid off for some!)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

I could get the Eldar codex, and win 90% of all battles.

Lol. No. Not in ITC I imagine.

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:
Do you have a link to tyranids winning with unique lists since the trio of power dexes have come out? Hopefully against those lists but if they win against a decent list without relying on the crutches of flyrants I'd be happy.

I haven't been able to find any.

Elvensword Ambassadorial Tournament 2014 (almost exactly a year ago)

EDIT: Interesting list for all kinds of reasons. No third Tyrant is interesting. Raveners might be the big surprise in the list though, which turned out to be pretty impactful in his games.

TYRANID ENTOURAGE
240PTS Hive Tyrant (2 X Twin-Linked Devourer, Brainleech Worms, Electroshock Grubs, Wings)
230PTS Hive Tyrant (2 X Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Wings).
== Elites ==
45 pts Venomthrope
165 pts 3 Hive Guard Brood (Impaler Cannon)
== Troops ==
235pts Tervigon (Stinger Salvo, Crushing Claws, Thorax - Electroshock Grubs, Adrenal Glands,
160pts 30 Termagant Brood (20xFleshborer, 10x Devourer).
== Fast Attack ==
155 pts Hive Crone
270 pts 6 Ravener Brood (Rending Claws, Deathspitter)
== Heavy Support ==
165 pts Carnifex (2 x Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Adrenal Glands)
165 pts Carnifex (2 x Twin-Linked Devourer - Brainleech Worms, Adrenal Glands)
170 pts Exocrine
== Total ==
2000 pts.

I highlighted the part you seemed to have missed.
Was this the 4th annual? I noticed in the 5th annual the Tyranids didn't seem to do well...did they run the same list?

I said this was 2014, almost exactly a year ago.

The newer list was decidedly different and did NOT do as well (although the 2015 list DID actually win the preparatory tournament I held, so people could get practice with the missions. It appears that practice paid off for some!)

So...you knew it wasn't what was being requested and not relevant and shared it anyway?
Okay...

Do you have the 2015 list? I can't figure out how to get to them.
Do you have any list since 2015 for the nids that is original? You did claim there were multiple winning lists taking odd things, so I'd like to see one original one. I have a huge tyranid collection and I've shelved most of it, since it's based on the older codexes, would love to play that instead of eldar if I don't have to spam.

Don't be unpleasant. I provided the winning list from 2014. Now you're going to pretend it didn't win? Anywho...

You contended it was weak when it DROPPED so obviously this shows it wasn't so weak after all.

The 2015 list did win the Pre-tournament (we had 28 players for that if memory serves). It came up short in the big event.

2015: list (same General)
Chancy Rickey Tyranids
Combined Arms Detachment (1545pts)
75pts Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
75pts Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
75pts Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
HQ
230pts Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked
Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
230pts Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked
Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Elites
50pts Lictor Brood [Lictor]
45pts Venomthrope Brood [Venomthrope]
Troops
15pts Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
15pts Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Fast Attack
25pts Spore Mine Cluster[5x Spore Mine]
260pts 5 x Tyranid Shrike Brood (All w/Adrenal Glands, Devourer, Flesh Hooks, Toxin
Sacs. 2 x Lashwhip & Boneswords, 3x Rending Claws)
Heavy Support
150pts Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer
with Brainleech Worms]
150pts Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer
with Brainleech Worms]
150pts Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer
with Brainleech Worms]
Fortification
70pts Aegis Defense Line[Comms Relay]

Allied Detachment
HQ
230pts Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked
Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Troops
15pts Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Heavy Support
140pts Mawloc

2nd Ambassadors list (never previously at the tournament, forced to withdraw early due to family emeergency so his record is not indicative):
Pumpkinhead Tyranids
Combined Arms Detachment
24opts 1 Tyrant w/ wings, 2x TL Dev, egrubs
260pts 1 tyrant w/ wings, Reaper of Oblit, egrubs, AG
72pts 15 Tgant w/ 3 devourers
148pts 6 Genestealers & BL w/ ST
120pts 3 biovores
100pts 3 warriors w/ BS
170pts 1 Exocrine
Detachment
240pts 1 Tyrant w/ wings, 2x TL Dev, egrubs
240pts 1 Tyrant w/ wings, 2x TL Dev, egrubs
165pts 3 Hive Guard
45pts 3 rippers w/ ds
45pts 3 rippers w/ ds
155pts 1 Hive Crone

All of the above lists still rely on flyrants to do the heavy lifting. This doesn't prove they can have interesting lists when half of the list is STILL monster mash spam. That is like saying the old space marines could be competitive without ultramarines, but then post a list with Tigurius as the Warlord :/ its ignoring the main point and showing minor variations. It's how I treat chaos lists: if you don't Nurgle spam and take 2 helldrakes then its not winning nationals, and even then it plays like a impguard vetmech spam summoning daemona

He doesn't care that a dex is mono build. As long as it's physically capable of winning a casual game once in a while the dex is OK and you just need to learn to play.

 Jancoran wrote:
Don't be unpleasant. I provided the winning list from 2014. Now you're going to pretend it didn't win? Anywho...

You contended it was weak when it DROPPED so obviously this shows it wasn't so weak after all.

Okay, wow.
First off, I am not being unpleasant. I asked for a list that may have faced the trio of power dexes, and you provided one before that while specifically quoting me. It wasn't what was asked for...at all. I pointed that out.

Second, I never once said it didn't win. I said the 2014 list didn't face the trio of power dexes . It didn't, they came out this year. Nothing ever mentioned about it not winning, no need to be so defensive

Third, I never said the list was weak. I said that many units in the dex are weak. I only mentioned 2 units in particular, genestealers and gaunts. I don't see stealers in either of your lists that played, though the guy who didn't appear did take a small squad (which is a broodlord delivery system, imo) and gaunts were in one with the MC that is pretty much mandatory with them.

Both lists from 2015 are taking 3+ Flyrants, a Mawloc (and accompanying lictor for homer duty), and some MC spam with other units added in sparse amounts for flavor. Everyone knows that is what is good in the nid dex, the problem is it's the only thing that's good currently.

So...what exactly are you arguing? These lists aren't very unique.

 MWHistorian wrote:
He doesn't care that a dex is mono build. As long as it's physically capable of winning a casual game once in a while the dex is OK and you just need to learn to play.

Hence why we should all ignore him; he's clearly not fit to reason.

autumnlotus wrote:
All of the above lists still rely on flyrants to do the heavy lifting. This doesn't prove they can have interesting lists when half of the list is STILL monster mash spam. That is like saying the old space marines could be competitive without ultramarines, but then post a list with Tigurius as the Warlord :/ its ignoring the main point and showing minor variations. It's how I treat chaos lists: if you don't Nurgle spam and take 2 helldrakes then its not winning nationals, and even then it plays like a impguard vetmech spam summoning daemona

Its actualy not half the list. Overstating things doesnt help. and I see two...not three...Flyrants... in the first list. three in the second and third. Either way not close to half.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:
He doesn't care that a dex is mono build. As long as it's physically capable of winning a casual game once in a while the dex is OK and you just need to learn to play.

Also: it won tournaments. So also able tyo win tournament games. Actually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

So...what exactly are you arguing? These lists aren't very unique.

Sure. Everyone takes Raveners. I see exactly what you mean.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:


So...you knew it wasn't what was being requested and not relevant and shared it anyway?
Okay...
.

That actually is unpleasant.

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

So...what exactly are you arguing? These lists aren't very unique.

Sure. Everyone takes Raveners. I see exactly what you mean.

Well, your 2015 list showed that nobody took raveners, including the same guy. Apparently he didn't think much of their performance in the new environment.

But, looking at the first list in the 2015 line up we see
690 points in Flyrants
450 points in carnies
140 points in mawlocs
225 in Tyrannocytes
So nearly 2/3's (I think just shy of 3/4ths) of his army is in MC, with the largest chunk (nearly half) being Flyrants and Mawlocs. The rest is some mines, a venomthrope, lictor....the only thing interesting in there are the shrikes. I can see them doing well in today's meta, since there is less str 8 rolling around, and haven't considered them before. Especially in a fast list like this one.
But the vast majority of the army is pretty standard.

The second list has
4 Tyrants at @ 240 a piece (So 960, nearly half of his army is flyrants)
165 in Guard
155 Crone
170 Exocrine

So 3/4 of his army, again, is in MC spam, with the majority being dedicated towards flyrants. This list has some original stuff (Gaunts, Rippers, Warriors, and Stealers) but they account for a very small fraction of the army. All those units together are...400 points? And 2 of those were probably bought for the troop tax or cheap objective holders.

Again, not an original list, and not really different from what anyone is saying. Mainly Flyrants and Mawlocs, MCs are strong, sprinkle everything else to taste. Even the 2014 list spends the vast majority of it's points in MC's, with flyrants leading the pack.

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:


So...you knew it wasn't what was being requested and not relevant and shared it anyway?
Okay...
.

That actually is unpleasant.

Sorry you took it that way, wasn't meant to be.

 Korinov wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Daemon Engines unfortunately largely are either very situational or painfully overcosted. Compare a Chaos Daemons Soul Grinder to Maulerfiend at 125, a Forgefiend at 175, or worse, a Defiler at 200pts, and one can see where they have problems.

The more I look at it and the more I think about it, the more I believe the current Chaos codex (or at least, most of it) was probably designed with 5th edition in mind, and was just released after 6th edition dropped. The Fiends would have been neat with 5th edition rules. Really hard to crack considering how durable vehicles were back then (most of the time) plus 5++ save and IWND.

This has been talked to death already around the forums, but really the Chaos dex is just stuck in 4/5th edition. The only thing that was truly fit for 6th edition was the Baledrake, and mostly because it was an autoplay unit. Also Nurgle because Nurgle is basically fit for everything.

That's pretty much exactly what happened I'm sure. The Fiends absoulutely would have been solid in 5E, as would many of the CC units, but overall, yeah, it's really built to a 5E paradigm and in many ways still very much a 4E one too, and never worked terribly effectively on its own aside from 6E baledrake spam.

Chaos Space Marines seem to be good at starting arguments based on this thread...

 War Kitten wrote:
Chaos Space Marines seem to be good at starting arguments based on this thread...

Exalted for truth.

 fallinq wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Chaos Space Marines seem to be good at starting arguments based on this thread...

Exalted for truth.

The argument being: How bad to they actually suck? Just a little or a lot?

 War Kitten wrote:
Chaos Space Marines seem to be good at starting arguments based on this thread...

Lol.

Apparently it's not enough that the weaker codexes can compete, now they have to do so while arbitarily abstaining from leveraging any power units at all. This is like an Eldar player intentionally avoiding WK/Scatterbike/Seer Council, for no reason whatsoever, and that's asinine to expect that in a tournament setting of anyone. Meanwhile Eldar players routinely rob DE for better mobility, yet CSM using allies makes the codex a fail. Um, logic? The reality is a lot of posters in this thread have started with a conclusion in mind and simply alter the facts or premise to suit their conclusion, the most flagrant offender being Slayer123's incredibly narcissistic claim of understanding the LVO champ's list better than the LVO champion who used it to win. I'm not getting in any more stupid arguments, it's time to Ignore.

@Jancoran: On a cool sidenote, there is a CSM Legacy of Ruin that gives a 6" aura to Daemon of Khorne models. So theoretically you can combo this with Cursed Earth, to get a 3++ on any Khorne Daemons that the two auras intersect. Trying to evolve your original Night Lords list, maybe the Raptors get bounced for MSU Flesh Hounds who can lead the way for solo Oblits and Mutilators, with Dirge Casters reducing overwatch, and your ICs and the Heldrake applying specialized damage where needed. You can park 1x CSM squad with a Comms Relay if reserves are an issue. And there's still possibilities for allied CD, if you want to get a Portal Glyph or Grimoire, or any other specialized support.

I think it might have potential but right now it's a pretty rough idea. Cool to think about though.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Chaos Space Marines seem to be good at starting arguments based on this thread...

Lol!

Apparently it's not enough that the weaker codexes can compete, now they have to do so while arbitarily abstaining from leveraging any power units at all.

I'm not sure if you were following the arguments, but when someone proposes a unique list that doesn't rely on the old power choices that everyone knows, people will be disappointed if it's using the old power choices everyone knows.
The night lord list uses nurgle (the only thing I haven't seen before is eye of night, which seems to work well in Jancorans meta since it's tank heavy, but wouldn't do well against most competitive lists you can find at most of the major events (check their lists for tanks or units that have HPs)) and the tryanid lists all seem to be MC spam with a heavy emphasis on Flyrants. None of these are new, innovative, or unique.

Yoyoyo wrote:

This is like an Eldar player intentionally avoiding WK/Scatterbike/Seer Council, for no reason whatsoever, and that's asinine to expect that in a tournament setting of anyone. Meanwhile Eldar players routinely rob DE for better mobility, yet CSM using allies makes the codex a fail while Eldar it's a bonus. Um, logic?

You don't see a difference between being a codex taking one unit out of another codex maybe (not every Eldar codex that competes uses DE transports) and another codex being used for flyers to compete at the competitive level?
The DE have the problem in the former example, since their main presence in competitive events is a taxi service.
The CSM have the problem in the latter example, since they are basically air support at competitive events.

The problem with those dexes is that I can take my biel-tan army (which is arguably not even close to the strongest craftworld around right now) and power build CSM and DE will still struggle against me. It should be, at worse, a fair fight.
A power build from the 3 strong dexes will obliterate CSM or DE if they are the main faction.

Yoyoyo wrote:

The reality is a lot of posters in this thread have started with a conclusion in mind and simply alter the facts or premise to suit their conclusion, the most flagrant offender being Slayer123's incredibly narcissistic claim of understanding the LVO champ's list better than the LVO champion who used it to win. I'm not getting in any more stupid arguments, it's time to Ignore.

Maybe I missed it, but it seemed the LVO champion wanted to try some different things out. What you posted looked like it came before the game, not after. The battles make it seem like the lictors main job was being a tough to remove teleport homer for the mawlocs, since they cost a lot more points to remove than they are worth. The list still relied on flyrants and mawlocs to do the actual killing, with the rest of the list being support.
The list was also before the power 3 dexes (should it be 4 now with tau?) that we see today.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Chaos Space Marines seem to be good at starting arguments based on this thread...

Lol.

Apparently it's not enough that the weaker codexes can compete, now they have to do so while arbitarily abstaining from leveraging any power units at all. This is like an Eldar player intentionally avoiding WK/Scatterbike/Seer Council, for no reason whatsoever, and that's asinine to expect that in a tournament setting of anyone. Meanwhile Eldar players routinely rob DE for better mobility, yet CSM using allies makes the codex a fail. Um, logic? The reality is a lot of posters in this thread have started with a conclusion in mind and simply alter the facts or premise to suit their conclusion, the most flagrant offender being Slayer123's incredibly narcissistic claim of understanding the LVO champ's list better than the LVO champion who used it to win. I'm not getting in any more stupid arguments, it's time to Ignore.

The arguments only seem stupid because, judging by how you're paraphrasing them, you don't understand them at all.

As I said, this argument isn't worth having. I've seen plenty of evidence from everyone already, including batreps at Sean's blog and posts from before and after LVO. The reality is I simply don't see things the way you do. As adults, we will politely agree to disagree. Those who don't want to be respected as mature adults, carry on.

Now, I can look at things that interest me much more, such as how to adapt a weaker codex like CSM to the current meta using synergies that compensate for unit strength. You know, "what CSM is good at".

Yoyoyo wrote:
As I said, this argument isn't worth having.

Then don't participate?
This is a discussion on the efficacy of CSM. Most believe that CSM is one of the worst dexes and struggles against many dexes, especially the top three. If you evidence to the contrary, please bring it forward.

Discussing the top 3 codexes is a different topic, that's changing the goalposts. Looking at efficacy involves questions like:

- What are the mission parameters and how can I address them?
- What enemy forces am I likely to see?
- What effects do I need to produce to win?
- What units do I have available to produce these effects?
- What units can produce the strongest synergies together?

At the point a concept exists, you need to trial it out to refine it and discover how it actually performs to refine it. Lictorshame is useful as it showed both a mentality, a development process, and the value of throwing an unpredictable curveball.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Discussing the top 3 codexes is a different topic, that's changing the goalposts. Looking at efficacy involves questions like:

- What are the mission parameters and how can I address them?
- What enemy forces am I likely to see?
- What effects do I need to produce to win?
- What units do I have available to produce these effects?
- What units can produce the strongest synergies together?

At the point a concept exists, you need to trial it out to refine it and discover how it actually performs to refine it. Lictorshame is useful as it showed both a mentality, a development process, and the value of throwing an unpredictable curveball.

Changing goal posts? Hardly. For CSM to be competitive, they have to be able to regularly beat the top three. Again, you haven't been paying attention to the arguments at hand. It's almost like you just jumped in at the end of the thread without reading anything going on before.

No, I paid pretty good attention. I think you're changing goalposts.

As I said, agree to disagree.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Discussing the top 3 codexes is a different topic, that's changing the goalposts.

I'm afraid I don't see how asking how CSM stack up against the top dexes is moving the goalposts.
Look at any tournament that posts the lists online in the recent months. You'll see that the top 3 dexes are the competitive meta, which is what the discussion was about.
Someone even mentioned beating the top 3 lists with CSM quite often at the competitive level, we are just currently lacking any strategies, tactics, or battle reports that detail how.

If you want to discuss how CSM stack up in a more casual meta, that's fine.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Looking at efficacy involves questions like:

- What are the mission parameters and how can I address them?

This is difficult to do, since the missions can be random or VP or something else entirely. Many tournaments use house rules for this sort of thing.
Do you have a jumping point for this?

Yoyoyo wrote:

- What enemy forces am I likely to see?

If it's a competitive setting, Eldar Necron Tau SM. Those are the strongest dexes with the strongest lists. A more casual setting will see GK, SoB, Nids, and many other armies using powerful builds while the strongest dexes tend to relax a bit. A very casual meta will see Orks, BA, CSM using their power lists while the other dexes are taking semi-competitive builds and the best dexes don't take the strong builds at all or are absent. The most casual metas will see outright bad lists.
You may want to define the meta before continuing. We have been discussing assuming a competitive setting thus far.

Yoyoyo wrote:

- What effects do I need to produce to win?

Well, in 40k that would be only a few factors;
1) Build a skew so that you are immune to most of the weapons in the enemy's army. CSM are not capable of this however.
2) Put out enough firepower to decimate the enemy at range. CSM struggle with this against most armies.
3) Use speed to grab objectives and assault enemy troops quickly. CSM can't do this against the best dexes, but manage okay against the rest.
4) Be tough and win the long game. CSM can't do this against the best dexes, but manage okay against the rest.

Defining the meta would help. 40k is not WMH, which has a strong scenario presence that requires an indepth strategy. It's either random or reliant on being much faster than the opponent.

Yoyoyo wrote:

- What units do I have available to produce these effects?

I won't cover this in detail, but the good units in the dex have been well defined. MoN everything, plague marines, noise marines, bikes, raptors, single mutilators are ok, oblits aren't bad, termicide is ok, havoks with MoT on a skyshield are hit or miss depending on the enemy, spawn with MoN are good, psykers and lords are good or needed. Tanks are mostly bad, the flyer and rhinos being exceptions.

Yoyoyo wrote:

- What units can produce the strongest synergies together?

We don't have a lot of synergies outside of psyker buffs. It's a weakness of the army.

Yoyoyo wrote:

At the point a concept exists, you need to trial it out to refine it and discover how it actually performs to refine it. Lictorshame is useful as it showed both a mentality, a development process, and the value of throwing an unpredictable curveball.

Sure, but so far no one has proposed anything original for CSM, on either side of this debate.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 fallinq wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Chaos Space Marines seem to be good at starting arguments based on this thread...

Exalted for truth.

The argument being: How bad to they actually suck? Just a little or a lot?

Precisely. THAt should have really been the way to discuss it. Not polar craziness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Chaos Space Marines seem to be good at starting arguments based on this thread...

Lol.

Apparently it's not enough that the weaker codexes can compete, now they have to do so while arbitarily abstaining from leveraging any power units at all. This is like an Eldar player intentionally avoiding WK/Scatterbike/Seer Council, for no reason whatsoever, and that's asinine to expect that in a tournament setting of anyone. Meanwhile Eldar players routinely rob DE for better mobility, yet CSM using allies makes the codex a fail. Um, logic? The reality is a lot of posters in this thread have started with a conclusion in mind and simply alter the facts or premise to suit their conclusion, the most flagrant offender being Slayer123's incredibly narcissistic claim of understanding the LVO champ's list better than the LVO champion who used it to win. I'm not getting in any more stupid arguments, it's time to Ignore.

@Jancoran: On a cool sidenote, there is a CSM Legacy of Ruin that gives a 6" aura to Daemon of Khorne models. So theoretically you can combo this with Cursed Earth, to get a 3++ on any Khorne Daemons that the two auras intersect. Trying to evolve your original Night Lords list, maybe the Raptors get bounced for MSU Flesh Hounds who can lead the way for solo Oblits and Mutilators, with Dirge Casters reducing overwatch, and your ICs and the Heldrake applying specialized damage where needed. You can park 1x CSM squad with a Comms Relay if reserves are an issue. And there's still possibilities for allied CD, if you want to get a Portal Glyph or Grimoire, or any other specialized support.

I think it might have potential but right now it's a pretty rough idea. Cool to think about though.

Hmm... That's incredibly interesting. So like you could mark the Chosen or something with Khorne and throw Sorcerers in there with that? Gosh with Khorne Dogs, that would just be too cool for school. Again, not a Night Lords list, but a viable way to make those hounds scary as hell? Fun. Real fun.

So can you PM me this since its likely to get thread-buried? Just explain it in as much detail as you can so I understand where all the pieces are coming together and so I can ponder it.

Akiasura wrote:
If you want to discuss how CSM stack up in a more casual meta, that's fine.

This is probably the best way to move this thread forward.

I would say though that the mission, terrain, houserules, etc. need to inform the list. Since we're discussing LVO a lot that's a good jumping off point.

Let's say we are facing 6x3 Scatterbikes, 2x D-cannon WKs, 2x Jetseers, 2x5 Warp Spiders, 1x WS w/5x Fire Dragons, and 1x Crimson Hunter. Pretty generic Eldar but we can discuss what CSM can bring to counter what, either solo or with allies. I'd greatly prefer this to the usual flamebait in dakka.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Chaos Space Marines seem to be good at starting arguments based on this thread...

Lol.

Apparently it's not enough that the weaker codexes can compete, now they have to do so while arbitarily abstaining from leveraging any power units at all. This is like an Eldar player intentionally avoiding WK/Scatterbike/Seer Council, for no reason whatsoever, and that's asinine to expect that in a tournament setting of anyone. Meanwhile Eldar players routinely rob DE for better mobility, yet CSM using allies makes the codex a fail. Um, logic? The reality is a lot of posters in this thread have started with a conclusion in mind and simply alter the facts or premise to suit their conclusion, the most flagrant offender being Slayer123's incredibly narcissistic claim of understanding the LVO champ's list better than the LVO champion who used it to win. I'm not getting in any more stupid arguments, it's time to Ignore.

The arguments only seem stupid because, judging by how you're paraphrasing them, you don't understand them at all.

I really don't think you're reading what he's saying. He's saying that the "Yeah but's" involve pretending like its a crime to take the good things out of the codex to justify the rationale that its bad. He's saying thats like De-fanging a cobra and then telling people how whimpy the cobra is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
If you want to discuss how CSM stack up in a more casual meta, that's fine.

This is probably the best way to move this thread forward.

I would say though that the mission, terrain, houserules, etc. need to inform the list. Since we're discussing LVO a lot that's a good jumping off point.

Let's say we are facing 6x3 Scatterbikes, 2x D-cannon WKs, 2x Jetseers, 2x5 Warp Spiders, 1x WS w/5x Fire Dragons, and 1x Crimson Hunter. Pretty generic Eldar but we can discuss what CSM can bring to counter what, eother solo or with allies. I'd greatly prefer this to the usual flamebait in dakka.

I have a friend who can do this batrep... I wonder if he'd be willing. I could make it a blog post.

 Jancoran wrote:
So can you PM me this since its likely to get thread-buried? Just explain it in as much detail as you can so I understand where all the pieces are coming together and so I can ponder it.

I barely know where it's going myself, but I'll try and scrape up an overview. Trying to find an appropriate platform for the Legacy is going to be tricky, a Heldrake would have been ideal but they are DQ'd due to being a Daemon Engine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
I really don't think you're reading what he's saying. He's saying that the "Yeah but's" involve pretending like its a crime to take the good things out of the codex to justify the rationale that its bad. He's saying thats like De-fanging a cobra and then telling people how whimpy the cobra is.

Probably best just to let that go.