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So a buddy of mine plays Tau, I play Chaos and Daemons. He suggested nerfing the Riptide himself, because in our games the only way I win is to just completely ignore it, and when he runs two no one, from any army, can win. He suggested lowering its toughness to 5, like most every monstrous creature, and its wounds to 4, like most everything else. I was wondering what your guys' opinions would be on it.

I'm going to go with a hammer again.

I'd remove the option for nova charging a 3+ invul save. Riptides main strength is how obnoxiously durable they are while still have solid damage and mobility. The durability in part is because it gets a 3++ and FNP making it incredibly hard to actually get wounds through (since even with ap2 it still is getting almost a 2+ save overall). Without the 3++, ap2 actually becomes an option to inflict some wounds (and it still is going to have 5++ and FNP).

How to make Riptide reasonable? Use it in 2000+ pts matches, if at all.

I think both the Riptide and Wraithknight are underpriced for what they can do, and it's interesting that they both came out relatively close together.

WK needs something like a 100 point increase, but the Riptide only needs a 15 point increase. It should start at 200 points and go from there.

What the tide lacks though is speed. It can maneuver, but a Knight or a bunch of grav bikes can reach it no problem.

I'm pretty sure grav weapons were made specifically to counter units like the WK and Riptide, but not every army has them, but then again, those that don't either have units that can beat a riptide to death in CC (daemons or CSM) or shoot it to death (Eldar and SM).

At least the Stormsurge is properly priced for what it does.

I have a vendetta against random Invul. Saves on big creatures - The thing with them were that they should have high Toughness and many Wounds, which means you have to dedicate big guns to them, like Plasma Cannons or Lascannons. But with Invul. saves, that just plain means nothing, since their big bonus is ignored completely. That doesn't improve with FNP either.

I think I'd be more interesting if the shield had another effect instead - What if the Armour save was reduced to a 3+, but its Shield made it so that enemy AP values are increased by one when targetting the 'Tide (So AP 2 becomes AP 3). This would make a Battle Cannon unable to ignore the Armour (For a close encounter suit, that's properbly a good thing) but would still take wounds from Lascannons and Meltas.

Is it just a special 2+ save? Yeah. But at least the standard save isn't fukken Terminator-grade.

I think the simplest fix would probably be to simply change their armor to a 3+. That puts them in the same ball park as Tyranid MCs, but they'll still have the option to get an invul and FNP. Which seems reasonable to me. Ask any marine player, and he'll tell you how easy it is to fail a 3+ save. Making it a 3+ save also means a larger variety of weapons will ignore the save entirely. The invul and FNP still make it pretty durable, but you risk hurting yourself to get that 3+ save, and FNP, while very nice, isn't reliable at all.

Making their armor save a 3+ leaves the riptide in the same niche without taking away their toys or requiring that people come up with complicated new rules (fun as those are), but it still brings down the riptide's durability quite a bit.

Plus considering that the Stormsurge is also a 3+, this does make more sense overall...

I'd agree on the 3+ save but not the toughness. Most MCs are actually T6, the Daemon Prince is rather odd at T5, though there are a few others (the Tau Ghostkeel, Tyranid Harpy/Crone come to mind offhand). Most Tyranid MCs are also W5 or W6. W4 is actually kinda uncommon, too (though Eldar, Necrons and DE all get some W3 MCs, but those are T7/T8).
I'd also lose the nova-charge 3++ and replace it with "Gain Counter-Attack until the next game turn" or something akin to that.

Do note that the Riptide does have a sort of defense against grav-guns: shielded missile drones will give the unit a majority 4+ armor save. They're expensive, though, and not all that difficult to kill, so...

Honestly one of the things they should have changed to make hammerhead tanks be able to compete on some level with suits was to swap the Ion Cannon from the Hammerhead with the Ion Accelerator from the Riptide. Now the Hammerhead has a pretty good base weapon compared to the Railgun and has extra utility with the gets hot! S8 AP2 large blast. At the same time this nerfs the output of the riptide to a much more reasonable degree and compensates for their ridiculous degree of survivability. It also actually forces them to be risky for nova charges to make the ion cannon do more damage while also making it so that the HBC isn't completely invalidated.

 Grimskul wrote:
Honestly one of the things they should have changed to make hammerhead tanks be able to compete on some level with suits was to swap the Ion Cannon from the Hammerhead with the Ion Accelerator from the Riptide. Now the Hammerhead has a pretty good base weapon compared to the Railgun and has extra utility with the gets hot! S8 AP2 large blast. At the same time this nerfs the output of the riptide to a much more reasonable degree and compensates for their ridiculous degree of survivability. It also actually forces them to be risky for nova charges to make the ion cannon do more damage while also making it so that the HBC isn't completely invalidated.

The railgun is a staple weapon of the Tau, and it really isn't that good anymore. If it had Lance, it would be a legitimate option instead of what it is now.

The Tide is about 50ish points undercosted. The ion accelerator another 30-40 when put on that chassis. When it came out, it was crazy good, but nowadays there are plenty of models just as OP.

 McNinja wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Honestly one of the things they should have changed to make hammerhead tanks be able to compete on some level with suits was to swap the Ion Cannon from the Hammerhead with the Ion Accelerator from the Riptide. Now the Hammerhead has a pretty good base weapon compared to the Railgun and has extra utility with the gets hot! S8 AP2 large blast. At the same time this nerfs the output of the riptide to a much more reasonable degree and compensates for their ridiculous degree of survivability. It also actually forces them to be risky for nova charges to make the ion cannon do more damage while also making it so that the HBC isn't completely invalidated.

The railgun is a staple weapon of the Tau, and it really isn't that good anymore. If it had Lance, it would be a legitimate option instead of what it is now.

Oh for sure, the railgun is only "okay" if you take Longstrike and at that point its no longer cost efficient. I was surprised they didn't give it armourbane or even ordnance.

Okay, this is going to be a bit on the longer side of things so bare with me here. The problems with the Riptide are actually more on a design side than the actual numbers involved with it. It’s problematic design inherently makes it binary to balance because it will either be amazing or terrible and there isn’t really an in-between. They are also not on the defensive side, as most would have you believe, but on the offensive one. First, you have two main weapon choices where one is clearly superior to the other nine times out of ten - Bad. The offending weapon in question is way too generally effective against everything, has too much range, and has a particularly egregious use case scenario - Interceptor Iontide anyone? Second, it’s unique mechanic is poorly balanced in that it’s different options don’t offer even remotely equal benefits.

- 3+ invuln: hell yes.
- 4d6 thrust move: situational but useful.
- 2 shots with the secondary: again situational and less useful.
- main weapon novacharge options: almost always bad.

With things set up this way is it any surprise that the user will pretty much always use the shield when they Nova Charge?

So, how do we actually fix this? Well first, let’s look at the Riptides design paradigm. The three big stompy suits Tau now have are clearly meant to be uber versions of their smaller cousins. Riptide = Crisis Suit+1. Ghostkeel = Stealth Suit+1… etc. The problem is that the riptide is it’s commonly taken form does not actually fill a similar role. Instead, it’s basically a super tanky artillery platform. This is a terrible design paradigm because it’s optimal use scenario encourages minimal if any interaction with your opponent - BAD. I mean, Crisis Suits don’t actually get many complaints because at least your opponent can react to them in a meaningful way with their short range. Therefore, my changes will focus on trying to push the Riptide into a Crisis+1 role and create meaningful choice and interaction for both the player and the opponent.

1. Base price becomes 210 points and stats are unchanged and both main weapon options are free to choose between. This makes the 'decked out' Interceptor FNP Riptide everyone fears 250 points.

2. The weapon profiles for the two main guns are changing to have unique roles. The HBC stays the same with the exception that it’s Nova Charge profile loses Gets Hot. The weapon is actually really well balanced as is except for that fact which is why no one ever Nova Charges it because having your weapon now have twelve chances to Get Hot on you after you just had to roll a one in three chance for it with only your FNP is just a poor risk/reward system. The IA gets a much bigger change. It becomes 36’ range/S9/AP2/Heavy 3 and loses its overcharge profile. The Nova Charge version becomes Heavy 5.

Here is the idea behind these changes:
The cost has been upped to the point that, combined with the changes to their offensive options, they are not strictly the most point efficient on offense with their base weapons compared to other options in the Tau codex. This means they are less likely to be spammed and better fit into a ‘more defense/less dakka’ role that the big stuff on the board should represent.

The changes to the IA have now pushed its use into heavy hunting with it being bad at infantry and hordes. With the HBC now being a good choice rather than a strictly inferior one, the two weapons now become specialized for the role you want your Riptide to fill. This also has a nice effect of making the secondary weapon system choice on the Riptide far more important than it currently is. The 36’ max range on both main guns also puts you within a much more reasonable distance of the enemy. In fact, given the low shots on a IA and the S6/AP4 profile on the HBC, you are now going to need to actually use your secondary weapons to get good killing power for the points out of these guys. That means being close enough to actually be within decent charge range. This creates much better risk/reward.

Finally, the ridiculous tankyness of the model is fixed indirectly by removing a lot of it’s offensive punch and increasing its points cost. Nova Charging should be amazing and make your opponent sweat. The problem is that Riptides are currently too effective without ever using it offensively. With these changes, you need to be overcharging your guns to be getting your points worth of dakka from this model. This creates actual choice for the player. Everything I’m changing is to create risk/reward and interaction with your opponent.

 ObjectivelyBiased wrote:
SNAP

Very interesting thought. Exalted.

Turn it into a vehicle, walker, with 13 Front and Side Armor, and Rear 12 armor. 5++ save if you want.

Do something similar to every other MC out there that should not be a MC, i.e. Wraithknights, Dreadknights and the like. Let only actual "monstruous creatures" be MCs and have MC rules.

I'd even make the MC status an upgrade option for Daemon Princes, not even mandatory. Daemon Princes should go back to what they were in 3rd edition.

Really, most of the Riptide's strengths comes from hte fact that it's an MC. I'm in the "Make it a Walker" camp too, at this point... I'd want it to be 12 all around instead, though, mostly because it's very tough to decide what sides are front and such. It would be cool of the Shield gave a higher AV on the side it's placed on, though.

I do think it'd be better to make the Explodes! result into 1d3 HPs, mostly to make it less perilous for a HP 6 Walker to get hit by a powerful weapon. Would also help some of the other Vehicles, especially things like Trukks.

 ObjectivelyBiased wrote:
<snip>
1. Base price becomes 210 points and stats are unchanged and both main weapon options are free to choose between. This makes the 'decked out' Interceptor FNP Riptide everyone fears 250 points.

2. The weapon profiles for the two main guns are changing to have unique roles. The HBC stays the same with the exception that it’s Nova Charge profile loses Gets Hot. The weapon is actually really well balanced as is except for that fact which is why no one ever Nova Charges it because having your weapon now have twelve chances to Get Hot on you after you just had to roll a one in three chance for it with only your FNP is just a poor risk/reward system. The IA gets a much bigger change. It becomes 36’ range/S9/AP2/Heavy 3 and loses its overcharge profile. The Nova Charge version becomes Heavy 5.
<snip>

I really like this idea overall and might just try it as a house rule in my next few games (hey, we're probably testing a massively house-ruled Dark Eldar setup anyway, so...). It fits pretty closely with how I like to run the Riptide anyway, which I think is why I hear very little complaining from most of my opponents. Hammernators, Genestealers, Harlequins, Fire Dragons and that sort of thing deal with it pretty well, provided you can get close enough to use them - and, if it's sitting back in the corner pie-plate-puking with the ion accelerator, you can't. That leaves many armies almost unable to deal with the Riptide at all, or having to use up all their anti-tank just to dent it. Forcing it to operate up closer, generally within range of most high-volume guns and possibly within charge range does make it easier to handle, but still effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Korinov wrote:
Turn it into a vehicle, walker, with 13 Front and Side Armor, and Rear 12 armor. 5++ save if you want.

Do something similar to every other MC out there that should not be a MC, i.e. Wraithknights, Dreadknights and the like. Let only actual "monstruous creatures" be MCs and have MC rules.

I'd even make the MC status an upgrade option for Daemon Princes, not even mandatory. Daemon Princes should go back to what they were in 3rd edition.

My beef with this is that now, you need S7 just to even maybe hurt it, whereas the current T6 version can be hurt by lasguns (OK, barely, but I have actually lost a Riptide to Prescience+Misfortune+FRFSRF) . Also, there are currently no such things as Jump or Jet Pack walkers. The Wraithknight could be a superheavy and just get Deep Strike, and that would be that, but for the rest, you'd need new rules or it'd be a big nerf. Ok, MCs can't be pinned, but walkers can't either. It would lose Smash. That's probably significant for the Wraithlord and Wraithknight. The Riptide sucks in melee anyway, even with AP2, and the Dreadknight has AP2 weapons anyway.

If we're gonna change types, make it Jet Pack Infantry.

Making it Jet Pack Infantry and thus losing some of the inherent MC cheese would be only a partial solution, I'm afraid, because all in all a Riptide would still be a vehicle with "flesh" rules (wounds and all that). It's a freaking robot controlled by a pilot. It should have never been a Monstruous Creature, because it's no "creature" to begin with.

My biggest concern with overpowered MCs in the game is that most of them should not be MCs. The current divergence between walker vehicles and the so called "monstruous creatures" is one of the examples that prove what an utter mess the current rules are. We have bipedal robots with vehicle rules, side by side with bipedal robots with MC rules, and absolutely nobody has ever been able to logically explain why (despite the most ardent efforts of the most ardents GW white knights). Furthermore, bipedal robots with MC rules are so much better in game terms that bipedal robots with vehicle rules, as they cannot be exploded, inmobilized, have their weapons destroyed or be forced to fire snap-shots. Also while they're a bit easier to "wound", they have armor saves and as such in the end are way more resilent and durable. Further on, thanks to the smash rule, they don't even need close combat weapons to always strike with AP2. If I pay extra points to give a dreadnough two mid/long range shooting weapons, or if its cc weapons are destroyed during the battle, it's stuck with a few AP- attacks. MCs never face such bothers, they're always 100% operative no matter the odds.

This was already a bit difficult to digest from actual living, monstruous creatures, but now we basically have two kind of bipedal robots ingame: the ones who kick ass, and the ones who suck ass. And the main, big difference between them is the label "MC" arbitrarily slapped over some of them.

I personally think that the vehicle rules, as they currently stand, are incoherent and a giant mess from hell. I'd prefer to see everything using Toughness and Wounds (or, call them Hull Points, Durability Points, whatever makes sense; I agree that "Wounds" for a vehicle sounds weird). Then have "vehicle" as a special rule and Melta, Armorbane, Fleshbane, Poisoned etc modified accordingly, lose the Damage Chart (fluffy, but a pain in the neck) and replace "double Toughness is ID" with "double Toughness is 2W".

 Korinov wrote:
Making it Jet Pack Infantry and thus losing some of the inherent MC cheese would be only a partial solution, I'm afraid, because all in all a Riptide would still be a vehicle with "flesh" rules (wounds and all that). It's a freaking robot controlled by a pilot. It should have never been a Monstruous Creature, because it's no "creature" to begin with.

My biggest concern with overpowered MCs in the game is that most of them should not be MCs. The current divergence between walker vehicles and the so called "monstruous creatures" is one of the examples that prove what an utter mess the current rules are. We have bipedal robots with vehicle rules, side by side with bipedal robots with MC rules, and absolutely nobody has ever been able to logically explain why (despite the most ardent efforts of the most ardents GW white knights). Furthermore, bipedal robots with MC rules are so much better in game terms that bipedal robots with vehicle rules, as they cannot be exploded, inmobilized, have their weapons destroyed or be forced to fire snap-shots. Also while they're a bit easier to "wound", they have armor saves and as such in the end are way more resilent and durable. Further on, thanks to the smash rule, they don't even need close combat weapons to always strike with AP2. If I pay extra points to give a dreadnough two mid/long range shooting weapons, or if its cc weapons are destroyed during the battle, it's stuck with a few AP- attacks. MCs never face such bothers, they're always 100% operative no matter the odds.

This was already a bit difficult to digest from actual living, monstruous creatures, but now we basically have two kind of bipedal robots ingame: the ones who kick ass, and the ones who suck ass. And the main, big difference between them is the label "MC" arbitrarily slapped over some of them.

Because GW realized that vehicle rules suck ass in this game.

Aside from that, following the logic that a battlesuit is a MC, what would a Crisis suit be? If it is infantry, why would something that is simply a larger crisis suit not be an MC? Unless you want to make crisis suits walkers as well, it's simply GW being consistent. For once.

Crisis are infantry because, although big, they're still within the realms of "humanoid" sizes. They're infantry just because Terminators are infantry.

A Riptide is not humanoid sized. It's a freaking mecha, with its pilot and all that. It's freaking huge. The Broadside should be a walker too, as long as Dreadnoughts are.

The Riptide should be a Monstrous creature because its supposed to move and behave more like a less extreme version of Michael Bay's transformers as opposed star war's AT-AT or AT-ST.

The 2+ is fine because its an heavy assault suit. It shouldn't be 3+ because its doesn't rely on stealth and it doesn't have a hole in the roof of the cockpit, Also it has a massive shield which has to count for something.

For durability I'd just say don't let it take FNP. I run my Riptide without FNP cause I'm not TFG and therefore don't use the nova reactor much and opponents have killed it plenty of times with plasma and AP2 CC weapons. Remove FNP, nova reactor is more dangerous, less 3++.

As for the weapons, remove Gets Hot from the burst cannon so people actually use it and maybe reduce the range of the ion accelerator down to about 30" instead of 72" to make it less like artillery.

At least without FNP the riptide shouldn't be a problem.

Taffy17 wrote:
The Riptide should be a Monstrous creature because its supposed to move and behave more like a less extreme version of Michael Bay's transformers as opposed star war's AT-AT or AT-ST.

The 2+ is fine because its an heavy assault suit. It shouldn't be 3+ because its doesn't rely on stealth and it doesn't have a hole in the roof of the cockpit, Also it has a massive shield which has to count for something.

For durability I'd just say don't let it take FNP. I run my Riptide without FNP cause I'm not TFG and therefore don't use the nova reactor much and opponents have killed it plenty of times with plasma and AP2 CC weapons. Remove FNP, nova reactor is more dangerous, less 3++.

As for the weapons, remove Gets Hot from the burst cannon so people actually use it and maybe reduce the range of the ion accelerator down to about 30" instead of 72" to make it less like artillery.

At least without FNP the riptide shouldn't be a problem.

I think this is a viable option! We'll run a few games with it and see how it works out

 niv-mizzet wrote:
The Tide is about 50ish points undercosted. The ion accelerator another 30-40 when put on that chassis. When it came out, it was crazy good, but nowadays there are plenty of models just as OP.

Really lol? You think it should be 270 without any upgrades? Thats absurd. That is approaching imperial knight / wraith knight point range


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Korinov wrote:
Crisis are infantry because, although big, they're still within the realms of "humanoid" sizes. They're infantry just because Terminators are infantry.

A Riptide is not humanoid sized. It's a freaking mecha, with its pilot and all that. It's freaking huge. The Broadside should be a walker too, as long as Dreadnoughts are.

Dreadnoughts are slow, lumbering machines. Riptides are quick, mobile, assault units and thus should not be labeled the same

CrownAxe wrote:I'd remove the option for nova charging a 3+ invul save. Riptides main strength is how obnoxiously durable they are while still have solid damage and mobility. The durability in part is because it gets a 3++ and FNP making it incredibly hard to actually get wounds through (since even with ap2 it still is getting almost a 2+ save overall). Without the 3++, ap2 actually becomes an option to inflict some wounds (and it still is going to have 5++ and FNP).

Personally, i almost never use the 3++ save. Ever. I think ive done it once in the past year or so and that was because i was facing Eldar wraithspam. Outside that, i never feel i need it. My iontides virtually never use nova charge.

And that right there is what i think is the problem. Bursttide is balanced because he has a huge risk vs reward. The gun is meh without nova charge, damn good with it but with 12 Gets Hot threats (yes that does go through 2+ armor when theres THAT many of them). Whenever i field a bursttide, typically 2 of his wounds vanish to nova fails and he gets picked off when my opponent notices hes hurting.

The problem to me isnt the model itself, its the ion accelerator. ion Weapons are pretty much identical outside rate of attack and rifles being slightly weaker, but the IA is the ONLY ONE that is AP2 for some reason even without Overcharge or Novacharge.

The IA should be nerfed to AP3 with normal shots / Overcharge, and require the Novacharge to get AP2. It shouldnt be stock better than the Ionhead's weapon considering the gun is the same size and uses the same type of technology (ion), but due to the Nova Reactor it should have potential to be better at a risk of losing a wound. The fact that it pens all armor without nova charge risk is a bit much.

 Crimson Willy wrote:
How to Make the Riptide Reasonable

Step 1: Buy C:SM
Step 2: Use that as a substitute CSM codex
Step 3: Grav Cents "Obliterators" in Drop Pods.

The riptide isn't that bad off, mostly it is the jsj it has and the interceptor upgrade that make it seem unfair.

Also, you get armor saves against gets hot. So the twelve shots should get you two 2+ saves to make at best. Not that big a deal.

Wraithknight is too cheap, but it should definitely remain a creature. It has living would powering it and no form of engine or mechanical bits operating in any fashion. The riptide and nemesis dreadnaught can go with walker though. Riptide would be 12/12/11 with 5 hullpoints if you wanted it to do what it does as a walker.

Taffy17 wrote:The Riptide should be a Monstrous creature because its supposed to move and behave more like a less extreme version of Michael Bay's transformers as opposed star war's AT-AT or AT-ST.

notredameguy10 wrote:Dreadnoughts are slow, lumbering machines. Riptides are quick, mobile, assault units and thus should not be labeled the same

At the end of the day a Riptide is a giant robot with a humanoid pilot inside. I don't see why it should be labeled any different than a IG Sentinel. Both of them should be walker vehicles. The higher mobility and agility of the Riptide can be easily represented ingame with better movement abilities and certain perks (i.e. can only receive shots at the rear if inmobilised).

I understand Tau players simply do not want to part ways with their cheese, but no matter how you look at it, either all of the giant robots are walkers or all of them are MCs. Specially when MCs have far superior rules if compared with equivalent vehicles.

 Korinov wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:The Riptide should be a Monstrous creature because its supposed to move and behave more like a less extreme version of Michael Bay's transformers as opposed star war's AT-AT or AT-ST.

notredameguy10 wrote:Dreadnoughts are slow, lumbering machines. Riptides are quick, mobile, assault units and thus should not be labeled the same

At the end of the day a Riptide is a giant robot with a humanoid pilot inside. I don't see why it should be labeled any different than a IG Sentinel. Both of them should be walker vehicles. The higher mobility and agility of the Riptide can be easily represented ingame with better movement abilities and certain perks (i.e. can only receive shots at the rear if inmobilised).

I understand Tau players simply do not want to part ways with their cheese, but no matter how you look at it, either all of the giant robots are walkers or all of them are MCs. Specially when MCs have far superior rules if compared with equivalent vehicles.

If that was the case marines should be using vehicle rules too since they are in powered suit that emp should be able to destroy. How about necrons too? The game designers did mentioned how they used vehicle rules before to try out the suits but couldn't find a way to fit them the way they envisioned how it would perform therefore they made it the way it is.

And also, its not that the riptide is unreasonable, its just that chaos marines aren't as great now. Daemons are still fine though, and you can win him without any nerfs easily if you have the right target priority. Kill his markerlights, and stay in cover. Summon more daemons to capture objectives or send screamers to force him to target it. Play to objectives and you will start to realise, even a riptide has to be forced to charge sometimes.