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 Kanluwen wrote:

 Anemone wrote:
@Kanluwen: I don't have a particular problem with her killing a Chapter Master.

It's not a problem with her killing a Chapter Master, it's who the Chapter Master was. The Master of Shadows of the Raven Guard, Corvin Severax.
We're talking about the Chapter Master of the Chapter famed for its skill in guerilla warfare and stealth tactics killed by some jumped up xenos in a stealth suit.

I think it's more fair to say that a Xenos whose name is synomous with stealth and ambush tactics in a large robot killed a space marine chapter master who abandoned his training in guerilla warfare and stealth in favor of brute force to attack her.

 warboss wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Anemone wrote:
@Kanluwen: I don't have a particular problem with her killing a Chapter Master.

It's not a problem with her killing a Chapter Master, it's who the Chapter Master was. The Master of Shadows of the Raven Guard, Corvin Severax.
We're talking about the Chapter Master of the Chapter famed for its skill in guerilla warfare and stealth tactics killed by some jumped up xenos in a stealth suit.

I think it's more fair to say that a Xenos whose name is synomous with stealth and ambush tactics in a large robot killed a space marine chapter master who abandoned his training in guerilla warfare and stealth in favor of brute force to attack her.

At least you got my point.

People like to whine and moan about Ward, but that fluff? This campaign book was awful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Anemone wrote:
@Kanluwen: I don't have a particular problem with her killing a Chapter Master.

It's not a problem with her killing a Chapter Master, it's who the Chapter Master was. The Master of Shadows of the Raven Guard, Corvin Severax.
We're talking about the Chapter Master of the Chapter famed for its skill in guerilla warfare and stealth tactics killed by some jumped up xenos in a stealth suit.

Yeah, that would be as bad as some random space marine yahoo alone and unaided carving his initials on the daemon primarch of the Death Guard's heart.

Case in point.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Anemone wrote:
@Kanluwen: I don't have a particular problem with her killing a Chapter Master.

It's not a problem with her killing a Chapter Master, it's who the Chapter Master was. The Master of Shadows of the Raven Guard, Corvin Severax.
We're talking about the Chapter Master of the Chapter famed for its skill in guerilla warfare and stealth tactics killed by some jumped up xenos in a stealth suit.

I think it's more fair to say that a Xenos whose name is synomous with stealth and ambush tactics in a large robot killed a space marine chapter master who abandoned his training in guerilla warfare and stealth in favor of brute force to attack her.

At least you got my point.

People like to whine and moan about Ward, but that fluff? This campaign book was awful.

I can't comment on the overall fluff in that but you made it sound like the newly introduced Shas'vre No'Body of Stealth Team Random got in a lucky shot and killed the chapter master. He got killed by THE top level faction military genius commander for that faction armed with a vastly larger and more powerful suit of weapons and armor. Besides, he doesn't have a figure. You knew he wouldn't survive deep down! I suspect Shrike and Khan will survive forever for that reason along with Shadowsun. I was frankly really disappointed when no one but a random "we introduced him here just so we could kill him" white scar died in that Damocles book of 4 short stories/adverts for the knight and riptide.

 warboss wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Anemone wrote:
@Kanluwen: I don't have a particular problem with her killing a Chapter Master.

It's not a problem with her killing a Chapter Master, it's who the Chapter Master was. The Master of Shadows of the Raven Guard, Corvin Severax.
We're talking about the Chapter Master of the Chapter famed for its skill in guerilla warfare and stealth tactics killed by some jumped up xenos in a stealth suit.

I think it's more fair to say that a Xenos whose name is synomous with stealth and ambush tactics in a large robot killed a space marine chapter master who abandoned his training in guerilla warfare and stealth in favor of brute force to attack her.

At least you got my point.

People like to whine and moan about Ward, but that fluff? This campaign book was awful.

I can't comment on the overall fluff in that but you made it sound like the newly introduced Shas'vre No'Body of Stealth Team Random got in a lucky shot and killed the chapter master.

For all intents and purposes? That's exactly what happened. You get this fight between him and someone wearing Shadowsun's armor...only to find out in the next two pages that:


It's just dumb

He got killed by THE top level faction military genius commander for that faction armed with a vastly larger and more powerful suit of weapons and armor.

He got killed by a jumped up xenos wearing a Ghostkeel. Seriously. That's all it is.

The guy who headed a Chapter known for having independent Captains, the guy who headed a Chapter known for having people operating on Tyranid occupied planets, the guy who has organized Kill-Teams for hunting down and assassinating enemy commanders...

Somehow didn't notice that there were more than one of a specific set of armor planetside?
Hell, it only gets worse when you realize that he only gets involved when he gets voxed from Scout Teams that Shadowsun was spotted on the field.

Besides, he doesn't have a figure. You knew he wouldn't survive deep down!

Oh yeah, I knew. I'm just exceedingly disappointed by it. It could have been a far, far more interesting piece but nope.

I suspect Shrike and Khan will survive forever for that reason along with Shadowsun.

Would far, far rather they have killed off Shrike. I hate his model--and I hate the fact that I can basically guarantee you that he'll get "Chapter Master Kayvaan Shrike" rules in the next book, and come standard with the Relic Jump Pack and Lightning Claws from this book.

I was frankly really disappointed when no one but a random "we introduced him here just so we could kill him" white scar died in that Damocles book of 4 short stories/adverts for the knight and riptide.

But, again, that's a very different situation than we had here.

A random White Scar is not a Chapter Master.

Sounds cool, almost like a real depiction of war. Were sometimes the best will eat a bullet from the worse out of pure bad luck.

I like my 40k stories were the brightest lights of the Imperiun get snuffed out.

Besides it will never be as bad as Phil Kelly's Calgar man handling a Necron pylon to shred a Necron army then Caito doing a finger roll lay up with a vortex grenade and killing a C'tan across the battlefield (a being mind you that can not get sucked into the warp). So that the Ultras could reverse a compelling grim dark defeat at the hands of the Necrons. Also they did it with around less than 1% of the forces their vastly superior enemy had.

 Kanluwen wrote:

He got killed by a jumped up xenos wearing a Ghostkeel. Seriously. That's all it is.

Well, if we're simplifying things to that extreme... all she did was kill a human abusing steroids in power armor... seriously... That's it! Perhaps the fluff of the previous book deserves it's own thread as it is derailing this one (and I apologize for my part in that). Either way, he's dead and the imperium is out for vengence!!... against someone else in the next book.

Stay on topic folks. I don't want to get a mod. It's perfectly cool if you go and start a discussion though. I would join in.

 Gamgee wrote:
Stay on topic folks. I don't want to get a mod. It's perfectly cool if you go and start a discussion though. I would join in.

No need to tell mom. We've already taken it to pm.

What the feth? The DEldar kidnapped Farsight? The fething pansy emo elves kidnapped the my favorite character in the setting?

...Get the Riptides, boys, we're going in!

 Verviedi wrote:
What the feth? The DEldar kidnapped Farsight? The fething pansy emo elves kidnapped the my favorite character in the setting?

...Get the Riptides, boys, we're going in!

GIT SOME! Shas

Nothing worse than Deldar refusing to disappear from the game and fluff.

 Verviedi wrote:
What the feth? The DEldar kidnapped Farsight? The fething pansy emo elves kidnapped the my favorite character in the setting?

...Get the Riptides, boys, we're going in!

I don't think so. They did kidnap that close combat Tau ethereal whose name escapes me at the moment and forced him to fight in the Commoragh gladiatorial pits though. I suspect that is what is being referred to.

...Farsight has given that guy his approval. That single act makes him more badass than most of the special characters in the setting.

RAZE THE DARK CITY TO THE GROOOOOOUND!

Aun-shi is pretty bad ass. Holding his own against and ork horde and winning, and he's basically grandpa age at this point (like someone in their 70s).

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Sounds cool, almost like a real depiction of war. Were sometimes the best will eat a bullet from the worse out of pure bad luck.

I like my 40k stories were the brightest lights of the Imperiun get snuffed out.

I wonder how many chapter masters in the history of the Imperium have died due to equipment malfunction. Like their Thunderhawk lost power and they crashed. The end. Oh the indignity!

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Anemone wrote:
@Kanluwen: I don't have a particular problem with her killing a Chapter Master.

It's not a problem with her killing a Chapter Master, it's who the Chapter Master was. The Master of Shadows of the Raven Guard, Corvin Severax.
We're talking about the Chapter Master of the Chapter famed for its skill in guerilla warfare and stealth tactics killed by some jumped up xenos in a stealth suit.

Yeah, that would be as bad as some random space marine yahoo alone and unaided carving his initials on the daemon primarch of the Death Guard's heart.

I also want to point out Farsight is more the equivalent of the bad enough dudes to rescue the president. Shadowsun is just lamer in comparison.

Shadowsun is a badass. Farsight is an ultrabadass. Some two bit chapter master isn't going to be enough.

 warboss wrote:
Don't be silly... they'd need to throw in a finecast set of 5 different chapter shoulder pads for the other side and subsequently double the price. THAT would be GW's version of a Deathwatch Kill Team.

The Deathwatch Kill-Team box consists of 1 box of Sternguard, 1 box of Vanguard, 1 each of the Space Wolf, Ultramarine, Dark Angel and Blood Angel Chapter Upgrade Sprues, and 10 highly detailed Deathwatch shoulder pads. All for the price of exactly these items if you bought them normally.


"But what about Deathwatch from other Chapters?" you say.

Yeah. What about them?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Anemone wrote:
@Kanluwen: I don't have a particular problem with her killing a Chapter Master.

It's not a problem with her killing a Chapter Master, it's who the Chapter Master was. The Master of Shadows of the Raven Guard, Corvin Severax.
We're talking about the Chapter Master of the Chapter famed for its skill in guerilla warfare and stealth tactics killed by some jumped up xenos in a stealth suit.

Yeah, that would be as bad as some random space marine yahoo alone and unaided carving his initials on the daemon primarch of the Death Guard's heart.

I also want to point out Farsight is more the equivalent of the bad enough dudes to rescue the president. Shadowsun is just lamer in comparison.

I very much like this comparison. Farsight was right!

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

I wonder how many chapter masters in the history of the Imperium have died due to equipment malfunction. Like their Thunderhawk lost power and they crashed. The end. Oh the indignity!

I have a feeling the Celestial Lions lost a few Chapter Masters this way.

... At least 'officially'...

Most Ultramarines Chapter Masters die from paper cuts from all the forms they need to fill in

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Don't be silly... they'd need to throw in a finecast set of 5 different chapter shoulder pads for the other side and subsequently double the price. THAT would be GW's version of a Deathwatch Kill Team.

The Deathwatch Kill-Team box consists of 1 box of Sternguard, 1 box of Vanguard, 1 each of the Space Wolf, Ultramarine, Dark Angel and Blood Angel Chapter Upgrade Sprues, and 10 highly detailed Deathwatch shoulder pads. All for the price of exactly these items if you bought them normally.


"But what about Deathwatch from other Chapters?" you say.

Yeah. What about them?

You forgot to throw in the Stormraven for the Sternguard. And the limited edition dataslate (200 copies only) giving the Sternguard Str D special ammunition. And of course the Stormraven and Vanguard get no scatter Deep Strike, the Vanguard can charge the turn they arrive, you choose what turn they come in, the Sternguard get Split Fire, prevent overwatch and interceptor, etc, etc - you know, the usual.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Anemone wrote:
@Kanluwen: I don't have a particular problem with her killing a Chapter Master.

It's not a problem with her killing a Chapter Master, it's who the Chapter Master was. The Master of Shadows of the Raven Guard, Corvin Severax.
We're talking about the Chapter Master of the Chapter famed for its skill in guerilla warfare and stealth tactics killed by some jumped up xenos in a stealth suit.

Yeah, that would be as bad as some random space marine yahoo alone and unaided carving his initials on the daemon primarch of the Death Guard's heart.

Thank you! This is how I see it.
It's totally cool when a Space Marine commander kills an Avatar of Khaine in close combat, but a genius Tau prodigy of godlike tactical acumen kills a Space Marine Chapter Master and suddenly there's a problem with it being "unrealistic".

It's long overdue that Space Marines be marginalized. 40k becomes more interesting when SMs don't win every encounter.

It isn't that the Marines lost, it's that who died to who and because of what.

Sounds similar to when a SM walks up and stabs an Eldar Aspect Warrior who was dodging bullets just minutes before.

 Archonate wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Anemone wrote:
@Kanluwen: I don't have a particular problem with her killing a Chapter Master.

It's not a problem with her killing a Chapter Master, it's who the Chapter Master was. The Master of Shadows of the Raven Guard, Corvin Severax.
We're talking about the Chapter Master of the Chapter famed for its skill in guerilla warfare and stealth tactics killed by some jumped up xenos in a stealth suit.

Yeah, that would be as bad as some random space marine yahoo alone and unaided carving his initials on the daemon primarch of the Death Guard's heart.

Thank you! This is how I see it.
It's totally cool when a Space Marine commander kills an Avatar of Khaine in close combat, but a genius Tau prodigy of godlike tactical acumen kills a Space Marine Chapter Master and suddenly there's a problem with it being "unrealistic".

When Shadowsun becomes exclusively trained in hunting the Raven Guard and specifically geared to hunt the Raven Guard to the extent that Grey Knights are for hunting the Daemonic then you and Abadabadoobaddon would have a point.

What happened with Shadowsun wasn't "tactical acumen". She sent out 10 subordinates in armor that matched her known armor, and apparently lucked out that the Raven Guard Chapter Master went after the same one she staked out.
It would be like if you're a cryptozoologist out hiking in the woods in Ohio and come across a dead Sasquatch--the stars have to align perfectly in order for this to happen, and to pretend that it was your research that led you to that spot was disingenuous.

It's long overdue that Space Marines be marginalized. 40k becomes more interesting when SMs don't win every encounter.

The Imperium rarely wins any wars, so what does it matter if Space Marines win some encounters?

Well I'm just glad that she killed him in the way all space marine superhero yahoos ought to cack it. Blown in half with a big ol' gun. "I'mma kill you xenos! Oh wait. I'm dead." Such heroic nonsense...

Archonate wrote:
It's long overdue that Space Marines be marginalized. 40k becomes more interesting when SMs don't win every encounter.

Right, because the Crimson Fists nearly being wiped out by Orks, the Blood Angels and nearly ALL of their Successors being brought to half strength fighting the Tyranids, Ultramarines barely repelling the Tyranids during the Tyrannic Wars, and the Lamenters...oh the Lamenters aren't examples of the Space Marines getting laid low? Get over yourself. There are few if any stories where the Space Marines win without great cost to their Chapter. The fact that two First Founding Chapters we're laid low in a single campaign book is too much.

Farsight is the only Tau character that is interesting. I hope he gets a new model. Had I done more research at the time I was getting into the game, I would probably be running an FSE army instead one of my Marines. I would have painted up all the subordinates in Zaku Green (Crisis Suits), Dom Violet (Broadsides), and Gelgoog Green and Gray (Riptides). Because Farsight is definitely Char.

Those poor Raven Guard. I guess Isstvan just wasn't enough for the sons of Corvus.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Archonate wrote:

It's long overdue that Space Marines be marginalized. 40k becomes more interesting when SMs don't win every encounter.

The Imperium rarely wins any wars, so what does it matter if Space Marines win some encounters?

The beauty of 40k is that *nobody* ever comes close to winning the war It's pretty much doom and gloom for everyone... no matter how many battles you win, it doesn't matter: you're screwed, because something worse is just around the corner! It just seems that the grass is greener on the other side, for a little bit. Until a drop pod lands on it or a D-Cannon turns it into a crater, anyhow!

 Kanluwen wrote:
What happened with Shadowsun wasn't "tactical acumen". She sent out 10 subordinates in armor that matched her known armor, and apparently lucked out that the Raven Guard Chapter Master went after the same one she staked out.
It would be like if you're a cryptozoologist out hiking in the woods in Ohio and come across a dead Sasquatch--the stars have to align perfectly in order for this to happen, and to pretend that it was your research that led you to that spot was disingenuous.

I don't recall anything about her sending out all 10 at a time, just that she had a number of body doubles ready.
Shadowsun made herself a target, tempting the Astartes to try one of the decapitation strikes they are known and designed for. She dangled one of her body doubles in a battle, and Severax jumped in, shredding the double, but shadowsun herself was in a Ghostkeel and ambushed him with a melta cannon.

Chapter Masters are not omnipotent nor omniscient, and can be outmanuevered or outfought. And Severax isn't even the first Chapter Master to die in the fluff recently- Imperial Fists lost Pugh in their supplement.