Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

RoperPG wrote:
From what Matt's written, the Seraphon are summoned into being and are exactly 'themselves' again, so I wouldn't say they're faceless.
They're only 'immortal' in that they aren't technically mortal. They still 'die', until they're summoned again. They don't have a deathless existence, which is kind of the point for immortality.
And while this has no particular effect on anything, the upper limit on summoning Seraphon would presumably be the sum total of all Seraphon the Slann had ever encountered?
I know for some this will be like going through the contents of a latrine with a magnifying glass, but I do think some of the implications are interesting, whether intentionally enigmatic writing or not.
Do individual Seraphon know they aren't 'real'? Do they continue to learn, or are they forever frozen as the Slann remembered them?

Memories don't learn. They are fixed moments in time.

Hell, the memories summoned may not even be the real LM to begin with. Eg: Tim the Slann summons Bob the Kroxigor and Steve the Skink as he remembers them - his perception of Bob may be correct, but he may not know Steve as Steve really was. So it's just Tim's idea of what Steve was.

Now let's go to Bob - and from which in time will Bob be summoned? Before he died? After he spawned? After his first battle? And how will Bob react to the the fact that he isn't in Lustria anymore and is in god knows where?

Or do the Slann have a list of handy, blank slate "memory-grunts" to draw from? The kind that will not even notice the sudden, entire change of the scenery they are in and even the opponent? If so, are these memories Really the Lizardmen?

This is just GW giving unlimited resources to yet another faction - try not to delve too much on it... It'll only make the manure stink more.

 pox wrote:

Everything just feels inchoate. I get its all new lore and getting an idea of what its like takes time, but they need to start stringing it together, and introducing stories that give a relatable viewpoint. Right now it just feels like Valhalla, where everyone fights, and live or die they just get up the next day and do it again, without even getting the feast at the end of the day.

I completely get that.
I absolutely, totally hate background where there's things to figure out.
Not because I think it's lazy writing or anything like that - my mind just obsesses over gaps!
Maybe 10 years ago, this kind of thing wouldn't have happened - but with GW's fear over IP stuff now, wiping the fluff slate clean means that as things are introduced they have better control.
I don't like it, but I understand why they feel they have to do it.
Sigmarines and the Slann fled the mortal realms because they didn't have a choice. They both have major axes to grind with Chaos, but have no hope of generating the numbers to do it.
So they have no option but to resort to magic/fantastical methods to do that, because that's the only option they have.
We've already encountered the Sylvaneth and Skaven in the realms, and they certainly aren't magic reanimations or anything like that. The bloodbound certainly aren't immortal either.
If we start winding up with undying Duardin or immortal Orruks, then we have cause for concern.

RoperPG wrote:

 pox wrote:

Everything just feels inchoate. I get its all new lore and getting an idea of what its like takes time, but they need to start stringing it together, and introducing stories that give a relatable viewpoint. Right now it just feels like Valhalla, where everyone fights, and live or die they just get up the next day and do it again, without even getting the feast at the end of the day.

I completely get that.
I absolutely, totally hate background where there's things to figure out.
Not because I think it's lazy writing or anything like that - my mind just obsesses over gaps!
Maybe 10 years ago, this kind of thing wouldn't have happened - but with GW's fear over IP stuff now, wiping the fluff slate clean means that as things are introduced they have better control.
I don't like it, but I understand why they feel they have to do it.
Sigmarines and the Slann fled the mortal realms because they didn't have a choice. They both have major axes to grind with Chaos, but have no hope of generating the numbers to do it.
So they have no option but to resort to magic/fantastical methods to do that, because that's the only option they have.
We've already encountered the Sylvaneth and Skaven in the realms, and they certainly aren't magic reanimations or anything like that. The bloodbound certainly aren't immortal either.
If we start winding up with undying Duardin or immortal Orruks, then we have cause for concern.

I don't even mind gaps, their lore has always been like that, with conflicting views and outcomes of fights, different "this is how it works," and so on. I've discussed at length the meaning of the two deleted chapters, hints at OTC templates in 40k, and loved the lore in the original tomb kings book hinting there were armies to the north as bog mummies with druid necromancers.

All these are things speculate over throw away lines in the books, or things that may or may not be real because they were written by a madman descending into chaos. (like in the BL books of chaos.) Literally all of the rich background in those books may or may not be real, depending on if you believe the explorer that wrote it. (I especially like him trying to understand warmachines and chaos marines because he witnessed them from the old world point of view.)

It's these gaps where I usually find my armies. The issue with AoS is its all super fantastical for now. I dont need a GM D&D style layout explaining the nuts and bolts of everything and how it works, but I would like SOMETHING more substantive then what we have. Where do people live? what do they eat? how do they spend their free time? I don't care if they eat dreams, sleep in a volcano and watch three headed mutants arm wrestle betting Ur-gold on the outcome while drinking the sleep of ages. Just give me some kind of who/what/where/when/and why.

Who are the members of this fantasy race? what do they do as a society? where do they live and travel? when do they go to war? Why do they fight? None of the books really answer any of these basic questions.

Basically I'd like a BL style study in four or five books on how things in the realm work, and I'd like a generals' compendium to do the same for the rules side of things. (some battle reports would be great for that too!)

How are the warscrolls in the book compare to the free ones that were released when AoS was launched?

I figure this is a good litmus test of the upcoming Orruks and others that will be redone. I'm certainly hoping the silliness will fade away.

Is anything missing?

Pretty sure they are all the same... All the silly rules were on special characters as goodbye jokes, they most likely won't even exist in AoS.

If you look at the azyr comp you'll see some things under Seraphon in italics, those are removed from the battletome.

Mainly special characters but jungle swarms as well.

Perhaps, now having read the book, OP could answer this:

How does a Slann priest compare to Sigmar in power? It is a far fetched question, but I'm interested if the tome says anything about it. Is there any mentioning of their current power level after their "star voyage" (something like "able to shift mountains" in the old setting)?

 CoreCommander wrote:


How does a Slann priest compare to Sigmar in power? It is a far fetched question, but I'm interested if the tome says anything about it. Is there any mentioning of their current power level after their "star voyage" (something like "able to shift mountains" in the old setting)?

That is quite a question.

I think the average Slann is smarter than Sigmar - they make very long-ranged plans and have extremely good memories.

I would guess they have more innate magical power.

But Sigmar has a bunch of people helping him, a ruddy great hammer (which failed to kill anything in the recent AoS event, but that might have just been me), and the whole lightning/storm thing going for him.

Who would win in a punch up? The Slann if he gets a spell off, Sigmar if he gets close enough to whack his hammer in the frog's face. But they would probably just send their armies against one another.

That's actually pretty underwhelming for Sigmar. :/

I'm ok with that. I liked the AoS idea that the Gods (not the chaos powers) themselves although portrayed as mortals achieved divinity are more like mortals achieved unimaginable power through arcane means (something like the Tribunal from the Elder Scrolls series). Actually it is said that Ghal Maraz holds much of his might. They would have vast powers, but it would be only at their disposal (like Sigmar beating entire armies, but couldn't hold the front everywhere). I also liked the idea that Sigmar chose to become more like a "traditional" pantheon deity in giving up much of his power to the Stormcast - the equivalent being Chaos powers and daemons. To see that the Slann are immensely powerful, on par with the "gods" is a something I like and in tune with the "this is an age of gods reborn" theme.

Since the Lizard-deamons/Memories given form is a infinite resource (since a Slann can just re-remember any causalities later) but the Slann themselves can die permanently and never be replaced (right?) is there an explanation for why Slann might appear on the battlefield at all? Why don't they just stay on their spaceships and summon lizards to the surface?

Do they need to be close in order to summon or do the lizard need a Slann nearby to know what to do?

If I go about collecting some lizzies, which have great and tempting minis they will still be just that, lizzies in hidden jungle pockets. Imagining them as memories is a bit err not engaging to me.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Thanks for the info, Matt.

Even though I do rail constantly against AoS, I must admit to beinga bit disappointed that they did go through with the "conjured from dreams" shtick and it feels that GW is trying to provide information without really providing it.
I feel the book would be much more valuable background-wise if they ditched the (very WHFB-reminiscent) trope of providing various possibilities of origin/backstory from different "sources" - while I understand that it does fit into the dreamlike, insubstantial feel they want to give the Lizardmen, at the moment AoS needs firm, concrete background to back it up

But isnt that slaan the whole time? A mystical visionary that could possibly be on of the toughest mental characters? Whats the difference between summoning and using memories? It kind fits the what the higher lizardmen elders can do and are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MongooseMatt wrote:

 CoreCommander wrote:


How does a Slann priest compare to Sigmar in power? It is a far fetched question, but I'm interested if the tome says anything about it. Is there any mentioning of their current power level after their "star voyage" (something like "able to shift mountains" in the old setting)?

That is quite a question.

I think the average Slann is smarter than Sigmar - they make very long-ranged plans and have extremely good memories.

I would guess they have more innate magical power.

But Sigmar has a bunch of people helping him, a ruddy great hammer (which failed to kill anything in the recent AoS event, but that might have just been me), and the whole lightning/storm thing going for him.

Who would win in a punch up? The Slann if he gets a spell off, Sigmar if he gets close enough to whack his hammer in the frog's face. But they would probably just send their armies against one another.

I can see lord kroak up there with sigmar.

Ordered the box of dinosaurs (carnosaur/trog, 2 stegadons and 3 terradons) and the book.

Disappointingly the stuff in the box doesn't make the battalion warscroll, which needs a trog plus 2 stegs/bastiladons and then either Kroxies or sallies/razors. But no terradons. Feels odd. All the other collections are the battalion warscrolls, seems odd that the thunderbeast box isn't a warscroll, but very close to one?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My quick 'review' after one reading.

Fluff:

Pretty bleh. Whilst the fluff isn't that important to me, and I was never into the warhammer fantasy fluff much anyway (loved 40k fluff though), I still used to like reading the background stuff in army books. This one very quickly felt like: Slann (random name generator) takes a dislike to (random enemy) at some place (Random name) and kicks ass. blah blah blah (repeat from start). That might be reading to many of side bars and insets and letting those soak into my memory rather than the rest, but towards the end of the fluff section I was just going through the motions of reading. It didn't really grab me. I probably need to re-read it ignoring the side bars etc as I'm sure the main text was probably better and I let myself get distracted.


Photos of painted models.

Disappointing. I don't know whether I misremember or there has been some change in what they show, but I'm sure the old Eavy Metal stuff used to be a lot more awesome than the models in the photos here. I just couldn't help but be somewhat underwhelmed by the quality of the paint jobs/models. I'm not saying I'm some uber painter cos I'm not, but where I used to look at the Eavy metal stuff in army books/codices and drool at what was beyond my skill I just wasn't here. I can't help but think that the models are exactly the same basic technique as the painting guides (base, shade, layer) rather than let great painters show their best. I'm trying to decide whether it is the color schemes that make them look worse? but I'm not sure. Something though feels less impressive than what used to get presented in old army books in the photo section.

Not a fan of the purple. The last time I remember looking the Nids in 40k were presented in purple and pale flesh, has that painter taken up lizards?

Battleplans.

Ok - couple of scenarios, Main thing was that the stories here were better reading than the fluff section, at least they fleshed out the random hero/villain name and location with a story..

Warscrolls.

Apart from the battalion ones, why? I can get them free on the web. Something like 35 wasted pages (ok some are art and could stay).



Overall I wasn't that impressed. As noted previously the art work generally is very good, but the rest feels a bit of a let down. As my first AOS book it is not selling me on the idea of buying more of them. I was hesitant about getting this one, just because I knew there couldn't be much beyond the battalion warscrolls that I would really want game wise. I just hoped the rest to at least be worth a good read/look. Because I was not expecting much I wouldn't say I'm overly bothered, I sort of knew I might be spending £25 or whatever on something I might not like.

If I look at what I got and what I'd have liked I would suggest in future: Less side bars in the fluff section with very short 'Bob whopped Fred at The Field' type crap. Get rid of the 35 pages of warscrolls that are freely on the web, where they are best kept up to date. Put that extra space into more scenarios and make them longer i.e. take the 'Bob whopped Fred at The Field' bits and flesh them out into scenarios with nice back stories, so that Bob and Fred feel more than just random names, and The Field feels more like a place with some history.

I'd better say that I last used to buy a lot of the GW stuff back around 6th ed warhammer, though I have bought a couple of the later army books just for a read. Also used to buy the 40k stuff around the same time. Apart from a very odd game I haven't played for a few years in either system. AOS is what has got me interested again. I haven't bought any other AOS books yet as fluff stuff generally doesn't bother me (I'm more into the game than fluff stuff), but thought I'd splash out on the book for the army I'm going to go with. My expectations are colored by the army books I used to get rather than any other AOS books.

I personally don't mind the old models. The saurus could use a facelift but the Lizardmen did get new models relatively recently. Don't get me wrong, I love new models, but for instance when I saw the Plague Monks get repackaged I was relieved. My old models are still new! I can rebase them and repaint them and I have up to date guys.

I agree with the detractors regarding their story, though. We need mortal characters to add suspense to the story. Immortal lives don't have much value. I like the idea of Stormcast's memories being wiped clean the more they die but eventually they're all gonna be clean-slate automatons. So we have reforged Stormcast and Lizards that are celestial energy that comes and goes as they're remembered. We need some Khazrak/Todbringer style storylines. We need something mortal to hitch our wagons to.

There is risk to both sides, actually.

The Stormcast do lose their memories and emotions but it's been revealed that this is Nagash's doing for being cheated of his souls. The final result of a Stormcast losing all his emotions may be a soulless pawn of Nagash's instead of a warrior of Sigmar.

The Seraphon are infinite due to their supernatural existence. The Slann are not. Everytime one of them falls the memories of their lost culture and people is destroyed. So what appears a unbeatable force actually has a very notable weakness.

The Slann actually make me think of the game SOMA. Where the last memories of mankind are put in a satellite so that our digitized selves can live on for a thousand years in a artificial paradise as all life on earth is gone.

The Slann are essentially these satellites now.

Some more mortal characters would be welcomed, though.

Baron Klatz wrote:
There is risk to both sides, actually.

The Stormcast do lose their memories and emotions but it's been revealed that this is Nagash's doing for being cheated of his souls. The final result of a Stormcast losing all his emotions may be a soulless pawn of Nagash's instead of a warrior of Sigmar.

Maybe they are going to create Chaos Space Marines style Stormcast Eternals. Holy sheeeeeeeiiiiiittttt can you imagine?