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Just finished rereading about these bad boys (meaning the Hunting Rigs) and had a question: why the feth aren't these things standard issue in the Inquisition? This is basically the best Power Armour imaginable.

I don't think anything is really standard issue in the Inquisiton. But if your inquisitor wanted one, I think it's very plausible they could acquire one.

Assassins would probably use them or something like the tech.

It seems that they as most imperial commanders like to parade in their armour.
There are no skinsuit options for inquisitors, but their henchmen and allies clearly have access to it.
So if they really wanted they could wear it.

Sprye gear is offworld Tau-based stuff, not Imperial STC.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Sprye gear is offworld Tau-based stuff, not Imperial STC.

Sure this is the reason a inquisitor would never use it.
Hides his monkey an, the venom sword and some other stuff behind its back.


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Also quite sure that tau are not the only race building skinsuits, or non stc products.

Of course there are others, just not Xenos tech that a typical Inquisitor would get their hands on or use as potentially Heretical.

Where's the Tau thing come from? Tau didn't even exist when Spyrers first turned up, and they hardly look like tau technology. Apart from anything else, most of the suits are based around melee combat!

In the Tau Codex, there's some not-conicindental references in the Fluff that link directly to the Spyres.

Inquisition has no standard issue bar tons of distrust and suspicion.

They come in all shades and so one may take to getting a hunting rig or 2.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
In the Tau Codex, there's some not-conicindental references in the Fluff that link directly to the Spyres.

It isn't, however, confirmed. Considering how little it makes sense (it uses more advanced technology than the Tau themselves do for instance) it's highly unlikely to be the case. There isn't even any way for the information supposedly recorded to return to the Tau rendering pretty much useless for the Tau to send them off to Necromunda.

I find it more likely that it's archaeotech which would also explain why they're so rare and only noted to have been seen on Necromunda.

Whilst the stat boosts are impressive, I don't think Spyer rigs actually provided that much protection in the grand scheme of things - even the Orrus rig was, I thought, only carapace, not power armour.

An inquisitor's personal suit of armour is far more likely to tend towards artificer plate than power armour (indeed 3 of the named inquisitors wear just that - Soloman Lok, Torquemada Coteaz and Hector Rex)

You might - just as reasonably - ask why an organisation with access to pretty much any item of wargear in the standard imperial arsenal by snapping their fingers doesn't have the option to issue any sort of invulnerable save - not even refractor fields that get handed out to guard captains and colonels...

locarno24 wrote:
Whilst the stat boosts are impressive, I don't think Spyer rigs actually provided that much protection in the grand scheme of things - even the Orrus rig was, I thought, only carapace, not power armour.

An inquisitor's personal suit of armour is far more likely to tend towards artificer plate than power armour (indeed 3 of the named inquisitors wear just that - Soloman Lok, Torquemada Coteaz and Hector Rex)

You might - just as reasonably - ask why an organisation with access to pretty much any item of wargear in the standard imperial arsenal by snapping their fingers doesn't have the option to issue any sort of invulnerable save - not even refractor fields that get handed out to guard captains and colonels...

Because the recent codex/ previous GK entries was half assed and didn't actually have the options and upgrades that should be available for an Inquisitor.............

How is that in any way, shape or form Tau gear? Spyrer Hunting Rigs have been around for thousands of years longer than the Tau have been off that desolate rock they call a home world.

Go get yourself a copy of the original Tau Codex, and read it for yourself.

I have a copy of the original Tau codex, it's not there.

This is the closest you get to 'evidence' from the Tau codex. In the original section on Tau language;

J’kaara – Mirror
Mal’caor – Spider
Y’edli – Winged One (Air caste title for a gifted pilot)
O’res – Powerful

The fact is that the Spyrer suits predate the Tau. They predate the Tau Codex. They predate the tau race. And they go counter to the Tau art of war.

They also involve technology the Tau haven't discovered yet on one hand, like power swords, bolters, power armour that small (even the XV15, the smallest powered Tau armour, is much bulkier than the bulkiest of Spyrer suits), not to mention pulse lasers... while on the other hand being behind the curve - they use standard Imperial/Eldar chameleoline cloaking technology, not Tau stealth field generators.


Not to mention the fact that Necromunda is in the Segmentum Solar, practically on the opposite side of the galaxy from Tau space - father than the Tau even could have traveled since they first started expanding their territory if they sent their fastest ship directly there!

Spyrer hunting rigs as a thing predate the tau codex, and the race being a thing in 40k.

It's never been made clear how long those particular hunting rigs have been used by the up-spire nobles, though. Predating their existence in the game does not necessarily mean they predate them in 40k chronology.

Secondly, a lot of the contact with the Tau (aside from gunfire) has been by rogue traders, who've never been averse to buying the odd bit of xenos technology and selling it on to the nobility at a profit, and they definitely could have made such a trip.

Also note that the spyer hunting rigs are implied in necromunda to contain 'off-world technology' - it's never that I recall stated that they're built lock, stock and barrel by the tau - the orrus' bolt weapons, for example, are clearly stock(ish) imperial technology, and whilst the technological concept of the power sword isn't something beyond the tau understanding, they don't do that sort of thing as a rule.

Nothing says that bits of the hunting rig aren't tau in origin, though, and the fact that the rig names are tau words hints that when creating the tau as a race, GW retroactively decided that the source for those bits was the tau empire.

The problem is that none of the Spyrer gear looks like Tau gear - if anything, it looks Eldar.

Okay, so a couple of things here:
1) If the Tau were able to make Mirror Shields that absorbed energy weapon fire, why haven't they integrated it into their standard-issue wargear (or, at the very least, a more refined version of it)?
2.) If the Tau were able to make Power Armour that's that small, then why aren't their stealth suits that small?
3.) The Tau have yet to demonstrate any examples of Power Swords that follow the same logic as Imperial Power Swords
4.) Spyrer Hunting Rigs look like nothing the Tau have ever been purported to make
5.) Tau have never been reported to have chameleoline technology, instead they use holographics to create a state of virtual invisibility.
6.) The Spyrers have been hunting the Hives of Necromunda for thousands of years, and their supply of Hunting Rigs is well beyond that which a single Rogue Trader picking up a few could have provided without constant shipments (which wouldn't have been very profitable, unless you're saying that a Rogue Trader couldn't organize regular shipments of HUnting Rigs to closer Hive Worlds to the Tau, which is bullshonkey).

An Inquisitor in Henry Zou's novel Emperor's Mercy wears an Orrus hunting rig and confirms that it (and its integrated shield generator) is tau xenotech.

It's possible that the current hunting rigs are simply amalgamations of tau, Imperial, and other Xenos technology, and they simply originated with some early tau design disseminated into Imperial space by an enterprising Rogue Trader long before the tau ever met the Imperium formally.

There are a variety of reasons the tau haven't incorporated technology they could create into their operating forces. Hunting rigs may simply be technology or capability demonstrators gifted to Rogue Traders as a posturing tool, they could be intentional misdirections to Imperial intelligence, they could be experimental ventures that would be too costly to mass produce, or perhaps they simply conflict with tau doctrine and so aren't incorporated.

Except the Hunter Rigs have been around since long before the Tau learned how to rub 2 sticks together to make fire. That Novel just means it might have some integrated Tau tech, not that the suit itself is Tau in origin(which is impossible)

DoombringerATT wrote:
There are a variety of reasons the tau haven't incorporated technology they could create into their operating forces.

How about the obvious one: cost.

A Spyrer suit is a tool for the nobility.

Perhaps it is a the equivalent of having a personal superyacht, and requiring similar resources to construct, placing it entirely out of the hands of all but the highest ranking nobility in the ruling house of a Hive World.

In that context, it's not something you'll find among the Tau, who have that whole Communism theme and mindset. And the integral Xenotech keeps it away from most Xeno-hunting Inquisitors. Also being non-STC keeps it out of the AdMech.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except the Hunter Rigs have been around since long before the Tau learned how to rub 2 sticks together to make fire. That Novel just means it might have some integrated Tau tech, not that the suit itself is Tau in origin(which is impossible)

Actually, when the Tau first got introduced there was a specific mention in Codex: Tau(which I no longer have on hand) that the Inquisition had tracked the origin of the most recent Spyrer Hunting Rigs back to worlds on the border with the Tau.

They suspected that the Hunting Rigs had recording devices within them.

Which really just means that some Hunter Rigs have some Tau tech in them which someone probably added to an existing rig. Not that the Rigs originated with the Tau in the first place.

I'm inclined to agree that nothing necessarily says the Hunting Rigs are 100% tau technology, but the naming conventions point toward something more than a happy coincidence and certainly imply a tau origin or base template.

Or'es (Strong) - Orrus
J'kaara (Mirror) - Jakara
Mal'caor (Spider) - Malcadon
Y'eldi (Winged) - Yeld

Grey Templar
While the Hive Spyrers have certainly been around and conducting their hunts for longer than the tau have been an Empire, do you have a source that says they've been using their Hunting Rigs the entire time? We don't have a clear indicator of exactly when Necromunda acquired these suits.

Given the state of technology in the Imperium, I think the base assumption should always be that a piece of technology has been in use for thousands of years unless there is evidence to the contrary.

Kanluwen wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except the Hunter Rigs have been around since long before the Tau learned how to rub 2 sticks together to make fire. That Novel just means it might have some integrated Tau tech, not that the suit itself is Tau in origin(which is impossible)

Actually, when the Tau first got introduced there was a specific mention in Codex: Tau(which I no longer have on hand) that the Inquisition had tracked the origin of the most recent Spyrer Hunting Rigs back to worlds on the border with the Tau.

They suspected that the Hunting Rigs had recording devices within them.

Which just means that the newer Tau Hunting Rigs were cheaper for Rogue Traders to pick up. Emphasis being on newer

DoombringerATT wrote:An Inquisitor in Henry Zou's novel Emperor's Mercy wears an Orrus hunting rig and confirms that it (and its integrated shield generator) is tau xenotech.

It's possible that the current hunting rigs are simply amalgamations of tau, Imperial, and other Xenos technology, and they simply originated with some early tau design disseminated into Imperial space by an enterprising Rogue Trader long before the tau ever met the Imperium formally.

There are a variety of reasons the tau haven't incorporated technology they could create into their operating forces. Hunting rigs may simply be technology or capability demonstrators gifted to Rogue Traders as a posturing tool, they could be intentional misdirections to Imperial intelligence, they could be experimental ventures that would be too costly to mass produce, or perhaps they simply conflict with tau doctrine and so aren't incorporated.

Jakarra seems to fit perfectly into Tau doctrine, as does the Matriarch Armour. Other than that, those are legit reasons.

Grey Templar wrote:Given the state of technology in the Imperium, I think the base assumption should always be that a piece of technology has been in use for thousands of years unless there is evidence to the contrary.

This. So much this. 90% of the tech that you find that's really cool has been in service for thousands and thousands of years, or has been in production for thousands and thousands of years.

DoombringerATT wrote:I'm inclined to agree that nothing necessarily says the Hunting Rigs are 100% tau technology, but the naming conventions point toward something more than a happy coincidence and certainly imply a tau origin or base template.

Or'es (Strong) - Orrus
J'kaara (Mirror) - Jakara
Mal'caor (Spider) - Malcadon
Y'eldi (Winged) - Yeld

Grey Templar
While the Hive Spyrers have certainly been around and conducting their hunts for longer than the tau have been an Empire, do you have a source that says they've been using their Hunting Rigs the entire time? We don't have a clear indicator of exactly when Necromunda acquired these suits.

Imperial High Gothic seems to be based upon Latin. If that is the case, then the names are actually pronounced (using ecclesiastical pronunciation, not classical):
Orrus - are-ooh-s
Jakara - jah-kah-rah
Malcadon - mall-cah-doh (like the sound Homer Simpson makes)-n
yeld - exactly as it sounds

Other than names, though, is there anything to really support the Inquisitor's claim that the Hunting Rigs are Tau in origin? Do we know that he was talking about Hive Primus of Necromunda, and not some other Hive World? Tau have never demonstrated examples of Power Weaponry outside of reverse-engineered Imperial Power Fists during the Damocles Crusade. How would they put Power Swords onto the Hunting Rigs, if they don't themselves have the technology? Why haven't we seen similar energy absorption systems (to the Mirror Shield) on the Tau commanders' Battlesuits? If the Tau have this kind of technology, then why haven't we seen it at the very least in the higher echelons? Why don't Tau Stealth units use Battlesuits that are this small? afaik, the Tau have never been purported to make Power Armour that's this small. And, most of all, where is the logic?

EDIT: I'm not discounting the idea of them being Tau, I just don't think that it makes any sense.

Grey Templar
You mean evidence like an Inquisitor's internal monologue confirming that the Orrus suit he was using was tau tech?

I am having difficulty following your line of reasoning. You're asserting that Spyrer suits were in use long before the Tau Empire existed, based on a presupposition, which multiple sources have invalidated in this particular instance.

Unless there's some tidbit of background out there that depicts or mentions Spyrer suits and chronologically predates the Tau Empire's existence, your assertion that the Spyrers must have always used them doesn't hold water.




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Dusara
I'm not asserting that every aspect of the suits is tau in origin. They may be combinations of many species' technologies, since Spyrers are known to "evolve" their suits' capabilities with aftermarket upgrades and tinkering.

You quoted a variety of reasons I gave that adequately explain why these technologies wouldn't be used by the tau themselves.

Oddly enough though, one of the technologies you just mentioned, the Mirror Shield, operates remarkably similar to the Tidewall gunline shields...

Except that the Tidewall shield is new technology that's just been approved for field tests, and the Spyer's Mirror Shield must be at least two decades old for it to have even reached Necromunda long enough ago that it's in moderately common usage by Spyrers.

I guess that I could see how Tau tech could get incorporated into the Hunting Rigs.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Except that the Tidewall shield is new technology that's just been approved for field tests, and the Spyer's Mirror Shield must be at least two decades old for it to have even reached Necromunda long enough ago that it's in moderately common usage by Spyrers.

This could actually be explained by the Tau using the Spyrers as guinea pigs for tech that might potentially have dangerous side effects. So the Spyrers actually got the Mirror Shield before the Tau forces got the Tidewall because the Tau thought it might cause cancer or something, and wanted to observe the long-term effects. Not a canon backed explanation, but the thought does amuse me.

And yeah, the suits would certainly not be 100% Tau tech. Orrus suits use bolter technology. Lots of the suits are also kitted for close combat in ways the Tau probably would find unnappealing. So we're looking at Tau/Imperium tech hybrids, quite probably with some archeotech and other xenos tech thrown in as well. The suits are a hodgepodge, poorly understood by even the people who use them. To the Mechanicum, they're tech heresy, which by itself prevents their widespread usage in Imperium forces. An enterprising Inquisitor might use one, but Necromunda is one planet in a very big galaxy, and the Hunter Rigs are a closely guarded secret.