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Hey guys, new to Warhammer, in fact im a spahs mahrine over on the 40k side, in fact it was warhammer vermin tide that got me interested in fantasy battle, oddly enough right when it got killed off.
Any ways, with talking to my friends who are much MUCH more ingrained with the lore and game, i have found out there is a general dislike of AoS, for obvious reasons, they took a wonderful thriving world and literally said, it, lets blow it all up and start all over. Which to me, seems like the worst way to progress a story.
They threw out the idea that they are waiting for GW to come out and say something stupid like, "And then Thanquol woke up." and just retcon the whole thing.
But do you guys thing that if AoS does so bad, GW will just retcon it and pretend it was a what if scenario? and write in that the end times nerver happened? This is not a question of do you want them to, but rather a do you think they will if sales become worse then Warhammer sales.
I'm not sure what will happen; honestly, I don't think GW has ever gotten quite the backlash that they've received over AoS, which is a little sad considering some of the crap they've pulled (Spots the Space Marine positively leaps to mind).
I do not, however, expect Age of Sigmar to survive in its current form. GW's either going to have to put a lot more effort in, or toss it completely. What that means for the Old World...I'm not sure, but I don't think they'd put it back together again the way most of us want it.
I'm with Spinner - I don't expect AoS to survive as is, but GW is way too stubborn for its own good and I am pretty sure they will blame the players for the fall of AoS, not themselves.
And even though they did Retcon the entirety of the Storm of Chaos campaign, I really doubt they'll do this with AoS.
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
AoS has been seen by, well, basically everyone as GW's attempt to salvage Fantasy after they ran it into the ground.
If AoS doesn't work for them they won't go back to Fantasy, they'll just let the whole thing die a slow death like Hobbit and the specialist games before it.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
And although I don't play it AoS is doing quite well at my FLGS. Admittedly some people dropped it altogether, some people adapted to it and other people who hadn't played before got really into cause it didn't have the complicated lists and rules of 40k and fantasy. But if my store is any representation then AoS is doing fine.
"That's how a Luna Wolf fights."
"If you can't keep up, go and join the Death Guard"
"It had often been said that Space Marines knew no fear, but when Angron charged, he ran"
If AOS fails, they are probably going to take it as a signal that there is not enough interest in Warhammer Fantasy, and kill it off entirely, same as they did with Battlefleet Gothic.
If so, the only thing we are going to be seeing from the Old World is the occasional video game.
It could also go the same way as Lotr/the Hobbit. They still sell the miniatures, but apart from that they never give it any attention anymore.
Not so fast with the Doom of Age of Sigmar. The concept of the game and the setting was never to please the actual Fantasy crowd, but to bring new blood. There's no point to please a stagnant gamer demographic that can't support the game.
What I observe with Age of Sigmar is people who are interested more in the miniatures and crafting than the game it self.
At my Job, one person got the starter box. Then, an other person, then 2 more persons. The player archetype for this product is way different than 40k or the old Fantasy.
So now, what GW hopes, is to see it grow. From 0 (rejection from the actual crowd) to a tiny core made from enthousiatic fresh blood, who will become the evangelist of AOS. That loyal tiny core will recruit new players in the next few years, and they won't go after the 40k players or the Old Fantasy player.
No, they will go after people who show interest and who are unfamiliar with miniature games.
This is what I'm already observing. The hate wave is almost over. The people who wanted to quite already have.
GW is not stupid, we just don't see the plan from their perpective.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/09 21:30:27
No, just like Nintendo didn't stop making consoles after the Gamecube... People doomsay on forums, no matter the subject, doesn't mean it will happen. There's no reason to believe anything will happen to AoS. Like people here are saying the most drastic measure that is likely is a v2 of the rules in a year or two, perhaps with a points system.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/09 22:24:35
I'm sure WHFB won't make a return, at least not in the way a lot of the previous players would like it to.
Along with what everyone has said here, I've noticed the emphasis on role playing (to a degree) within AoS is really winning people over. At my FLGS we've started an AoS campaign that followers a rather entry level character around numerous battles and scenarios; they recruit troops depending on previous game results, gain notoriety which 'unlocks' named characters, monsters, war machines, etc., and even find magic items. The latter bringing back nostalgic Mordheim feels!
It hasn't taken off wonderfully and there weren't many players, but each person really got involved and we're all forging narratives that will develop through what is quite a casual tournament. Obviously it's a rather individual approach from my FLGS and I don't know how likely GW are to take such an approach, but it's working nonetheless.
3,500 (and building) ASM 3,000 Blood Angels 1500 Eldar (abandoned)
AoS - Beastclaw Raiders, Ironjawz, Night Goblins, and Ogors - Destruction remains unvanquished!
Bottle wrote: I think more structure will be put in eventually. Points probably, but as an additional suppliment for tournament style play.
That would quell most of the flames.
It won't be points. That would require updating all the warscrolls and existing battletomes. The alternative would be releasing a list with all the point values for the existing models, and that doesn't seem likely to me because it would also require constant updating (and it's something they couldn't sell). It's much more likely that they stick to some sort of martial prowess formula, like the school rules, where you calculate a value from existing stats.
I also don't think you'll see any tournament rules - at least not in the strictly competitive sense. Thus far, the tournaments have been largely cooperative with a bunch of different scenarios, with the tournament winners being the most sportsman player rather than the "winner". It doesn't seem like AoS is built around competitive play, and to turn it into a balanced, competitive game would require more under the hood changes than simple point values.
Iron_Captain wrote: If AOS fails, they are probably going to take it as a signal that there is not enough interest in Warhammer Fantasy, and kill it off entirely, same as they did with Battlefleet Gothic.
If so, the only thing we are going to be seeing from the Old World is the occasional video game.
It could also go the same way as Lotr/the Hobbit. They still sell the miniatures, but apart from that they never give it any attention anymore.
I agree. If what people have said about fantasy doing so badly sales-wise is true, there's no way there going to go back to it. If AoS fails, I think that the whole thing will be gone for good.
Bottle wrote: I think more structure will be put in eventually. Points probably, but as an additional suppliment for tournament style play.
That would quell most of the flames.
It won't be points. That would require updating all the warscrolls and existing battletomes. The alternative would be releasing a list with all the point values for the existing models, and that doesn't seem likely to me because it would also require constant updating (and it's something they couldn't sell). It's much more likely that they stick to some sort of martial prowess formula, like the school rules, where you calculate a value from existing stats.
I also don't think you'll see any tournament rules - at least not in the strictly competitive sense. Thus far, the tournaments have been largely cooperative with a bunch of different scenarios, with the tournament winners being the most sportsman player rather than the "winner". It doesn't seem like AoS is built around competitive play, and to turn it into a balanced, competitive game would require more under the hood changes than simple point values.
A paid for app that updates with points value would be one idea GW could use. Another could be to have them available online as a document that gets updated. They wouldn't need to alter any of the existing warscrolls and having them separate would mean they could support both styles of play.
If they expanded on the school league rules (which I am a big fan of), I would be thrilled. I am a big fan on AoS anyway, but I think the lack of structure is the biggest obstacle for many players getting into the game.
Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-)
I agree. If what people have said about fantasy doing so badly sales-wise is true, there's no way there going to go back to it. If AoS fails, I think that the whole thing will be gone for good.
They can't go back to WHFB in the terrible state that they left it in. If they fixed the horrible mess that they made and redesigned the game, putting some actual effort into the game design process, from first principles then that would be a different story.
RamRam wrote: Not so fast with the Doom of Age of Sigmar. The concept of the game and the setting was never to please the actual Fantasy crowd, but to bring new blood. There's no point to please a stagnant gamer demographic that can't support the game.
What I observe with Age of Sigmar is people who are interested more in the miniatures and crafting than the game it self.
At my Job, one person got the starter box. Then, an other person, then 2 more persons. The player archetype for this product is way different than 40k or the old Fantasy.
So now, what GW hopes, is to see it grow. From 0 (rejection from the actual crowd) to a tiny core made from enthousiatic fresh blood, who will become the evangelist of AOS. That loyal tiny core will recruit new players in the next few years, and they won't go after the 40k players or the Old Fantasy player.
No, they will go after people who show interest and who are unfamiliar with miniature games.
This is what I'm already observing. The hate wave is almost over. The people who wanted to quite already have.
GW is not stupid, we just don't see the plan from their perpective.
Please, GW is not an all-seeing, amazingly prescient company so don't paint them as such.There are many, many reasons why even AoS supporters can tell you that GW can be very, very stupid, actually. But nevermind that, really.
What you call "hate wave" will keep existing just as the game will exist, as it will only gather disdain or mild mockery from the FB players who didn't pick it up after ET or the 40k players that see it as a pale attempt at 40k fantasy-style.
I agree. If what people have said about fantasy doing so badly sales-wise is true, there's no way there going to go back to it. If AoS fails, I think that the whole thing will be gone for good.
They can't go back to WHFB in the terrible state that they left it in. If they fixed the horrible mess that they made and redesigned the game, putting some actual effort into the game design process, from first principles then that would be a different story.
Exactly.
But I really doubt they would retcon the fluff even if they redesigned the game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/10 09:18:49
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
I don't think they'll retcon it, but I think it'll get Hobbited once the currently planned releases are done. They'll just stop talking about it and eventually it'll disappear from the stores without a whisper.
They'll regard the failure of AoS and the Hobbit as the failure of the fantasy genre as a whole, and just drop it.
Herzlos wrote: I don't think they'll retcon it, but I think it'll get Hobbited once the currently planned releases are done. They'll just stop talking about it and eventually it'll disappear from the stores without a whisper.
They'll regard the failure of AoS and the Hobbit as the failure of the fantasy genre as a whole, and just drop it.
I am hoping FFG will then discreetly come in and pick up the ball from GW and do a decent game out of it.
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: I'm with Spinner - I don't expect AoS to survive as is, but GW is way too stubborn for its own good and I am pretty sure they will blame the players for the fall of AoS, not themselves.
Word is that they are blaming the sales staff for its low sales (and it has had low sales) as the managerial team is very happy with the game.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: I'm with Spinner - I don't expect AoS to survive as is, but GW is way too stubborn for its own good and I am pretty sure they will blame the players for the fall of AoS, not themselves.
Word is that they are blaming the sales staff for its low sales (and it has had low sales) as the managerial team is very happy with the game.
I wonder how bad would the AoS sales have to be for us to see a crack on the January report already... Abysmal, I'd guess.
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: I'm with Spinner - I don't expect AoS to survive as is, but GW is way too stubborn for its own good and I am pretty sure they will blame the players for the fall of AoS, not themselves.
Word is that they are blaming the sales staff for its low sales (and it has had low sales) as the managerial team is very happy with the game.
I wonder how bad would the AoS sales have to be for us to see a crack on the January report already... Abysmal, I'd guess.
Lower than WFB sales was the talk from one of the more well known online retailers. That's just them, mind. It could be going great guns in other places. I expect that GW will blame the cost of launching the game as a reason for the dip in sales, then mention that they expect things to build from there, with plenty of chat about how its a great new shiney product that is the best thing they've done in a long time. You can use ANY model you like (as long as we sell it)
toasteroven wrote: If AoS fails, I think that the whole thing will be gone for good.
This is the current scuttlebutt around Nottingham - if AoS falls, say goodbye to all Fantasy as we know it.
Do you have a source for that? Not doubting you (it's what most people expected), but I'm interested.
Having sources at GW is kinda difficult. They're NOn-disclosured up to the eyeballs, so demonstrating who they are will only get them in trouble.
I'd suggest given Matt's previous that we can take it as read he has a social level of access to certain interested parties...
I have a friend who works in the studio and even on vague things like 'How do you guys play rule X?' he's beyond evasive.
toasteroven wrote: If AoS fails, I think that the whole thing will be gone for good.
This is the current scuttlebutt around Nottingham - if AoS falls, say goodbye to all Fantasy as we know it.
Do you have a source for that? Not doubting you (it's what most people expected), but I'm interested.
Having sources at GW is kinda difficult. They're NOn-disclosured up to the eyeballs, so demonstrating who they are will only get them in trouble.
I'd suggest given Matt's previous that we can take it as read he has a social level of access to certain interested parties...
I have a friend who works in the studio and even on vague things like 'How do you guys play rule X?' he's beyond evasive.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: I'm with Spinner - I don't expect AoS to survive as is, but GW is way too stubborn for its own good and I am pretty sure they will blame the players for the fall of AoS, not themselves.
Word is that they are blaming the sales staff for its low sales (and it has had low sales) as the managerial team is very happy with the game.
That's insane. I think it's a great game and I want them to keep supporting it for decades to come, but obviously that means being able to respond to the community and not burying your head in the sand...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/10 11:27:05
toasteroven wrote: If AoS fails, I think that the whole thing will be gone for good.
This is the current scuttlebutt around Nottingham - if AoS falls, say goodbye to all Fantasy as we know it.
Do you have a source for that? Not doubting you (it's what most people expected), but I'm interested.
Having sources at GW is kinda difficult. They're NOn-disclosured up to the eyeballs, so demonstrating who they are will only get them in trouble.
I'd suggest given Matt's previous that we can take it as read he has a social level of access to certain interested parties...
I have a friend who works in the studio and even on vague things like 'How do you guys play rule X?' he's beyond evasive.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: I'm with Spinner - I don't expect AoS to survive as is, but GW is way too stubborn for its own good and I am pretty sure they will blame the players for the fall of AoS, not themselves.
Word is that they are blaming the sales staff for its low sales (and it has had low sales) as the managerial team is very happy with the game.
That's insane. I think it's a great game and I want them to keep supporting it for decades to come, but obviously that means being able to respond to the community and not burying your head in the sand...
Well, start praying to the Four because you just described GW's MO.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: I'm with Spinner - I don't expect AoS to survive as is, but GW is way too stubborn for its own good and I am pretty sure they will blame the players for the fall of AoS, not themselves.
Word is that they are blaming the sales staff for its low sales (and it has had low sales) as the managerial team is very happy with the game.
I wonder how bad would the AoS sales have to be for us to see a crack on the January report already... Abysmal, I'd guess.
Lower than WFB sales was the talk from one of the more well known online retailers. That's just them, mind. It could be going great guns in other places. I expect that GW will blame the cost of launching the game as a reason for the dip in sales, then mention that they expect things to build from there, with plenty of chat about how its a great new shiney product that is the best thing they've done in a long time. You can use ANY model you like (as long as we sell it)
IFAoS is selling less than FB did, I can't see GW supporting it more than a couple of years. In its current state, that is.
Edit: The interesting question to me is if they will still make Fantasy models even if they stop supporting AoS as a Game System.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/11/10 11:37:01
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
it, lets blow it all up and start all over. Which to me, seems like the worst way to progress a story.
Please, 
