Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The only reason a game like Blood Bowl didn't "survive" is because GW decided to stop selling it. Even still, there are tons of "fantasy football" indiegogo / kickstarter / etc campaigns and teams sold by third party companies. If GW put in even a modicum of support, it would do very well!

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
For older gamers, I can't deny that the nostalgia appeal is a strong pull, but if these games didn't survive last time, then there's no reason to suggest it could work this time in a different climate.

There is competition this time, unlike the 90s.

For Necromunda, the Judge Dredd miniatures game is a great match. Established background and a great game to play.

For Mordheim, read Frostgrave or even the Mordheim videogame when it comes out. Less work to do.

For Blood Bowl, read Guildball or various other wacky versions on the market.

For epic, FOW has filled the void for me, and the miniatures are cheaper.

And of course, what about the communities that have invested time and effort in keeping specialist games alive? I doubt if they'll welcome GW turning up and telling them to sling their hooks.

You're clutching at straws. This is a great move from GW that will make many wargames very happy no matter how desperate you are to spoil people's fun.

It also shows a certain level of 'desperation' at GW's part, or maybe it's the beginning of a big radical change for the company. I mean, WFB got 'canned', the "break glass in case of emergency" promise that are plastic HH models, and now the return of the Specialist Games are signs of this.

However, if this is a path GW will continue to walk, I'm very curious to see what they'll try to do next!

http://trolls.myshopify.com/collections/6mm-warfare

Trolls Under the Bridge hit with a cease and desist for their 6mm stuff. They did historical and sci-if I think, just saw it on Yakromunda, apologies if it's been posted.

I only fear what these games would cost if rereleased. Epic would undoubtedly be the most expensive game (counting all 6-15mm games) of it's type on the market.

 RiTides wrote:
The only reason a game like Blood Bowl didn't "survive" is because GW decided to stop selling it. Even still, there are tons of "fantasy football" indiegogo / kickstarter / etc campaigns and teams sold by third party companies. If GW put in even a modicum of support, it would do very well!

But WHY did they decide to stop selling it?

In the history of mankind, I seriously doubt that people stopped selling something because it was too successful, therefore you can only conclude that sales were poor.

Bear in mind this was the 90s, when WD was selling well, people liked GW and GW's market share was a lot higher than it is now.

If Blood Bowl struggled in favourable conditions years ago, there is no reason to suppose it will prosper in this current climate of declining sales for GW, an indifferent community, and a WD that's on its last legs.

IMO the downfall of the previous SG games was that the business model was not sustainable. By their nature they were small in scope. Once a person has their Delaque gang.. they have it.. there's no need to buy more miniatures. This was offset by the ability to bitz order and Necromunda bits were awesome for IG players.
The new GW business model of relying on their books and supplements is more in line with being able to sustain Necromunda and the like. That's why I really think they need to push towards x-pacs off of a standalone self-contained game and ditch the idea of blisters.
If they do that, there's still a "terminal velocity" of sorts for the sales.. but there's still also room to play. A combination of rules supplements and miniatures + content.. it gives a lot of flexibility as we've seen from CMoN time and again.

I don't care much .... They will cancel them later probably.

 Bottle wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
For older gamers, I can't deny that the nostalgia appeal is a strong pull, but if these games didn't survive last time, then there's no reason to suggest it could work this time in a different climate.

There is competition this time, unlike the 90s.

For Necromunda, the Judge Dredd miniatures game is a great match. Established background and a great game to play.

For Mordheim, read Frostgrave or even the Mordheim videogame when it comes out. Less work to do.

For Blood Bowl, read Guildball or various other wacky versions on the market.

For epic, FOW has filled the void for me, and the miniatures are cheaper.

And of course, what about the communities that have invested time and effort in keeping specialist games alive? I doubt if they'll welcome GW turning up and telling them to sling their hooks.

You're clutching at straws. This is a great move from GW that will make many wargames very happy no matter how desperate you are to spoil people's fun.

Clutching at Straws? I've got a field full of hay bales. No shortage of straws here.

I think wait and see is the best approach. While this seems like a good idea for their business, we need to remember this is gw.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I only fear what these games would cost if rereleased. Epic would undoubtedly be the most expensive game (counting all 6-15mm games) of it's type on the market.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees the inherent problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MLaw wrote:
IMO the downfall of the previous SG games was that the business model was not sustainable. By their nature they were small in scope. Once a person has their Delaque gang.. they have it.. there's no need to buy more miniatures. This was offset by the ability to bitz order and Necromunda bits were awesome for IG players.
The new GW business model of relying on their books and supplements is more in line with being able to sustain Necromunda and the like. That's why I really think they need to push towards x-pacs off of a standalone self-contained game and ditch the idea of blisters.
If they do that, there's still a "terminal velocity" of sorts for the sales.. but there's still also room to play. A combination of rules supplements and miniatures + content.. it gives a lot of flexibility as we've seen from CMoN time and again.

It's hard to see how Necromunda can compete with other sci-fi skirmish games that are as equally as top notch.

For example, in the Judge Dredd game, you can buy 1 miniature for £5, a mercenary, and ally it with a friend's gang.

Best value for money I've ever seen. Quick to paint as well.

I have the X-wing box set, and all my friend had to do was buy the Millennium Falcon and he was good to go.

Cheap and easy, and hard for GW to compete with.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
But WHY did they decide to stop selling it?

In the history of mankind, I seriously doubt that people stopped selling something because it was too successful, therefore you can only conclude that sales were poor.

Why did Coca Cola stop selling Coke back in 1985 in favor of New Coke? Were the sales of Coke that poor?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
For Necromunda, the Judge Dredd miniatures game is a great match. Established background and a great game to play.

I like the Necromunda fluff. I have no interest in Judge Dress. It is not a substitute.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
For Mordheim, read Frostgrave or even the Mordheim videogame when it comes out. Less work to do.

I like the Mordheim fluff and a computer game is not a board game. It is not a substitute.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
For Blood Bowl, read Guildball or various other wacky versions on the market.

I like the Bloodbowl fluff, teams, sense of humour and style. It is not a substitute.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
For epic, FOW has filled the void for me, and the miniatures are cheaper.

Glad it filled your void. Some of us like the 40K fluff, and prefer to play 40K-based games than whatever-based games that happen to have a similar style. It is not a substitute.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
And of course, what about the communities that have invested time and effort in keeping specialist games alive? I doubt if they'll welcome GW turning up and telling them to sling their hooks.

They could turn around and feth over the communities the same way they attempted assassinated the Blood Bowl community, but I don't think them that stupid, especially if this is being done under the auspices of FW.


When 40K went to gak the reason I started writing my own version rather than jumping to Warmachine, Hordes or whatever is because I like 40K, and I don't like Warmachine/Hordes. The game is only one aspect of 40K, the aesthetics and universe/background plays a massive role. Too often people here go "Well just switch to game XYZ". No. I don't have any interest in game XYZ.

 Bottle wrote:
You're clutching at straws. This is a great move from GW that will make many wargames very happy no matter how desperate you are to spoil people's fun.

Except that this is not the first time GW has done something like this. They were all excited to put the SG together, reissued some rulebooks, and promptly stopped supporting SG games before even a quarter of the teams/armies were reissued.

What's important is that GW's support is a meaningful one.

Specialist games originally collapsed because the entire product line for several games was being carried by just two people. Forgeworld and Horus Heresy has reminded GW that a niche product line can do well when given enough support as part of a cohesive strategy. I think its GW's realization that the opportunity cost of not supporting these games in the past has been a loss of market share as similar enough games have proved to be profitable. I think even GW knows that can't rely so heavily on their Space Marine sales forever.

Apparently Battle at Calth is to be regarded as their first effort and make it seem like GW's CEO, who formerly headed FW, Black Library, and the old Specialist Games, is setting up the new Specialist Games to have a strong enough success under its belt so as to guarantee it has enough autonomy and resources to continue.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
But WHY did they decide to stop selling it?

In the history of mankind, I seriously doubt that people stopped selling something because it was too successful, therefore you can only conclude that sales were poor.

Why did Coca Cola stop selling Coke back in 1985 in favor of New Coke? Were the sales of Coke that poor?

That was a re-branding exercise that went horribly wrong, which is completely different to ceasing production altogether.

No. That was a new product, not just 'rebranding'.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
For Necromunda, the Judge Dredd miniatures game is a great match. Established background and a great game to play.

I like the Necromunda fluff. I have no interest in Judge Dress. It is not a substitute.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
For Mordheim, read Frostgrave or even the Mordheim videogame when it comes out. Less work to do.

I like the Mordheim fluff and a computer game is not a board game. It is not a substitute.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
For Blood Bowl, read Guildball or various other wacky versions on the market.

I like the Bloodbowl fluff, teams, sense of humour and style. It is not a substitute.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
For epic, FOW has filled the void for me, and the miniatures are cheaper.

Glad it filled your void. Some of us like the 40K fluff, and prefer to play 40K-based games than whatever-based games that happen to have a similar style. It is not a substitute.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
And of course, what about the communities that have invested time and effort in keeping specialist games alive? I doubt if they'll welcome GW turning up and telling them to sling their hooks.

They could turn around and feth over the communities the same way they attempted assassinated the Blood Bowl community, but I don't think them that stupid, especially if this is being done under the auspices of FW.


When 40K went to gak the reason I started writing my own version rather than jumping to Warmachine, Hordes or whatever is because I like 40K, and I don't like Warmachine/Hordes. The game is only one aspect of 40K, the aesthetics and universe/background plays a massive role. Too often people here go "Well just switch to game XYZ". No. I don't have any interest in game XYZ.

A very long winded way of saying that they weren't substitutes for you, which is fair enough.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
For Blood Bowl, read Guildball or various other wacky versions on the market.

I like the Bloodbowl fluff, teams, sense of humour and style. It is not a substitute.

Guild Ball is an amazing substitute for Blood Bowl and if anything, eclipses it in the same way Jupiter eclipses Pluto. I played Blood Bowl back in the day and I enjoyed it, but Guild Ball is a fantastic rule set which wipes the floor with Blood Bowl.

YMMV of course

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
The only reason a game like Blood Bowl didn't "survive" is because GW decided to stop selling it. Even still, there are tons of "fantasy football" indiegogo / kickstarter / etc campaigns and teams sold by third party companies. If GW put in even a modicum of support, it would do very well!

But WHY did they decide to stop selling it?

In the history of mankind, I seriously doubt that people stopped selling something because it was too successful, therefore you can only conclude that sales were poor.

Bear in mind this was the 90s, when WD was selling well, people liked GW and GW's market share was a lot higher than it is now.

If Blood Bowl struggled in favourable conditions years ago, there is no reason to suppose it will prosper in this current climate of declining sales for GW, an indifferent community, and a WD that's on its last legs.

It is my understanding the wargaming (and boardgame) markets are much bigger now and continue to grow. There is already a big enough market to support a few fantasy sport games. The big daddy returning should be able to cut a nice big slice of that pie.

In the mid 90s GW philosophy was to constantly develop new games for their customers. All games outside the flagship games were expected to have a limited lifespan and were eventually replaced by other games by GW.

Over the 00s it was decided that they were canabalizing sales from the flagship games and so phased out (coinciding with the stopping of metal production).

Now GW is starting to wake up and realise the market is a lot bigger now and the time is right to bring some of these games back to capitalize on that!

 Ghaz wrote:
No. That was a new product, not just 'rebranding'.

As Shakespeare once said, a Coke by any other name, is still a Coke

And I'm pretty sure that auto-correct has spelt the Bard's name wrong, as well.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I only fear what these games would cost if rereleased. Epic would undoubtedly be the most expensive game (counting all 6-15mm games) of it's type on the market.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees the inherent problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MLaw wrote:
IMO the downfall of the previous SG games was that the business model was not sustainable. By their nature they were small in scope. Once a person has their Delaque gang.. they have it.. there's no need to buy more miniatures. This was offset by the ability to bitz order and Necromunda bits were awesome for IG players.
The new GW business model of relying on their books and supplements is more in line with being able to sustain Necromunda and the like. That's why I really think they need to push towards x-pacs off of a standalone self-contained game and ditch the idea of blisters.
If they do that, there's still a "terminal velocity" of sorts for the sales.. but there's still also room to play. A combination of rules supplements and miniatures + content.. it gives a lot of flexibility as we've seen from CMoN time and again.

It's hard to see how Necromunda can compete with other sci-fi skirmish games that are as equally as top notch.

For example, in the Judge Dredd game, you can buy 1 miniature for £5, a mercenary, and ally it with a friend's gang.

Best value for money I've ever seen. Quick to paint as well.

I have the X-wing box set, and all my friend had to do was buy the Millennium Falcon and he was good to go.

Cheap and easy, and hard for GW to compete with.

Price really isn't everything, other things matter, too. Cheap and easy isn't really a great label. Not sure what you think X-Wing would be comparable to - surely not BFG, that's an entirely different kind of game.

Well, just taking a broad, speculative view, I'd suspect that specialist games were abandoned because if you're looking at ROI, the core games were by far and away a better bet, so from a purely financial perspective, it made sense to invest in those and not spend capital on a product which offered a much lower percentage return.

That decision probably made a lot more sense however many years ago that was initially decided, when barriers to entry were much higher for new manufacturers and the market itself was much smaller, making GW in essence a very large fish in little more than a puddle.

The flaw in that thinking was Kirby (presumably) failed to appreciate the very important role that SG played in keeping players suffering burnout from the core games within the GW ecosystem, as well as providing a creative outlet for players who's other armies were "finished."

Couple that with a very slow realisation that it has become progressively easier for other companies to fill the void the absence of these games has left, and the failure to address the fact that it was happening, and you end up at the current situation.

Bringing them back makes complete sense, other competitors have taken the risk and proven there is an appetite for these games, and GW is in a place to capitalise on that appetite like no other wargaming company.

It will be irrelevant if (insert game here) is the most expensive example of it's kind, as long as the quality of product on offer is sufficient for the price in most people's view, it will sell.

All games outside the flagship games were expected to have a limited lifespan and were eventually replaced by other games by GW.

That's not how they sold it to me back then.

I spoke to Jervis years ago at games day, and I received personal guarantees that the specialist games were here to stay.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
No. That was a new product, not just 'rebranding'.

As Shakespeare once said, a Coke by any other name, is still a Coke

And I'm pretty sure that auto-correct has spelt the Bard's name wrong, as well.

Except once again, it wasn't just a name change. They actually changed the product. You're ignoring facts because it doesn't support your argument.

I would like to see a GW 64 General Tourney.

1st Game: BFG Top 32 go to next phase;
2nd Game: Epic Top 16 go to next phase
3rd Game: 40k Top 8 go to next phase
4th Game: Necromunda Top 4 go to next phase
5th Game: Inquistitor Final 2 go to next phase
6th Game: Actual 1x1 combat in a GW official Octogon!

Get this set up and I will Judge free of charge.

Forgot the Fantasy side!

1st Game: Dreadfleet/Man O War Top 32 go to next phase
2nd Game: Warmaster Top 16 go to next phase
3rd Game: Warhammer Fantasy Top 8 go to next phase
4th Game: Blood BowlTop 4 go to next phase
5th Game: Mordheim Top 2 go to next phase
6th Game: Actual 1x1 Combat in GW Official Octogon!

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

All games outside the flagship games were expected to have a limited lifespan and were eventually replaced by other games by GW.

That's not how they sold it to me back then.

I spoke to Jervis years ago at games day, and I received personal guarantees that the specialist games were here to stay.

Well, he wasn't wrong, was he?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I only fear what these games would cost if rereleased. Epic would undoubtedly be the most expensive game (counting all 6-15mm games) of it's type on the market.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees the inherent problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MLaw wrote:
IMO the downfall of the previous SG games was that the business model was not sustainable. By their nature they were small in scope. Once a person has their Delaque gang.. they have it.. there's no need to buy more miniatures. This was offset by the ability to bitz order and Necromunda bits were awesome for IG players.
The new GW business model of relying on their books and supplements is more in line with being able to sustain Necromunda and the like. That's why I really think they need to push towards x-pacs off of a standalone self-contained game and ditch the idea of blisters.
If they do that, there's still a "terminal velocity" of sorts for the sales.. but there's still also room to play. A combination of rules supplements and miniatures + content.. it gives a lot of flexibility as we've seen from CMoN time and again.

It's hard to see how Necromunda can compete with other sci-fi skirmish games that are as equally as top notch.

For example, in the Judge Dredd game, you can buy 1 miniature for £5, a mercenary, and ally it with a friend's gang.

Best value for money I've ever seen. Quick to paint as well.

I have the X-wing box set, and all my friend had to do was buy the Millennium Falcon and he was good to go.

Cheap and easy, and hard for GW to compete with.

You say that ... but even as a Judge Dredd fan, I have zero interest in a Dredd miniature game. I know of it. I have seen it and looked over the rules. Frankly though, the premise doesn't do it and a lot of the miniatures are gak.
If you had said Deadzone.. eh.. I'd maybe agree.. I don't like it very well, but there is a following. If you said Infinity, I'd be like.. Oh.. ok.. yeah..that's a hugely popular game! If you had said Warmahordes.. which.. is kinda fantasy but kinda futuristic.. I'd even nod a bit... but Judge Dredd? I kinda feel like you want them to bring Andy and Gav back to make amends. That's ok.. if it's what you're looking for. If I am misreading between the lines, just excuse me.
If your point was a game based on an established IP.. I kinda don't see the relevance of established IP or not.. but by that token, look at the Batman and now Marvel miniature games. I don't think GW should even try to compete with any of the games you've mentioned though. ALL of those games are still contingent upon the trickled release of blisters. At that point it becomes a game of attrition. They have to approach it from outside of the arena and establish it more as a tabletop/boardgame type of situation. Maybe not boardgame per se but set up that type of environment (as I previously said). Trying to beat anyone at their own game is a fool's errand. Change the rules and win the game by default.

Anyway.. I see you keep bringing up X-Wing, and that's fine. I know it's a popular game right now and you're right.. Star Wars is massive. I'm a fan myself. That did not stop Halo's fleet game from coming out though. AFAIK, it launched well. I don't know if it's thriving or sustainable but I do know that the pre-sale for it was pretty successful. I also know that the Star Trek spaceship game fell flat on it's face. Having a franchise doesn't mean you have an instant win.
I also know, from following Andy Chamber on Facebook ...or.. maybe it was Twitter.. There's a BFG video game coming out and Andy is consulting on it. So.. take that as you will.

nekooni wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I only fear what these games would cost if rereleased. Epic would undoubtedly be the most expensive game (counting all 6-15mm games) of it's type on the market.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees the inherent problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MLaw wrote:
IMO the downfall of the previous SG games was that the business model was not sustainable. By their nature they were small in scope. Once a person has their Delaque gang.. they have it.. there's no need to buy more miniatures. This was offset by the ability to bitz order and Necromunda bits were awesome for IG players.
The new GW business model of relying on their books and supplements is more in line with being able to sustain Necromunda and the like. That's why I really think they need to push towards x-pacs off of a standalone self-contained game and ditch the idea of blisters.
If they do that, there's still a "terminal velocity" of sorts for the sales.. but there's still also room to play. A combination of rules supplements and miniatures + content.. it gives a lot of flexibility as we've seen from CMoN time and again.

It's hard to see how Necromunda can compete with other sci-fi skirmish games that are as equally as top notch.

For example, in the Judge Dredd game, you can buy 1 miniature for £5, a mercenary, and ally it with a friend's gang.

Best value for money I've ever seen. Quick to paint as well.

I have the X-wing box set, and all my friend had to do was buy the Millennium Falcon and he was good to go.

Cheap and easy, and hard for GW to compete with.

Price really isn't everything, other things matter, too. Cheap and easy isn't really a great label. Not sure what you think X-Wing would be comparable to - surely not BFG, that's an entirely different kind of game.

Agree with you on price, but Judge Dredd is a fantastic game to play.

Unlike other games, your miniatures react when they get shot at. They do things like take cover and return fire. Imagine that in a game.

Henshini wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
There's no need, there's already perfectly good rulesets out in the wild, all we need is straightforward access to appropriate models.

Unless you're talking about fan edits, which I expect GW will explicitly ignore, all of the specialist games I've played(Mordheim, Necromunda and BFG) all have their faults and could use a 2.0. I'd be mildly disappointed if GW simply re-released the last version of the rules they published but I'd be really sad if they did something stupid like make a space marine gang for Necromunda.

A space marine gang for necromunda would be immense! Have you seen the work FW are putting into the black shields in heresy book 6? It's one of the things I'm most excited about and would fit necromunda perfectly. It also would be a fantastic throwback to rogue trader marines.